Holy crap, I had no idea this game would look so cool tool-assisted. I hope someone continues this, whether it's Blublu, Healblade, or anyone else competent.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
My time has been limited, but I'm here keeping an eye on you and working to try to get my movie as fast as yours.
At every turn, you're faster than me. In fact, I'm still trying to find where my beginning menu navigation is 10 frames slower than yours. I'm still a beginner, and this is a steep learning curve. If I manage to do any part of this faster than you, I'll be sure to let ya know, and as soon as I get to the first boss, I'll post a WIP.
Neat trick: Try pressing SELECT one frame before you pick up the final bag... not too appetizing, though.
I pressed Start every other frame. I tried alternating A and B, A and Start, B and Start, even Start and Select.
I didn't try holding Start, though... I think I'll try that. Also, it seems I just missed the level that Blublu used Select to change the color of the potatoes he rescued from level 1-13. Open mouth, insert foot, I guess. The black carrots are my favorite, personally.
EDIT: I found the problem of the beginning menu. In my WIP, the Irem logo faded 3 frames later than in Blublu's movie, and neither of us used any input prior to that, so I hadn't done anything wrong there. I started over and selected to record from "Start" instead of from "Reset", and the problem fixed itself.
I'm now 1 frame behind Blublu at the end of the first level. This is becoming quite a learning experience.
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjavík, Ísland
Yeah, I didn't discover that little color weirdness until I had done about 8 levels or something.
I don't know what's hard about the menu navigation. I press start for one frame on frame 0, then find the first frames when you press start, first to bring the start/continue menu up and then again to start the game.
The best way to skip dialogue, I've found, is to simply alternate between A and B. That is, press A one frame, then B the next, etc. Since both buttons will fast forward and exit the dialogue, this will result in the fastest skip, since you always press either A or B on the optimal frame.
Edit: Don't worry too much about improving the first 2 or 3 levels or so. I have reason to believe those are actually un-improvable. (of course, don't settle for slower, either) The later levels can probably all be improved a little. Actually, I don't really know, it's just a hunch.
Edit: I'm sure you must have figured this out already but...
You probably lost that frame by walking up-up-left-left rather than up-left-up-left. If you go straight, you waste the one frame of movement to the side that is normally used for whiplashing (as you call it).
So what that means is that if you have to go two spaces horizontally and two spaces vertically, you save 1-2 frames by alternating between those directions rather than going all the way one way and then all the way the other way.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/806/HBv3.fcm
I made that one around seven hours ago, but my internet connection died before I could post upload and post it.
I may be mistaken, but I don't think that I actually lost a frame there. I changed how I froze the first enemy and how I dealt with the pillars, so I saved 4 frames. I think that the 1 frame discrepancy between our movies lies in the path we take. Our movies are nearly mirror images as you take the "left path" and as I take the "right path".
I'm still not sure, but I think that that the path on the right is one frame faster than the path on the left due to how the game handles the whiplash walking. That said, it is entirely possible that my small differences in using the right path may result in a 4 frame improvement when applied to the left path, but I suspect only 2 frames can be improved there.
TASing this game is certainly non-trivial.
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjavík, Ísland
Very nice. I didn't think level 1 could be improved at all. I was a little worried that I had made my movie too perfect and you would feel discouraged about trying to improve it. I can see that that didn't happen. At least I hope not...
Joined: 7/28/2005
Posts: 13
Location: UNCA, North Carolina, US
Wow. I started a run on this a while back (Just got a few levels in) but I never found that movement glitch.
Amazing run, very much looking forward to seeing the whole game done! :)
Very nice. I didn't think level 1 could be improved at all. I was a little worried that I had made my movie too perfect and you would feel discouraged about trying to improve it. I can see that that didn't happen. At least I hope not...
I'm certainly not discouraged by your movie. I'd sooner say it is a great source of encouragement.
I just have had little time to work on the run, unfortunately. I'm still trying to understand how I saved an odd number of frames on the first level over your run. Until I understand that, every level will be slow-going as every path will need to be checked to determine which is the fastest.
Level 1-2, I haven't been able to save any frames, although I haven't given up trying to manipulate the bag to move to the right in fewer frames. As of yet, however, it seems that the direction that the bag moves when a ice block or pillar moves onto it is solely dependent on the frame number.
