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Posted: 4/7/2009 5:30 AM
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Azorae
Player (98)
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida
Two questions, and they're both minor. 1) After Snowhead, we get 1 bomb drop from the grass. I'm assuming you mean the large clumps of grass, and it should be just as fast to get 2 drops. This would avoid the small detour in Ikana to get the bomb drop near the tree. 2) Though I'm not quite sure, I would imagine that the enemies in STT would do 1/2 damage when they explode, like most explosives. It would probably be better to take a full heart of damage here and skip taking damage from the Leever. Other than that, it looks perfect.
Posted: 4/7/2009 9:26 AM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (603)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Nintendo 3D TAS of 2014 N64/Wii TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 N64/Wii TAS of 2011
1) nope, it's from one single plant 2) they do 3/4 damage, when you hit them and they explode
Posted: 4/7/2009 11:26 AM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
I agree that SL can restart, as there is one thing we know for sure and that is that we only need 200r in the first cycle, since we have a lot of big and fast potential rupee sources on the way (Takkuri, 4x Zora game etc.)and we are minimizing bank-transfares. However I think we still have to fine-tune a few things in the route...
MrGrunz wrote:
Here's the final route with a Death Warp out of Stone Tower:
I really hate deathwarps but I guess it can't be helped.
SoDT when you are 9 and a half in-game hours away from the Ranch houses
That won't work since woodfall is now longer. Let's say directly before or after the FFWW to inkana.
Flying Zora to Fountain, Blow up Rock with Chu, New Fairy Fountain Strat (12B) (10C)
Are you still working on your other FF-glitch? Do you still think it's possible? If so we really ought to know. And it would be nice if you told us what it is and how it's supposed to work. ;)
Get 3 Deku sticks from Dekus and 1 Deku Stick from pot on the way to Woodfall Temple
We sill need to check out if we can reduce this number with broken sticks.
Warp to CT, Buy 20 Chus, Leave to GB (0R) (1B) (20C) ISG-ISS to bush, Get 15 Bombs, Jump down ledge, ISS to other Bush, Get 10 Bombs + 20 Rupees, ISG-ISS to Rock, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, 3 Bombchu Hovers, SS to Epona, Get Bottle (20R) (17B) (17C)
Can't you somehow save one bomb before this? It would really save quite some time if you would just megaflip over the ledge out of a HISS and get all of your new bombs out of the bushes down there. Also we could still get the 10r in the woods of mystery and buy some more bombs, so we don't have to get this much drops and can megaflip over the ledge. Should still be faster. And we are still not clear how long killing the Takkuri actually take. It could very well be that it takes about as long as the detour we have to take for the zora game and the extra rupees could be used to buy bombs instead of getting bombs. This route really isn't a 100% planned through yet and I don't like that you are trying to sell it to us as such. ;) SL and petrie what do you think about the route so far?
Posted: 4/7/2009 11:45 AM
(Edited: 4/7/2009 12:11 PM)
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (603)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
Nintendo 3D TAS of 2014 N64/Wii TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 N64/Wii TAS of 2011
takuri is slower, it takes years to kill him and the zora games gives us a convenient bomb drop I have a nice strategy over to the milk road. it should work without that bomb, but it would only work, if we could get 20 bombs while sliding through the bushes ;) I'll try to manipulate 20 bombs and 20 rupees out of the bushes, hopefully it will work tell me how the infinite deku stick trick works or what you did, then I'll test it edit: how are we exactly going to get those 10 rupees from the lost woods? another thing we could do would be to get 10 bombs before the pots game, so we could blow up the last snowball while sliding up to snowhead temple, what should save some time and maybe we could skip th ikana bomb drop as well I included those 10 rupees in the route already, because we need them to have 80 rupees, so we can buy 20 chus, but I still need to know, how we're going to get them
Posted: 4/7/2009 12:05 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
