Post subject: Gun Hazard
Joined: 9/24/2004
Posts: 75
For those who've never heard of this, it's more likely you've heard of the SNES/Playstation Front Mission games; GH is a quasi-sequel, and is a side-scroller where you build stats and weapons RPG-style, rather than a strategy game like the others. (on a side note, for all of these random games I'm suggesting you won't see me suggest a strategy game, LOL...they all have too long fight and plot sequences--the only one I've really gotten into is Bahamut Lagoon and I can't see any way it could be beaten <10 hours.) Very nice visuals and audio (speaking of the audio, there's a hidden sample in which some Squaresoft staff member makes some ugly curses, but I don't think it can be obtained in the game,) and although there's a load of Japanese dialogue the game is straightforward enough to not have to "practice" on an English hack before you submit a final Japanese run. There are lots of levels, most fairly short, that you proceed through nonlinearly...
"If all you did this year was sit in your cubicle and masturbate...say you're a self-starter who proactively reengineered your personal inventory with Total Quality, conforming to all EEO/OSHA/ISO9000 requirements."-Scott Adams
Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332
This game is obscure, but awesome. I think it's worth TASing, both because the robots are somewhat unwieldy, and hard to control perfectly in realtime, and also because of aesthetics- the action looks good, and you can get out of the robot and dance around a bit during the waiting periods. Here's a demo of the first mission. This is introductory; it only gets better from there. You might consult Gamefaqs for equipment/route planning. Edit: I rescind my statement. This game is too long and repetitive to TAS.
Player (37)
Joined: 2/16/2012
Posts: 282
Necro'ing this thread because I believe this game deserves a good look. I've been discussing some of the routing in the SDA thread but there's still a long way to go. Routing for a TAS would be probably a little easier since all weapon experiences and otherwise are readily available, as well as not having to worry about health as much. There are still a ton of considerations, such as damage vs levelling tradeoffs and weapon choices, but there's also a useful ammo glitch to help keep shop visits to a minimum. The NicoNico RTA Wiki has two times listed: 4:11 and 4:3x. I'm anticipating a well-planned real-time run for this being in the 3:00-3:30 range, and a TAS possibly being as low as 2:30. There's also a pilot-only Japanese TAS, but that's more of a showoff thing than being speed-optimized. That said, I'm more than willing to help with the routing and mechanics analysis, but my abilities to actually create a TAS leave a bit to be desired. If nothing else, I hope to build up some discussions for this SFC gem.
Joined: 6/22/2012
Posts: 81
I played this game sometimes, in "Esporte" (Indico area) I advise to use the "soldier trick", in this stage have a purple tank that dispatches various soldiers, each give 250 experience points, in one part of the stage there is a bridge you can get down, I used Laser Gun pointing upwards and didn't attack the tank and it releases soldiers endlessly. so you gain enough experience to climb several levels. In Final Boss, I recomended to use Spark Shoot + Special Bullet Armor to recharge the weapon.
Experienced player (766)
Joined: 12/20/2009
Posts: 120
Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
I haven't watched that as of yet, but do you use the second player control code to utilise the normally useless npc character you can bring along? I have an interest in this game, but laziness and being unsure of how to manipulate enemy spawns held my initial start off.
Player (37)
Joined: 2/16/2012
Posts: 282
Very interesting agwawaf! Glad you're working on this game. Can you post the replay file for your WIP? Nico isn't cooperating for me at the moment.
Experienced player (766)
Joined: 12/20/2009
Posts: 120
Atma wrote:
I haven't watched that as of yet, but do you use the second player control code to utilise the normally useless npc character you can bring along? I have an interest in this game, but laziness and being unsure of how to manipulate enemy spawns held my initial start off.
I didn't use second player when I TAS former run. But I think I use the second player.
Omnigamer wrote:
Very interesting agwawaf! Glad you're working on this game. Can you post the replay file for your WIP? Nico isn't cooperating for me at the moment.
