Post by Scumtron

Posted: 8/8/2016 6:56 PM

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MESHUGGAH

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Scumtron wrote:

moozooh: Indeed, the published run was done with little more than memory watch and some (mostly) naive assumptions based on that, but when you consider that the game is still primarily around eleven minutes of scrolling the screen at a constant rate and waiting for the next part to load, then it's not surprising how little room for improvement there is.

This sounds so underrated! I think it's a great achievement you did with "fewer" technology than we have now (mostly referring to TAS Editor and feos' sexy lua script). It's suprising that we still find a way to save a few frames and the way it impacts other screens.

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Posted: 8/8/2016 7:52 PM
(Edited: 9/20/2016 1:24 PM)

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Scumtron

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MESHUGGAH wrote:

This sounds so underrated! I think it's a great achievement you did with "fewer" technology than we have now (mostly referring to TAS Editor and feos' sexy lua script). It's suprising that we still find a way to save a few frames and the way it impacts other screens.

Well, my point (if I had one at all) was mainly the uselessly obvious fact that the more optimized a run gets, the greater the proportion of its duration that can't optimized at all will be. Also, though all of Ninja Gaiden's little quirks and how they interact make for a fun optimization puzzle, it's still a pretty dang simple game. _{side note: I'm still too stubborn to switch to using TAS Editor. :o}

Posted: 9/20/2016 12:45 PM

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MESHUGGAH

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Little PACIFISTING status update with questions... My latest movie User movie #33669363111907735 syncs up to 6-1 start. The remaining work is optimizing stage 6 screens (~10k frames). _{edit: already has a proposed route but probably improvable but need to be resynced because of many little improvements in stage 5} However, I would like to ask primarily my coauthors feos and Scumtron and others opinion... The "pacifist" goal... My own category ideas: A) If pacifist% would allow using B to slash powerups, it would be still different than any% and could show off some shuriken action while travelling (all without killing any single enemies/bullets that aren't bosses). All powerup could be used (restore hp for example). It would greatly change this path. B) Pacifist% but using B to slash windmill shuriken power up and ninpos to play with them. C) Same as RTA. No B outside of boss battles. (Our current WIP, linked in beginning)

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Posted: 9/20/2016 1:23 PM

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Scumtron

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You just love to make more work for yourself, don't you? ;) A string of thoughts in no particular order: A, B: * more opportunity to show off and differentiate from 'any%' (well, I'm just repeating what you said here) * If it doesn't affect speed, then I don't think it really matters (so that would a no to health) * Health would only matter in Acts V & VI, right? * But if you remove the special weapon limitation, not killing all the bosses exactly as in any% suddenly seems like a pretty arbitrary choice. C: * yeah, well, rules and stuff. I don't know.

Posted: 9/20/2016 3:37 PM

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MESHUGGAH

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A: Stage 1 - same as current wip but collects the spin slash for faster boss fight (remove enemy, collect spin slash, avoid next dmg boost, different intrrupt for tyson) Stage 2 - same as current wip but collects the spin slash for faster boss fight (on 3rd screen) Stage 3 - same as current wip but collecting the spinslash and windmill shuriken etc etc A does affects speed, only B doesn't affects (only "play", show offs, no killing and doesn't use special powers against bosses) edit: A is about pacifism against neutral enemies but uses everything on bosses, and "opens" powerup containers. B is just show off skill while playing without breaking the "killing neutral enemy".

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Posted: 9/20/2016 3:54 PM

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feos

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Let's look at what happened with my Darkwing Duck pacifist movie. it has a place where you either die, or damage enemies, or use a subweapon. Damaging enemies was instantly criticized by everyone, but avoiding subweapons was my priority goal too; so I ended up using a single arrow to climb a single pipe and save one HP, taking damage on the enemy I would have to kill otherwise. This decision is probably not so purist, but the end result looks perfect to me, as I didn't have to overuse anything I wanted to avoid, and overall the run still feels quite minimalistic. Similar neat minimalism is there in NG pacifist as it was invented by the RTA crowd. The decision to not use a sword outside boss rooms 1) is very simple, and 2) it imposes extremely tight conditions, that are hard to route and optimize, and therefore the game becomes harder, which is always a priority, if it better showcases superplay. What if we allow HP power ups delivered by the sword? It would make it more trivial, while also making it closer to any%, and it would be arbitrary too, if you only pick up HP, but not other power ups. Subweapons also make it easier and more similar to any%. Here I'm applying my judge experience and outlook, not just my personal preference. And then there's tradition too. You are the boss here, so you can break any rules you feel like today, and setup new traditions, but we can't guarantee they will be appreciated by the viewers. Which is a requirement for additional branches like pacifist. PS: Regarding subweapons just to show off, suriken is likely to get old quickly if you abuse it too much, and other subweapons probably need pauses to use them, and you need enemies to be around, while not getting touched by subweapons. It might be interesting, but it throws the entire SUPEROPTIMIZEDASFUCK current run out of the window, saying "nah, try again, everything from scratch, see you in 10 years ahahahaha".