I'm pretty sure that when you TAS it the Takkuri doesn't take much longer than 15 seconds. A Zora game takes 7 seconds, the detour you have to go is quite consideribly. Furthermore you dont get enough money of it. more money = less bomb drops you have to get (I know it's not that much since we only come back to CT once after this but still) you can get 2x blue rupees from the bushes at the beginning (or end for that matter) of the woods of mistery. Shouldn't take to much time. You can combine it with waiting for the bomb to explode at the beginning (if you would use a chu here it's slightly slower but not by much)
Posted: 4/7/2009 12:17 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (603)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
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hmm, hmm, skipping bomb drops. I don't think, that this is possible. we go shopping only one time after takkuri and then we only need 10 bombs and we have the rupees for those 10 bombs I have a nice idea to improve our route ;) why not go to the GB fountain again after beating GBT and do FFWW backwards to snowhead? then the bomb drop after GBT costs no time anymore and it would skip one SoS. we wouldn't able to get the 2 deku sticks anymore, so this should only work, if the infinite deku stick idea would work can you tell me, what you did in your testings for this trick? another bomb drop we could get would be the stone before flying to zora fountain the first time. my idea didn't work, btw. I'll try to save one bomb at the woodfall boss key skip and if this turns out to be impossible, we'll get those 5 bombs from the stone
Posted: 4/7/2009 12:31 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
The platform we land on with the flying Zora has also stones. Are there bombs in them? I don't think getting a bomb drop after GBT from the bushes takes much time. After the temple yyou get warped there... If going back to GBFF is a good idea would have to be timed out. Sure it saves a song of SoS but the swim takes some time... nice thing is we have the hookshot at this point, so entering shouldn't be a problem... Edit: But yeah in the end it's probably faster. If you use the FF in woodfall you have to switch a lot of items around and deku-fly and stuff. Maybe we should think about playing the Zora game before doing the first FFWW again. We have enough space for the money from one game and we have to play the SoDT later anyway, since woodfall is now slightly longer. If we do it then we can spead our money better acros the route...
MrGrunz wrote:
can you tell me, what you did in your testings for this trick?
Edit: sorry what was here before was me not understanding you correctly. To get a broken deku stick I basically just smashed the button they are on. I got it to work with the Owl and Dogongos. It didn't work with normal walls. So maybe it has something to do with the recoil you get from those or that taya locks in on them... But I'm pretty sure as long as the enemy is big enough you can get the broken stick if you press the c-button they are on again after a specific frame. Edit: Oh and just now I got it to work on a big stone (those which cover holes in the ground an can be blown up) I guess it works on everything that isn't as solid as a rock wall... Edit: OK now it even worked on a wall. XD The easies way is certainly when you hit something and hit something after it through the recoil. In this case you don't even have to hit the C button again... Maybe that's even the whole trick and I allways got it by accident. you have to hit something while being recoiled by the first hit. Where it works every time is in GB between the rock and the wall... Also I think if you take damage when link is swinging the stick back you get the broken stick. To sum things up after my 1000 edits: Once the stick is broken link throws it away with a swing. If the swing is interrupted by hitting another thing or taking damage, Link will keep the broken stick. (though I think it has to be damage that gives you recoil. fire doesn't work)
Posted: 4/7/2009 5:26 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (603)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
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it's better to do the zora pots game on the way to GBT, I think getting the bombs after GBT still takes 2 seconds and those 2 seconds would be completely eliminated. If I'm right, we can simply swim out of the area, so it warps us back to the beach maybe we should play our zora pots game at this point :/
Posted: 4/7/2009 6:08 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
afaik you respawn where you came in when you swim out and besides the way would be far to long. And I think playing the game at the beginning is better since it let's us choose our bomb drops more freely. There is at least no downside as far as I can see.
