Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
It depends only on what question he asks. Once he has asked his question, the place you will be teleported to when you present him with the wrong item has been decided, and is not in any way affected by randomness. You can reset the question by presenting him with the correct item. Here's a table of where you will be teleported depending on the question:
Skull: Red carpet hallway
Horseshoe: The room where you get the horseshoe and water
Mirror: Coffin room
Bellow: Library (with the glasses)
Broom: Troll bridge
Map: Globe room (with the bellow)
Just so it's documented, you don't actually have to get the Sphinx to ask the question before presenting him with the wrong item. If you use an item that answers a riddle, or the flute, on the Sphinx before he's asked his question then he'll teleport you. I'm not sure how that's determined, especially if you use the item that would have actually answered his question. I believe once you've used an incorrect item, it'll lock that location and always send you there (probably locks the question as well).
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
After some digging, I learned that the broom question is the default - so if you present him with a wrong item before he has asked any question, you will be teleported to the troll bridge. This also means that if you use the broom on him before even talking to him it will answer his question correctly! This is not in any way random - it should always work. Very interesting, it should definitely be nice in your console speedrun, now that you won't have to worry about the question randomness. It might save time in the TAS too, since you will skip a dialogue.
This is probably how it looks:
*You walk up to the sphinx.
*The sphinx looks at you in silence.
*Still in silence, you pull out the broom and show it to him.
*He nods approvingly and says "you have answered my question correctly."
*You walk past him.
That's a strange occurrence, I could have sworn I walked up to him once, showed him the map and then was teleported to the coffin room without him asking a question. This was after answering his first question though, so maybe after answering it will fluctuate.
I posted on SDA as well, but the main points are:
Do we pick up the broom after using the cloak but before key 3 or do we skip bottle 2 during the first pass?
How does this affect teleporting with the Sphinx to the coffin room later on?
It's really good to have that consistency in a console run, and it'd be great if teleporting to the coffin room was also somehow deterministic.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
ZenicReverie wrote:
That's a strange occurrence, I could have sworn I walked up to him once, showed him the map and then was teleported to the coffin room without him asking a question. This was after answering his first question though, so maybe after answering it will fluctuate.
I posted on SDA as well, but the main points are:
Do we pick up the broom after using the cloak but before key 3 or do we skip bottle 2 during the first pass?
How does this affect teleporting with the Sphinx to the coffin room later on?
It's really good to have that consistency in a console run, and it'd be great if teleporting to the coffin room was also somehow deterministic.
Here are some more details on this:
The game has a RAM address (0x4FB) determining what question the sphinx has asked. This has a value between 0 and 5, for the six different questions. When the game starts, this address has value 0, which corresponds to the broom question. The only way this address can change is when the sphinx asks you a new question. Even after having presented the sphinx with the correct item, the value of this address remains, so if you present him with the wrong item after answering correctly, you will be teleported according to the question he just asked.
The game programmers probably gave this RAM address the start up value 0 as in "has not been set yet" and didn't consider that the value 0 corresponds to one of the questions.
In order to get teleported to the coffin room later on, we will simply have to make the sphinx ask the map question, which will set the teleportation to the coffin room. This will as usual require some luck to get him to ask this very question.
As for when to pick up the broom and how it affects item order, I haven't really looked into this. I will put it on my todo-list. :)
EDIT: I just double checked the broom trick, and it works (at least on the U version on emulator). Nice!
The game programmers probably gave this RAM address the start up value 0 as in "has not been set yet" and didn't consider that the value 0 corresponds to one of the questions.
In order to get teleported to the coffin room later on, we will simply have to make the sphinx ask the map question, which will set the teleportation to the coffin room. This will as usual require some luck to get him to ask this very question.
Ah well, almost looked like smooth sailing at that point. So after the Broom query is done and stuff gotten and gone back, then it's a matter of pure luck/frame specific goodness to pull it off? Argh.
And does this 0 Value always queue up on a fresh power-up on a console.. or is it simply emu based and then on a console it remains as cross your fingers?
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Just another random gamer
----
<OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
This address is always 0 at start up (at least in my experience), so it should work every time on console too.
You are right in that this route will require the sphinx to ask the correct question in order to pull off the teleportation to the coffin room. However, this teleportation is not in any way required in a speedrun, and you might want to play it safe and use the old route. The coffin room teleportation does save about 4 seconds, but if you decide to skip it in a console speedrun, and use this new broom trick, there is no random element left in the route, which can be very convenient.