Thank you! I can post my WIP. Especially when my this project stop, I'll post WIP. Also, when my motivation decrease, I'll post WIP for increasing my motivation ;)
Player (37)
Joined: 2/16/2012
Posts: 282
I have not been able to watch the videos on Nico, but I'm curious if you're using the ammo overwrite glitch in the run?
Joined: 4/15/2014
Posts: 1
Hi there. I'm currently working on RTAing this game and I have a couple of things to say/ask: 1. First off, that test TAS was fantastic and gave me some cool ideas I might be able to incorporate into RTA strats - and if you're looking at doing even better, I can't wait to see the results. Thanks for sharing it. 2. Walking through enemies as pilot - is that a frame-perfect/weird input/otherwise TAS-only thing? There are a couple of areas I could really use something like that if it were possible in real time. 3. Do you happen to know how FBG-40 at 120% with perfect accuracy compares to SPS-50 at 100% in terms of DPS? I tried to look it up but none of the English guides know the fire rate of either weapon. Looking at the other numbers it seems like SPS-50 is probably the better choice from a real-time perspective, but I thought your choice was pretty neat - and on second thought, might be worth adopting at some earlier point in the run (since I'll be at a much higher level than you).
I have not been able to watch the videos on Nico, but I'm curious if you're using the ammo overwrite glitch in the run?
It's used once, before/during Sentinel, to put something like 3-4000 units of ammo in a FBG-40. At one point there were so many hits I'm pretty sure even the SPC-700 was lagging.
Experienced player (766)
Joined: 12/20/2009
Posts: 120
Omnigamer wrote:
I have not been able to watch the videos on Nico, but I'm curious if you're using the ammo overwrite glitch in the run?
As ColonelFatso said, I use the ammo overwrite glitch once. I went to 1st stage of sentinel without BODY. And then I go to Engin-breaking stage with BODY and refilled FGB-40's bullet.
ColonelFatso wrote:
Hi there. I'm currently working on RTAing this game and I have a couple of things to say/ask: 1. First off, that test TAS was fantastic and gave me some cool ideas I might be able to incorporate into RTA strats - and if you're looking at doing even better, I can't wait to see the results. Thanks for sharing it. 2. Walking through enemies as pilot - is that a frame-perfect/weird input/otherwise TAS-only thing? There are a couple of areas I could really use something like that if it were possible in real time. 3. Do you happen to know how FBG-40 at 120% with perfect accuracy compares to SPS-50 at 100% in terms of DPS? I tried to look it up but none of the English guides know the fire rate of either weapon. Looking at the other numbers it seems like SPS-50 is probably the better choice from a real-time perspective, but I thought your choice was pretty neat - and on second thought, might be worth adopting at some earlier point in the run (since I'll be at a much higher level than you).
I have not been able to watch the videos on Nico, but I'm curious if you're using the ammo overwrite glitch in the run?
It's used once, before/during Sentinel, to put something like 3-4000 units of ammo in a FBG-40. At one point there were so many hits I'm pretty sure even the SPC-700 was lagging.
Thank you! 2. It depend on enemy's behavior. When enemies (including robot) doesn't move, you can run through enemies. It is difficult to do in the real run. 3. I don't know about DPS. I'm sorry :X
Player (37)
Joined: 2/16/2012
Posts: 282
I did some basic memory hunting for this game a while back. I will try to pull up my notes and if I have time this weekend I might look for the damage formulas.