Posted: 4/7/2009 6:26 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (603)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
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hmm, but it shouldn't change our bomb drops after GBT, we should simply swim over to the fountain and not do any warps the reason, why I want to do zora pots game before GBT are those 2 bomb drops from the stone ;) one rock is directly on the way to the pots. we won't get this rock on our first trip to the fountain. even if we can't use infinite deku sticks, it should be still faster to beat wizrobe without deku sticks and use GB fountain to snowhead. the stones doesn't drop anything, sadly :( so the changes to the old route are: bomb drop from stone on the first trip to the GB fountain, 2x bomb drop on the way to zora pots game before GBT, GB fountain used twice, megaflip at rahcn access edit: I've just noticed, that we can't cut the grass while pulling out a bomb and sliding with ISG, so we would have to get all the 4 bomb drops from the last few bushes. I'll see, if we can get 4 bomb drops and 20 rupees while sliding through them. if we can't manipulate the red rupee, we simply get it from the chest next to one zora egg. edit 2: can you explain the deku stick thing in german to me? and do you have ICQ? then we could finish the route there edit 3: I have the solution for our milk road access problem. we don't get the extra bomb drop on the way to the first fountain, we simply do it like this: ISG-ISS, get 15 bombs from first bushes, mega flip from enemy, ISS over to bush, get 10 bombs and 20 rupees
Posted: 4/7/2009 7:39 PM
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DemonStrate
Joined: 4/18/2006
Posts: 179
Location: East Petersburg, PA
I'm gonna post this in here and in the OoT thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJAFu1TiTxQ A couple of questions about some possibilities with this: Could you combine this with superslide to add more force, and basically make the SS faster? From my understanding of SS, the initial explosion has the most force, but has anyone ever tried to add additional force while SSing?
"I think we can put our differences behind us... for science, you monster."
Posted: 4/7/2009 8:32 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (603)
Joined: 2/8/2009
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we know that in the SDA irc for a long time already the only useful place for this are death warps. it can't speed up a ESS or something, because the Hyper infinite superslide uses the knockback speed from the bomb and this is the maximum speed we can gain from damage ;) it also works only in OoT and doesn't requier ocarina. you can do it with a lot of things, like zelda's letter etc. just to prove, that we really know it for a while already ;)
Posted: 4/7/2009 8:46 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
OK in german: Ich hab mal ein video gemacht: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZF_P9DB-ho&fmt=18 Im großen und ganzen basiert das ganze darauf, dass du den Dekustick abbrichst, den Schwung aber nicht zuende führen kannst, sodass der Stick nicht weggeschmissen wird. Das passiert indem du nach dem Abrruch noch etwas anderes triffst (wie in den ersten beiden beispielen im Video) oder aber das du in der zwischenzeit getroffen wirst, wie bei den Dodongos. jedenfalls gehe ich bei den Dodongos davon aus, dass das der Grund ist, könnte aber vielleicht auch ein anderer sein. Probiers einfach selbst mal aus. ^^ Falls du sonst noch fragen hast meine ICQ-Nummer: 92797148 Nur bitte in die Bestätigungsanfrage schreiben wer du bist, ich lass nicht jeden zu. :D Zoragame am Anfang: Ich denk einfach es kann nichts schaden und ich denke es ist etwas besser gelegen für zur Fountain schwimmen als später wenn wir zum Tempel schwimmen. Das wir nach dem tempel normal zur fountain schwimmen ist klar und ich hab ja auch schon gesagt, dass das wirklich der Schnellste Weg sein dürfte.
Posted: 4/7/2009 9:46 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (603)
Joined: 2/8/2009
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we get no bomb drops at our first trips to south bay and on our second trip we get 2 bomb drops from the stones, which are directly on our way over to the pots, so doing it like this should save 3 seconds or something ;)
Posted: 4/7/2009 10:10 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (603)
Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656
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I'm trying to TAS the milk road access at the moment and it isn't possible to slide over the grass and collect bombs without stopping the slide I'll see, what a normal ESS does
Posted: 4/7/2009 10:18 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
We could also always revisit the idea of of paying for more bombs. One Zora game more and one more bank transfare add up to 17s seconds but I have the feeling at the moment, that all those bomb drops also add up. For example stones aren't the fastest way to get items as you have to throw them first... Those 17 seconds extra would mean 6 less drops we have to get... What do you think?