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 9/20/2016 7:31 PM

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MESHUGGAH

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Well, the reason I ask because I prefer A the most: - Uses powerups (since we don't use it to kill enemies, it will be different from any%, only boss fights will be similar if possible to carry that subweapon AFAP) - Only kills bosses (pacifist) Technically (or "In a TAS"), it's much more challenging (using subweapons creatively without harming anything but containers), would show the superplay of a ninja who doesn't harms but uses all aids he can get. I guess I should make a demo and see the reactions for it :) Probably a few days needed to change routes. edit: The reason I'm motivated as fuck is because this is a very long project I have spent many time, so I want it to be as sick as possible. But since my opinion always on the extremes, I wanted your voice. So, brb.

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Posted: 9/20/2016 8:01 PM

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feos

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What about subweapons that don't even damage bosses, only show off? There's just something sweet to default sword on bosses.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 9/26/2016 10:44 PM

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moozooh

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There is a long-standing precedent for harming powerup containers in a pacifist run: [1926] NES Contra (Japan) "pacifist" by Soig & zyr2288 in 09:29.08. There was a discussion about this at some point, but as far as I remember it quickly died down as most participants were in favor of the status quo. In case with NG there is probably (I'm not actually sure!) all the more point to using powerups to make the run different since in Contra it only served to make the run faster and, consequently, more like the any%. If you can somehow achieve the opposite using the powerups, well, more power to you. I'd be fine with either. Not using them is certainly the safer option, but in my opinion, use your informed judgment as to what would actually look and feel better throughout the entire run.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 3/16/2017 12:17 AM

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Koh1fds

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Wanna post this https://www.twitch.tv/videos/60452856 Seems like a power pack save / load issue, but when it glitches for the first time it blinks every frame with the same graphics as that "graphical glitch frame" I was thinking that something like this can be done by killing boss at the same frame as "graphical glitch frame" happens, but seems like it can't be done. Seems like graphical glitch frame can happen only if you hit the boss at certain frame and boss have more than 1 hp. But it was looking so real for me http://i.imgur.com/rGkvsz3.png

Posted: 3/16/2017 3:55 PM

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feos

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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/37696646785204508 Since I couldn't get anything out of this glitch, I'm posting my test movie. The glitch is when you kill the second boss and run out of time at the same frame. Then cutscene and gameplay mechanics get messed up and random crap gets written to level BG blocks. The game can crash or reset, or it can get back to the boss room, but I couldn't get it to do anything else.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 3/16/2017 6:22 PM

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Koh1fds

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feos wrote:

it can get back to the boss room

Also if game do that then you proceed to the next level (3-1). Then if you die at 3-1 you will respawn at the boss room of act 2. Also like if you die at 4-2 then you respawn at 4-1 - i think that can't be done normally. edit: so one of ideas was to get this on stage 1-1 -> die -> get stages wraps around. But if you do that on the first boss than game just resets on title screen.

Posted: 3/20/2017 3:46 PM

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Scumtron

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A couple things about the boss timer double-KO: Ryu dies, so it sends him back to whatever the designated re-spawn stage is for the current boss fight (6-1 for the final bosses, minus 1 otherwise), and the boss dies so the game also wants to go through the motions of doing the score tally then fading out and playing the cut scene. The game determines which scene to play by using the current stage ($6D in RAM, 1-1 = 0x00, final boss = 0x15) as an offset for this table at $AF9A:

00 01 FF FF 02 FF FF 03 04 FF FF 05 FF FF 06 07 FF FF 08 09 0A 0B

If Ryu isn't in a boss room or stages 4-1, 5-3 , or 6-3 (those three stages have a scene triggered by Ryu touching a 0xC block) then it returns 0xFF, which is what results in the unpredictable crash/reset behavior. Since the results can vary with Ryu's actions/position before the fade-out, collecting extra ninpo before entering the boss room could extend the score tally and give more time to make something different happen. Probably wouldn't matter though. ----

Koh1fds wrote:

Wanna post this https://www.twitch.tv/videos/60452856 Seems like a power pack save / load issue, but when it glitches for the first time it blinks every frame with the same graphics as that "graphical glitch frame" I was thinking that something like this can be done by killing boss at the same frame as "graphical glitch frame" happens, but seems like it can't be done. Seems like graphical glitch frame can happen only if you hit the boss at certain frame and boss have more than 1 hp. But it was looking so real for me http://i.imgur.com/rGkvsz3.png

The Arcus clip is almost certainly just a PowerPak issue. Do you have any input file showing that graphical glitch when attacking a boss though? It might be interesting to see if it's the same as the sound-induced lag seen most often in 5-1 (and even more commonly in Ninja Ryukenden) or if it's anything like taking damage on the same frame as killing a boss.