Player (37)
Joined: 2/16/2012
Posts: 282
Been a while. I suddenly had motivation to look into some of the mechanics for this game, so I made a helper script. It has displays for current experience of equipped parts, damage values for shots, HP values for enemies, and hitboxes for most attacks. You can toggle between raw experience values for parts and the in-game percentage by pressing D with the script active. For the best experience, use with BizHawk 1.11.6 or later. http://pastebin.com/kB88ca0q Some other minor things I've noted while digging into the mechanics: -Damage from a lower-level weapon against a higher-level enemy will result in a power of 2 reduction in damage. Thus a one-level difference will halve the damage; 2 levels higher will do a quarter of its full damage, and so on. -The opposite of the above is not true; higher-level weapon fire on a lower-leveled enemy still does the regular shot damage. -You need a cumulative amount of 0x8000 part experience to hit 100%. To hit 120%, you need exactly 0xD666 part experience. Different weapons give different amounts of experience. -Part experience seems to be entirely per-hit and does not care about the actual damage done. This includes leveling your mech by sitting around and getting pelted. -The coordinate system is somewhat of a mystery, but it does have sub-pixel precision at least within the camera view. This means that a few tricks or otherwise may rely on that level of precision, assuming they exist at all. I've got a pretty good feel for the game coding flow in general now. The data structures they set up are pretty straightforward and consistent. If you have specific things that you're curious about, let me know and I should be able to pull it up pretty quickly. Good luck!
Skilled player (1246)
Joined: 8/29/2014
Posts: 302
Thank you Omnigamer, your script has been a tremendous help so far in the run. Is it possible to show where potential enemy spawns are via the script? Also, can you shed any light on how the timing of spawns, particularly in the "enemy meter" encounters, works? I have noticed that the timing of the spawns can be manipulated simply advancing RNG, but I am not sure exactly what is happening. Do the actual spawn intervals themselves vary based on RNG? If so, what is the fastest spawn time(assuming it is consistent across different encounters) and when does the spawn timer for each enemy start? Or are the spawn intervals fixed with RNG determining which spawn location is used, and the variance in spawn timing occurs when I block the chosen location by having it on screen? If this is the case, does an enemy spawn immediately at a random off-screen spawn point, or does the spawn timer get reset? Here's the bk2 and savestates before the first two enemy meter encounters in Cenktrich in case you want to look at it. I'm using Aeon Genesis English patch for this run since I plan to redo it anyway before I submit.
Skilled player (1246)
Joined: 8/29/2014
Posts: 302
Bergen 1/Cenktrich done. Link to video After hours of hex editing I was able to adjust my Upward Vulcan ammo/experience route into having one consolidated Cenktrich resupply where I reach 0 ammo just before and after the final mission. Since doing no Cenktrich resupply would leave me with too little UVG experience to kill the final boss before I run out, and I have 74 remaining UVG ammo to last me the first 4 Borukta missions before the shop, I am confident that this secondary weapon route is optimal up to this point. The current plan for the remainder of the secondary weapon route is to go to Borukta and pick up UVG-20 next so that I am a high enough level to purchase Flamethrower-20 on my way out of Al Hari, skipping Flamethrower-10 entirely(my UVG-20 will be high enough level at that point to surpass it in DPS). If necessary, I can use the main base mission in Al Hari to overwrite my FBG-20 ammo since it does not have a score tally screen. I am not sure if it will be worth picking up FBG-30 on the mandatory backtrack to Al Hari since it would be an extra shop trip, potentially an extra overwrite glitch, and would only be used in 2 continents. As for primary weapon route, after all the Vulcan experience farming I have done it has only increased by a whopping 2 damage per shot, so in the v2 TAS I am definitely not going to be wasting any frames to turn around and shoot stuff behind me(at least not with VG-10). I will pick up Vulcan-20 in Borukta, and after that I am not sure what the route will be. I believe Agwawaf's TAS used VG-20 until getting a Shotgun-30 from the carrier obtained in Sibirska, but I am not sure if there is anything worth getting in between.
GoddessMaria
She/Her
Reviewer, Experienced player (863)
Joined: 5/29/2009
Posts: 518
Location: Hell...