So far it seems accurate on console. Worked 3 out of 3 times.
At least we've only got one luck reliant part now instead of two. If you like it better, and if you're grabbing the flute, you could grab the map instead, manipulate that question, and then use the flute on the sphinx before getting it to ask another. Though probably not that helpful, if you use the route I suggested to use scepter and ring early, then you could use the flute on the sphinx to get to the troll bridge. Not as cost effective time-wise, but you avoid all sphinx riddle dialogue. The time cost between the two is probably a second or two, so it's close.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
I just finished re-TASing this game with the new broom trick - it saved an amazing 142 frames (2.37 sec)! This means that this run is 444f (7.4 sec) faster than the published run. I picked up the broom right before using key 3 in the mirror room. I picked up bottle 2 in the rope room, as before. Item order worked out beautifully, so that was not an issue. Here's the new run:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1768869385/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2.fm2
I just finished re-TASing this game with the new broom trick - it saved an amazing 142 frames (2.37 sec)! This means that this run is 444f (7.4 sec) faster than the published run. I picked up the broom right before using key 3 in the mirror room. I picked up bottle 2 in the rope room, as before. Item order worked out beautifully, so that was not an issue. Here's the new run:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1768869385/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2.fm2
This is now officially disgusting! I LOVE IT!
I never thought this run would ever be improved so much, Let alone 7 freaking seconds!
Hurray for cross collaboration!
Edit: Was Key 3 Used as the most convienient item in the inventory to get booted to the coffins, or would almost any Non-Sphinx item do so if done on the correct frame?
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Just another random gamer
----
<OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin wrote:
Randil wrote:
I just finished re-TASing this game with the new broom trick - it saved an amazing 142 frames (2.37 sec)! This means that this run is 444f (7.4 sec) faster than the published run. I picked up the broom right before using key 3 in the mirror room. I picked up bottle 2 in the rope room, as before. Item order worked out beautifully, so that was not an issue. Here's the new run:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1768869385/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2.fm2
This is now officially disgusting! I LOVE IT!
I never thought this run would ever be improved so much, Let alone 7 freaking seconds!
Hurray for cross collaboration!
Edit: Was Key 3 Used as the most convienient item in the inventory to get booted to the coffins, or would almost any Non-Sphinx item do so if done on the correct frame?
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Thank you! Your encouragement is always a big motivation. :) As for using Key3 on the sphinx, any item will do (it is only the frame you do it on that matters), and I chose key3 simply because it was the fastest to move to.
Thank you! Your encouragement is always a big motivation. :) As for using Key3 on the sphinx, any item will do (it is only the frame you do it on that matters), and I chose key3 simply because it was the fastest to move to.
So essentially for a console run, it's gonna come down to getting to that point and praying you get the 1 in 6 warp you require. That is actually very reasonable considering what it would've been before discovering the Broom tactic.
I wonder how much more of this game is left to be ripped apart before moving focus to the other 2 gems. :) I mean I doubt I'd ever make a good dissection of Deja Vu again.. but then again these finds here give me hope. :)
Thanks for taking the time to dissect this in such a comprehensive manner.
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Just another random gamer
----
<OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
Looking good. I have some suggestions, many of them minor.
Speak Epor instead of Using it.
take key 3 then sphere? I'm not sure if this would be faster, but maybe you'll be closer to the mini-map?
Use hammer, then cloak, take broom, use key 3? This seems like a better order, but unsure if it'd save frames.
I've been opening map, then going up ladder, but I'm not sure it's probably slower.
Did taking an extra torch not help save time by keeping the scepter and staff on the last page? You didn't mention testing this. You could use the torch while paging to the spells.
It's cool that the sphinx warp actually saves enough actions that you get to save the torch use until you get to the flute.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
ZenicReverie wrote:
Speak Epor instead of Using it.
Thank you, 8 frames saved by this.
ZenicReverie wrote:
take key 3 then sphere? I'm not sure if this would be faster, but maybe you'll be closer to the mini-map?
This is only 3 frames slower, so it's a close call.
ZenicReverie wrote:
Use hammer, then cloak, take broom, use key 3? This seems like a better order, but unsure if it'd save frames.
This was 9 frames slower.
ZenicReverie wrote:
I've been opening map, then going up ladder, but I'm not sure it's probably slower.
I found this to mess up the inventory order (having to switch pages to use the arrow, and switching again to use the wand) so I think opening the star map after taking the blade is faster.