Level 1-3, I haven't spent much time yet on this level, but I suspect that I can save a couple of frames like the first level.
Past that, I won't know until I try.
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjavík, Ísland
I don't know.. I figured Healblade was working on it so I stopped thinking about this game and totally forgot about it.
If Healblade has given up, I might do something with this game eventually. It is actually a very fun game to do because each level is independant on the ones before and after and it's easy to get into the "okay, just one more level and then I'm taking a break" mentality.
I largely gave up on the run when I spent over a week trying to replicate the work Blublu did on the first world and failing to get anywhere close.
I managed to beat his first stage by three frames, tied his times for the next two stages, and then couldn't even manage that after the first three stages.
I'm starting a job with regular hours on the days I get called to work beginning Monday (substitute teaching at my old high school), so maybe I'll dust off the old emulator and try it again... Blublu could probably knock out a great TAS by then, though.
I still don't know how I managed to beat your first level by an odd number of frames.
This is a really fun puzzle game with annoying ~20 sec gaps in between levels. :(
But it's time to rock through it. It's amazing how fast he can actually do things compared to "humanly possible".
Ver 0.1
Ver 0.1 - Contains all of Garden Land through the boss. This isn't totally optimized, but fairly close right now. Make sure to turn input viewer on in the scene before the boss. CAN YOU FIND THE SECRET CODE?! lol
I think there's a couple spots that have semi-obvious improvements, but if you find anything here that you think can be done different, speak up.
I know I'm gonna have struggles doing the special levels after beating the Wizard King (or whatever his name is). I never could get past the first one as a kid...
[EDIT by Bisqwit: Merged into existing thread. Please learn to use Search!]
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjavík, Ísland
You're not doing any whiplash-walking, which would save lots of time. And I already made a movie of world 1 that is 3246 frames faster than yours (before fighting the boss). :D
Well, finish it man. As long as you're gonna kick my ass at something, you better get the job done. Because if you don't, the spirits of the underworld will come back to haunt you. ^^
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjavík, Ísland
I might get back to it some day. No promises, though. I have to finish mapping Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy (NES) (580 KB image file), then make a TAS of it (or probably the Aladdin cart version because Dizzy walks much faster in that version).
A small problem with my Kickle Cubicle movie is that the first level has already been improved by something like 4 frames. :P I'm not sure if I would redo the whole movie (hexing it won't work, feel free to try) or just continue from where I'm already at.
Edit: I've been working on this movie again and I've already done 7 more levels ... they were all extremely straightforward (hardly had to think about route) but I think I have regained intrest in this.
I had no problem running it in FCEU 0.98.16. I watched it and was quite impressed. I'm not really interested in trying to making a TAS atm, although this game would have been at the top of my list. Instead, I'd like to help with route planning in some of the more difficult levels. Your routes looked quite optimal, but I'm going to go back and check a couple of them and see if they can be done with a shorter path (although I bet yours will be faster).
It's quite impressive; keep up the good work!
I'm not really here. Pressing Up+Down too many times glitched your graphics. And audio. Yeah.
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 1058
Location: Reykjavík, Ísland
Thanks. :) Yeah I used "fceu-0.98.15-rerecording". I would like to use some version called "fceu-luke" but it desyncs even before pressing start at the beginning so I would have to redo everything. I will probably do it eventually anyway, but I'd like to see if I can finish this run first. (or it will *never* be finished)
Remember though, it's not always the absolute "shortest" path that is the fastest. For example, ice blocks should usually be pushed as early as possible because it takes a while for them to make a new piece of land (you can't walk on it right away). ESPECIALLY if the block has to hit a spring before reaching its destination.
I'm sure not every level is absolutely optimal and if you find something, let me know. (I probably won't redo anything more than maybe 2-3 levels until the next version.)
The world 2 boss battle could also probably be improved maybe 30-40 frames with some uber manipulation.
Edit: yeah, and of course some better enemy manipulation would help in a lot of cases. For example in one level, a clown pushed a bag a little bit away so I had to walk further to collect it. If that could be avoided, it could save some time. There are other places.