Posted: 3/20/2017 3:55 PM

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Koh1fds

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Scumtron wrote:

Do you have any input file showing that graphical glitch when attacking a boss though?

http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/37785485731968683 Sorry, it starts from save state. Graphics crash happens on frame 700. Also Ninja Gaiden (U) [!] was used

Posted: 3/29/2017 10:20 PM

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Scumtron

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Koh1fds wrote:

http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/37785485731968683 Sorry, it starts from save state. Graphics crash happens on frame 700. Also Ninja Gaiden (U) [!] was used

What appears to be happening here is the sword hit sound starting on the same frame as the shift in the music track causes the sound handling routines to take enough extra time that the PPU is further along in its business than the game expects it to be. The exact same thing is often seen in 5-1 and was mentioned earlier in this thread. I was hoping that knowing the exact cause could lead to being able to trigger it multiple times and really break something, but that doesn't seem to work. On a new frame the game first does some PPU-related junk, reads the controller, handles all the sound-related stuff and then waits for the PPU to get past the status bar and onto the gameplay area (scanline 54) and set the PPUSTATUS sprite overflow bit using this pair of loops:

$07:F5A2: 2C 02 20  BIT $2002 (PPU_STATUS)
$07:F5A5: 70 FB     BVS $F5A2
$07:F5A7: 2C 02 20  BIT $2002 (PPU_STATUS)
$07:F5AA: 50 FB     BVC $F5A7

So when the sound stuff takes a few hundred extra cycles the game gets stuck on those first two lines until the next frame comes along (hence the frame of glitchy graphics) and the main game loop takes over again.

Posted: 4/8/2017 9:17 AM

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MESHUGGAH

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_{(don't worry, I didn't forgot the pacifist TAS, no excuses)} Regarding the double KO: 0. Some soft lock screens. Non-lag frames but input isn't processed. (1st: 1st non-lag frame. 2nd: later frames)

Here's another soft-lock manipulated from feos' movie:

1. The game can be soft locked, but most of the time it will recover after 2000~5000~13000 lag frames. 2. As Scumtron wrote, since the game uses the 0x6D which looks unmanipulatable, the game will come back to a state where you can press start and loads 0x6D, which is always the place where you did the double KO (only boss1, boss2 tested). 3. You can't warp to another level, because the KO glitch doesn't increases 0x6D only after revisiting the level, so the game takes you the next cutscene after the boss level started. Only ideas I have as Scumtron suggested is getting more score to have enough time to end a screen and hoping for something spicy. edit: if you somehow able to go to the boss screen (double ko boss2, freeze timer value, go to boss2 again), the timer will countdown again from 150 and proceeds to next level. Obviously this is impossible and worthless.

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Posted: 8/4/2017 7:43 PM

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Koh1fds

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feos wrote:

http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/37696646785204508 Since I couldn't get anything out of this glitch, I'm posting my test movie. The glitch is when you kill the second boss and run out of time at the same frame. Then cutscene and gameplay mechanics get messed up and random crap gets written to level BG blocks. The game can crash or reset, or it can get back to the boss room, but I couldn't get it to do anything else.

Maybe this is "a little bit late", but here is encoded video: Link to video

Posted: 9/3/2017 4:18 PM

Post subject: Possible wrong warp

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sinister1

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Hi friends. This warp glitch was reported to me once before but without video evidence (it allegedly occurred in during a screen transition in 2-2 warping to act 2 boss). This time a different player got it on video so check it out and see what you think. Note that this is being played on a PowerPak. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/171875534?t=1h42m12s

Posted: 9/3/2017 7:13 PM

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feos

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The link died before I had time to check it :/

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 9/4/2017 4:07 AM

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Creatus

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feos wrote:

The link died before I had time to check it :/

It's still working for me (If you mean Sinister1's link). I double checked it with two browsers (so it isn't coming from cache).

Posted: 9/4/2017 7:13 AM

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Scumtron

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Aquas also uploaded a clip to YouTube. Things seem to start to go wrong during the level fade-out, a few frames before the 0:24 mark in the video. (use "," and ".") Link to video As far as I know, there's no technical reason the game has such long fade-outs: IIRC, nothing related to loading the next area happens until after it's fully faded to black. So, if there's nothing particularly special happening at that point, what might cause it to fail like that? So after a glitchy-looking fade-out and some soft white noise we're on to loading 6-3. The nuts and bolts of the program still appear to be working as they should, they're just being fed the wrong data. Wrong graphics (duh), wrong music, wrong HUD info (only two parts are readable and have changed: stage and timer), wrong initial position for Ryu, wrong background collision data (we see Ryu briefly grab a wall before jumping over to an "0xF block" to trigger the end of the stage), and presumably wrong everything else that we can't directly observe from the video. Loading all these things relies on using $6D (directly or indirectly) as an index, and since it progresses to 6-4 after garbage 6-3, we can assume that the value stored at $6D isn't to blame. I was eager to write this off as simply another case of mysterious, un-reproducable flash cart malfunction, but with Sinister's claim of another reported (at least superficially similar) instance, I don't know. sinister1: Who reported the other instance? Do you know if it was on an original cartridge?

Posted: 9/4/2017 7:37 PM

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MESHUGGAH

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Since I have no clue, the only bug would have any effect of this is the random lag frame with japanese one on stage 2-3 probably. It creates another lag frame later at the stage. Would it be possible that there was a random lag frame in 6-2 and the next lag frame around hitting the edge? Edit: referring ti thr stack corruption http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=438409#438409

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