ZenicReverie wrote:
Did taking an extra torch not help save time by keeping the scepter and staff on the last page? You didn't mention testing this. You could use the torch while paging to the spells.
Oh yeah, I tested this, and I found the best place to pick up an additional torch to be in the mirror room after taking the staff. This took an additional 88 frames, about 28 frames more than the page switching takes in the skeleton room, so this didn't save any time.
Thank you for all the feedback! I edited in this 8 frames improvement (which turned out only 7 frames faster due to randomness). New movie file:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1868215145/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2b.fm2
Now 451 frames (7.52 sec) faster than the published run!
And I will try to test the route you posted here to see if it can save time in your console speedrun (I haven't completely forgotten).
I've been opening map, then going up ladder, but I'm not sure it's probably slower.
I found this to mess up the inventory order (having to switch pages to use the arrow, and switching again to use the wand) so I think opening the star map after taking the blade is faster.
I meant opening the map, going up the ladder, using the arrow, taking the blade, then taking the star and rod. Might be slower, not sure...
Randil wrote:
ZenicReverie wrote:
Did taking an extra torch not help save time by keeping the scepter and staff on the last page? You didn't mention testing this. You could use the torch while paging to the spells.
Oh yeah, I tested this, and I found the best place to pick up an additional torch to be in the mirror room after taking the staff. This took an additional 88 frames, about 28 frames more than the page switching takes in the skeleton room, so this didn't save any time.
Right, but also remember that you'd be saving time when you use the orb on the staff (two page swaps), which should save time in the long run if that wasn't in your calculations.
Randil wrote:
And I will try to test the route you posted here to see if it can save time in your console speedrun (I haven't completely forgotten).
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
Good news: Your route in the star map room was faster by 24 frames:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/551217304/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2c.fm2
475 frames, 7.92 sec, faster than the published run. Closing in on 8 seconds!
Bad news:
After having tried a lot of ideas, I actually doubt that picking up an extra item in order to put scepter one position lower in the inventory is faster. Here's a summary of what I know (please fill me in if I missed something):
*The motivation for picking up an extra item is to avoid 3 page changes - 2 in the skeleton room, and 1 when using the orb on the staff (there is actually only 1 page change here, after you used the orb the page instantly changes to the last page without any loading time).
*Since the time to pick up an item is a little more than the time of 2 page changes, you want to pick up an item such that it does not cause any page change when you pick it up.
*You want to pick it up after the wand, otherwise the wand will be on the wrong page when you use it on the snake.
*(obviously) You have to pick it up before the scepter.
This narrows down the candidates quite a bit. The torch in the stone corridor is probably the best candidate: it would force a page change when picking it up, but that won't waste any time since we would avoid a page change when picking up the scepter. I tried this, and it was faster than the current route, up to the point where we use the talisman - now the talisman is on the next page, forcing a page change, making this route slower. The only option now would be to use up this extra torch before this point, but using a torch is slower than one page change, making this overall slower.
I hope that wasn't too confusing. I also tried picking up the crest in the banquet hall, and this also worked fine and would have been faster than the current route if it wasn't for the talisman at the very end.
What do you think, did I miss something?
The only option now would be to use up this extra torch before this point, but using a torch is slower than one page change, making this overall slower.
This was the piece of the puzzle I was missing. I would have hoped using the torch wouldn't waste much time. Guess we just have to live with the page changes. I was thinking of using the torch at the same time we use the BigCoin.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
I have revised the run a few times, and found a very small menu navigation improvement to the newest run (3 frames saved in the lake room). However, after editing this in, it led me to another discovery: not only is the number of lightnings in the last room random, where they appear is also random and has an impact on how long this scene will take. Although I was ahead of the current run once I reached the last room, I lost frames here due to a longer lightning scene, even though I got 3 lightnings. The good news is that this means that I got lucky in the v2c run, getting all the lightnings on the right hand side. I haven't looked into this in detail, but it seems I now have another thing to worry about in the TAS.
That must have been one indecisive game developer. Either that or someone who really liked the random number generator he created for the sphinx and wanted to use it somewhere else.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
I have now looked through this route without any teleportation, and here is my feedback (note that I used the broom trick instead of picking up the horseshoe, but it shouldn't affect the overall idea of this route):
*Once you reach the banquet hall, after using key4 you have to switch back one page to reach key5 and key6, whereas in the current route there is no page switching here.
*When leaving the balcony right after having picked up the coins, the item page will switch back to page 1. When you now go to the skeleton room, you will have to switch to page 2 in order to reach the scepter and ring. On the other hand, this is still faster than the current route where there are 2 page changes here.