Posted: 4/7/2009 10:30 PM
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DemonStrate
Joined: 4/18/2006
Posts: 179
Location: East Petersburg, PA
MrGrunz wrote:
we know that in the SDA irc for a long time already the only useful place for this are death warps. it can't speed up a ESS or something, because the Hyper infinite superslide uses the knockback speed from the bomb and this is the maximum speed we can gain from damage ;) it also works only in OoT and doesn't requier ocarina. you can do it with a lot of things, like zelda's letter etc. just to prove, that we really know it for a while already ;)
Somehow, I'm still not convinced. A test that someone (wink wink MrGrunz) could try is to put a bomb down in front of you, throw a bomb behind you, use the front bomb to SS off of, and have it timed so when the bomb that was behind you explodes, it is in front of Link's shield during a SS.
"I think we can put our differences behind us... for science, you monster."
Posted: 4/7/2009 10:55 PM
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snorlax
He/Him
Joined: 5/20/2007
Posts: 174
Location: Wisconsin
I'm more curious to know if that trick could speed up any of the boss fights or smaller battles in either game. I don't think you know until you try.
Posted: 4/7/2009 11:31 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (603)
Joined: 2/8/2009
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the good thing is, that the multiple hits thing only works in OoT, so it can't change the route, in which we spend so much time already we don't use any bombs during boss battles and bombs doesn't make much damage, so I can't see any uses for it
Posted: 4/8/2009 2:38 AM
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snorlax
He/Him
Joined: 5/20/2007
Posts: 174
Location: Wisconsin
Just because you don't use any bombs during battles doesn't mean you can't. If the glitch doesn't work though, then the point is moot.
Posted: 4/8/2009 12:59 PM
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MrGrunz
Experienced player (603)
Joined: 2/8/2009
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bombs don't do as much damage like a sword, deku stick or bow, so how should this be useful? OoT is also really limited with the number of bombs, so this shouldn't be really helpful for boss battles
Posted: 4/8/2009 4:44 PM
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DemonStrate
Joined: 4/18/2006
Posts: 179
Location: East Petersburg, PA
MrGrunz wrote:
bombs don't do as much damage like a sword, deku stick or bow, so how should this be useful? OoT is also really limited with the number of bombs, so this shouldn't be really helpful for boss battles
You do realize it doesn't matter that much that it doesn't do alot of damage. The point is that on bosses where you normally have to wait for them after you hit them 1 time, you can hit them multiple times with bombs. If this is possible. it can reduce some bosses that took more than 1 cycle down to 1 cycle, because you can hit them more than the normal amount of times during that cycle. This is all based on the assumption that pulling out the ocarina (or whatever other items it works with) does remove the cooldown that yourself (and enemies) have in between getting hit. But, more than likely, the cooldown is for getting hit is just completed by the time the ocarina is taken away, and instead, the bomb explosion damage duration is just extended from pulling out the ocarina.
"I think we can put our differences behind us... for science, you monster."
Posted: 4/8/2009 5:31 PM
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Yeah but since it won't work in MM what's the point of discussing it in this thread?
Posted: 4/8/2009 6:41 PM
(Edited: 4/8/2009 10:35 PM)
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Slowking