Nice WIP so far, hetfield! Looking forward to the next one~
Current projects: failing at life
Joined: 6/22/2012
Posts: 81
Recommendation: have only level that you need the "Bomber" to complete the mission, but if you try without level-up him his die easily ,then is good upgrade him until next level Wanzer (his didn't change the skin from the same except Clark that upgrade him as same Wanzer that you use), and I think is good use two playes, maybe save some frames beside is possible you share the fuel energy tank when you resuppply. http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/588347-front-mission-gun-hazard/cheats
Player (37)
Joined: 2/16/2012
Posts: 282
RE: Enemy spawns, sorry, I have no idea how they work and it might be fairly difficult to dig into. As for the ones where a set number of enemies spawn, that should be findable, but it may also be different for each different mission. It is hard to say currently. The one general observation I have is that they will always spawn off-camera. In the coordinate system there's a buffer of some number of pixels to either side of what's visible. You can probably accelerate spawns by swapping directions to force the camera over and reveal some while allowing others to spawn etc.
Skilled player (1246)
Joined: 8/29/2014
Posts: 302
For the mission where you have to use Luven, there is a 3rd-level wanzer for him somewhere on the ground in a previous mission that takes a small amount of time to grab. I think my most recent shop trip before that mission will be the one coming out of Al Hari to pick up FBG-20, so if I can pick up a 2nd-level Luven wanzer then(and can fit it into my money route) that might be the only potentially viable alternative to getting the 3rd-level wanzer on the ground. It might even be possible to keep him alive with a 1st-level wanzer, but I'll look into it when I get there. I'm not sure if it's faster to control him over letting his AI set the bombs, but I'll definitely look into that as well. In regards to enemy spawns, I found out that(at least as far as the enemy meter encounters are concerned) they are strictly based on camera positioning and timing and not actual spawn positions in the stage, which is why I approached most of them backwards on the 2nd Cenktrich mission to bring the edge of the camera closer to Albert(I couldn't do it on all of them since that require an extra UVG shot and I had to conserve some ammo). The minimum spawn time isn't the same for each of these encounters, but it seems like when the spawn time varies it varies by a significantly large amount, so it's generally pretty easy to find the fastest pattern. Some spawns outside of these encounters seem to work in a similar fashion since they can be moved around a bit, but not all.
Skilled player (1246)
Joined: 8/29/2014
Posts: 302
Borukta/Al Hari done. Link to video Possible routing improvements: 1. The shop trip in between Cenktrich and Borukta can be eliminated conserving a little bit of Upward Vulcan ammo across those two operations. Since I still absolutely need to reach pilot-level 7 before the final mission of Borukta to pick up UVG-20, this will require nothing short of measuring the amount of frames and/or EXP I lose for each UVG ammo usage I can potentially omit, and taking out those which are the least costly until I have just enough ammo to last until level 7. I won't have to go into the optional mission at the end of Borukta to kill the one helicopter either since there are some enemies I didn't kill in the first 3 operations which yield enough XP net me level 7 without it. 2. Selling my old parts to buy a second UVG-20 in Borukta ended up being a net time loss. It saves you some resupplies but costs too much time in menuing. It will definitely be worth buying a second UVG-20 after Al Hari though if I don't need Flamethrower-20 for anything. 3. The Al Hari shop trip can be omitted as well if I conserve enough UVG ammo to last me until the end of the operation, which should be easy since I used a lot of it in places where it wasn't necessary so I could level it up higher. The reason I would want to omit this shop trip is because after upgrading to the 2nd tier carrier and shopping in New York, I can guarantee I will have enough ammo reserves to last me until the Zambola shop trip, and may even be able to reach 120% UVG-20 xp before the final Ark encounter, which instantly increases weapon dps by 50% with no incremental gains in between 100-120%. If I end up not being able to reach 120% xp by Ark, or if I end up needing FBG-20 for anything, then it will probably be better to use a route that uses UVG-20 much more liberally throughout Al Hari to level it up higher, and shop before the final boss to buy VG-20 and FBG-20. It's impossible to know which routes are viable at this point, since the former might run into issues by not having FBG-20, and the latter might run out of UVG ammo, so I'm just going to pick one at this point and see if it works out. If both are viable though, then both will need to be tested up to the Zambola shop trip to find out which is faster.