*You will need to change page when using the wand on the snake, and then switch again when you are to use the blade.
*You will need to pick up and use the torch in the room where you get the cloak, right after taking the staff.
*You'll save 3 page changes by not having to switch pages between spell usage.
Add to this the 2 additional screen transitions mentioned earlier. It seems that this route is not faster than the current route. If you want to avoid randomness, it seems best to use the current route but walk instead of using the teleportation.
I have now looked through this route...
*You will need to change page when using the wand on the snake, and then switch again when you are to use the blade.
Pretty sure I avoided this part some how, but even so, sounds like it's more trouble than it's worth. Thanks for checking.
Okay, looking really good. I'm going to make you work a little more though, so I hope you don't mind. :D
Things that should definitely save some frames:
Flip pages first and then choose speak to use Humana. Don't use Use, it's a few frames slower to do that menu navigation.
In the room where you use Motari, once you get the cursor on the menu, go up and select Speak, then select Motari.
Things that might save time...
Using the red gem as soon as you enter the library.
Using the ladder instead of the minimap after using the water on the hellhound.
At the gargoyles, go right instead of down, go up the menu and select Speak Illumina.
This last one might seem a little weird, but instead of scrolling down from the top left torch, would it be faster to quickly go off the left side then back to the menu? It seems like it'd be really close, but it'd be cool if it saved even a frame. Could be many uses for it.
and questions...
Does having an action selected when switching pages make it take longer to regain control?
It looks like you need a zero input frame between pressing a direction in the menu, but is that true of zig-zagging as well?
I finally spent a lot of time looking at this frame by frame in some parts, and came up with the above. The emulator kept crashing about every 20 minutes too. :D Thank you very much for looking into these and posting these drafts. They've really helped.
Joined: 4/20/2005
Posts: 2161
Location: Norrköping, Sweden
ZenicReverie wrote:
Flip pages first and then choose speak to use Humana. Don't use Use, it's a few frames slower to do that menu navigation.
Thanks, this was 4 frames faster.
ZenicReverie wrote:
In the room where you use Motari, once you get the cursor on the menu, go up and select Speak, then select Motari.
This also saved 4 frames, nice!
ZenicReverie wrote:
Using the red gem as soon as you enter the library.
This was 11 frames slower.
ZenicReverie wrote:
Using the ladder instead of the minimap after using the water on the hellhound.
This saved 12 frames, but all those frames were lost due to bad luck on the lightning scene. With the two improvements above, it appears that I have reached the lightning scene at the first frame with 3 lightnings. If I get there x frames sooner, I would simply have to wait for x frames before pressing A. Still, I included this new strategy in the movie.
ZenicReverie wrote:
At the gargoyles, go right instead of down, go up the menu and select Speak Illumina.
This was exactly as fast, including switching pages without any command selected.
ZenicReverie wrote:
Does having an action selected when switching pages make it take longer to regain control?
Apparently it does; it takes 2 more frames for each page switch. Interesting... It's not a huge difference, but it might be enough to squeeze out some more frames somewhere in the run. I'll have to take a closer look at this.
ZenicReverie wrote:
This last one might seem a little weird, but instead of scrolling down from the top left torch, would it be faster to quickly go off the left side then back to the menu? It seems like it'd be really close, but it'd be cool if it saved even a frame. Could be many uses for it.
I have considered this, and it's exactly as fast as moving the cursor down the normal way, so unfortunately there is no use for it. A similar trick is done in the lake room on the minimap, moving the cursor off the minimap and then inside again.
ZenicReverie wrote:
It looks like you need a zero input frame between pressing a direction in the menu, but is that true of zig-zagging as well?
Yep, you still have to pause for 1 frame.
So to sum things up, these improvements add up to 20 frames, but I lost 15 frames due to worse luck on the lightning scene, so in total 5 frames saved. I tried intentionally losing a few frames in order to affect randomness, but anything faster than 5 frames forced me to wait. I do not fully understand exactly how the randomness timer works, but it appears to be a global timer, so I don't think there is much I can do about the bad luck.
New movie:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/332402521/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2f.fm2
EDIT: 3 more frames saved by fixing some minor mistakes and switching page once without any command selected. For some reason, with this improvement, I didn't have to wait for 3 more frames on the lightning scene. Weird. Now 504 frames, 8.4 sec, faster than the published run! Here's the new movie:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1334633540/shadowgate_randil_zenicreverie_v2g.fm2