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Ok final route heavily copied from MrGrunzs route (with 1-2 improvements we discussed on ICQ) First Cycle get 2r right after you get turned into a Deku (2r) hear grandmas storys twice and dance with the scarecrow, deposit the 2r get to ECT, do a full run through termina field to WCT (101r) get to ECT, get fairy, do a half run through termina field to NCT, get 99r, get magic, deposit the rupees (200r) Second Cycle Hit CT Owl, Withdraw 200R, Buy Bomb Bag + 20 Chus (70R) (20B) (20C) ISG-ISS to Fence, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, Hover over Fence with Bomb and Chu, SS to GB (17B) (19C) ISS to Water, Hit Owl, Get Zora Mask, Leaver Slide to South Bay (16B) (19C) Flying Zora to Fountain, Blow up Rock with Chu, Play SoDT (at least somewhere around here), New Fairy Fountain Strat (12B) (10C) SS to Owl, Hit Owl, 5 Bombs from Plant, Recoil Flip with Bomb down to River, Swim to Swamp, Go to Lost Woods, Get 10 Rupees, ISS from Bombchu, Get Bottle (15B) (9C) ISS to Octo, Sidehops to Deku Palace, ISG-ISS past Deku Guards, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, Use old Zora Jump Strat, Get Sonata + SoS (11B) (9C) Get 3 Deku sticks from Dekus and 1 Deku Stick from pot on the way to Woodfall Temple, Enter Temple Mega Flips past Gap, Kill Lizarfos with Jumpslash Strat, Get Bow (9B) (8C) Recoil Flip to get OoB, 8 Mega Flips, Kill Odolwa (1B) (0C) Warp to CT, Buy 20 Chus, Leave to GB (0R) (1B) (20C) HISS to bush, Megaflip of the blob down the ledge, ISS to other Bush, Get 20 Bombs + 20 Rupees, HISS of red blob to Milk Road, ISG-ISS to Rock, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, 3 Bombchu Hovers, SS to Epona, Get Bottle (20R) (17B) (17C) Warp to GB, Swim to Pirate's Fortress, Mega Flip past Gap, Get Hookshot, Zora Egg, Recoil Flip with Bomb to second Zora Egg, Deposit Eggs (14B) (16C) Back to Pirate's Fortress, Skip Pirate Battle with 4 Bomb Hovers + 2 Mega Flips, Skip second Pirate Battle with Recoil Flip from Bomb, Deposit Eggs, Get rest of Zora Eggs, Learn NWBN (7B) (15C) Play Zora Pots Game one time + get 10 Bombs from Stone + get 1/4 heart damage from leaves, Go to South Bay Owl, Get 5 Bombs, Enter GBT (110R) (17B) (15C) Mega Flip past Gap, Boss Key Skip with Bomb Staircase + 2 Bomb Hovers + 2 Mega Flip, Kill Gyorg + 1 Heart damage from Gyorg, Get 5 Bombs from pot (14B) (12C) Get back to GBFF, Fairy Fountain Wrong Warp with new Strat, ISG-ISS up to Snowhead Temple (9B) (4C) Block Skip, Azorae's Bridge Room Strat, Scarecrow Song Skip, Beat Wizrobe with 2 Arrows and 2 Deku Sticks, Get Fire Arrows, Hookshot to Torch (7B) (4C) 3 Bomb Hover + 1 Bombchu Hover to Snowballs, Bomb + Fire Arrow + 1/2 damage from Bomb, Strategy to Blow Up Snowballs (3B) (3C) Mega Flip past Gap, Boss Key Skip, Kill Goth by ISS over to perfect shoot position (0B) (0C) Get 5 Bombs from plant, Warp to CT, Buy 20 Chus + 10 Bombs, Warp to Ikana, Pull out Bomb while walking to plant, Get 5 Bombs, ISS up to Stone Tower (19B) (20C) Climb Stone Tower with Mega Flips, enter ST (9B) (13C) Bomb Staircase + Sidehop strategy past Sun Block, Get small key and minimize Magic Meter, so you can only use 4 Fire Arrows anymore (7B) (9C) Bomb Staircase + Zora Grab Trick past Sun Block, Get 10 Bombs from enemys + 3/4 Heart Damage from enemy, Recoil Flips in Updraft Room, Kill Garo's Master with 4 Deku Sticks, Death Warp (12B) (6C) Play SoS, Inverted Stone Tower with Mega Flip, Bomb Long Jump past first room, Boss Key Skip, Kill Twimmold with Fire Arrow Strat (5B) (1C) Warp to CT, Use new strat for Clock Tower early, SS to Kid, Kick ass of Majora's Mask, EPIC WIN (1B) (0C) So SL what do you think?
Posted: 4/8/2009 7:46 PM
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SwordlessLink
Experienced player (504)
Joined: 1/12/2007
Posts: 682
Gameboy TAS of 2010 TAS of 2007 N64 TAS of 2007
The route looks solid. Good work, all of you. Just one question, though... Are you sure it would be fastest to get the 2 rupees when we become Deku Link? I think it's faster to get them at the very start of the game, as it only takes about a second to cut a plant and they're directly on the sidehopping path. It's also possible to "cut" the plants by rolling through them, but neither me nor Bloob (who I asked to test) could get more than 1 rupee doing this (I was able to get a blue rupee by cutting the plant).
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