I figured out something when playing with Pokemon G/S.
If the text mode is fast (may hold for normal speed too), mashing the A button may sometimes render the text at that moment one or two characters per update, as opposed to three. The small deviation may be enough to throw the timing off. I'm not sure if there are other factors.
Try turbo A throughout text, and notice how much slower it is.
Edit: I didn't realize this earlier, but you seemed to have indicated that the random factor that multiplies the damage by a random amount can be manipulated independent of critical hit manipulation. If that's true, that would be awesome. I ran into a similar case using Geodude's Magnitude attack (G/S). After I use the attack and it says "Magnitude x!", critical hit cannot be manipulated, but random damage can.
I now have progress through nugget bridge. I'm currently 1949 frames ahead of my previous run. Saved frames result from the following:
~900 frames, not picking up the Rare Candy
~300 frames, one less attack (first trainer after Pewter Gym)
~66x7 frames, talking with trainers
~30x3 frames, talking with trainers (and going one step out of the way to do so)
This leaves about 200 frames that I can't directly account for. I can only speculate that this is my new battle strategy coming into play, as in this run I've never paused more than 20 frames for any event (as opposed to the last run, which was often 40 or more). But even with damage manipulation for critical hits, at this point I've already been left with three battles which resulted in 'one-pixel crits', which is quite disappointing. Were it possible to obtain a Squirtle with higher stats (I'm not convinced it is), these could probably be done it one hit. Nonetheless, I'm still rather satisfied.
I've also mapped a route which will avoid healing in Fuschia, which will save a good amount of time. Key observations that allow for this are the fact that Celedon Gym can be done before Pokémon Tower (thus replenishing four Ice Beams, thanks goes to Tilus for this), and that Strength has the exact same power as Mega Punch. I intend to abuse this by depleating Mega Punch, and then teaching Strength to Mew (instead of Squirtle). My goal is to save 10000 frames over my previous run, which should have a game clock of 1:47. I think I'm on my way.
Joined: 5/27/2005
Posts: 465
Location: Turku, Finland
I just watched you newest run and it was very fast. The trainer battles were started nicely, good idea. :)
Thou', I do have one question: Why four Poke Balls?
I just watched you newest run and it was very fast. The trainer battles were started nicely, good idea. :)
I actually got this idea from Tilus' run. He deserves credit :)
Maza wrote:
Thou', I do have one question: Why four Poke Balls?
Ball 1: Abra, necessary for Mew glitch, and saves time in backtracking.
Ball 2: Mew, main battler after Nugget Bridge.
Ball 3: Oddish, Cut slave.
Ball 4: Pidgey, Fly slave.
This leg is highly optimized, and pushes Squirtle to his limits. It's even about 1000 frames faster than Tilus' run at this point, which is impressive considering I spend extra time purchasing escape ropes, extra time picking up the Water Gun TM, and extra time picking up the Mega Punch TM. I was pretty sure this was going to be my final run.
Then I had a crazy idea. I was going over trainer battles looking for room for improvement when I noticed something. Over one third of the Pokémon fought in this section are bugs! Which, although they're weak, Squirtle still has trouble with. I began to wonder if perhaps Charmander would be a better choice. The result of my curiosity is this test run, which was completed in less than 2 hours. That being said, it's rather clumsy, and rather unoptimized at times. An example of this sloppiness is Brock's Geodude; manipulating a Tackle miss is a lot faster than letting him do Defense Curl, but I let it slide because I wasn't expecting any real results from this. I also did 6 hits on him instead of 5, which I'm quite sure is possible. If you watch the Onix battle, my second crit is huge, allowing an 'easy' 5 turn battle. Coming out of the Gym he's about 4000 frames behind, but he makes up ground fast.
Besides just the bugs, Charmander has other advantages. He's stronger and faster direct from the starting blocks. On top of that, Scratch is more powerful than Tackle, and Ember is just as powerful as Water Gun, but is learned 6 levels earlier. Squirtle's three disappointing 'one-pixel crits' were easily done. For most of the battles, little or no manipulation was necessary.
Anyway, long story short, this run clocks in 781 frames faster than my best Squirtle run. I was amazed. So it looks like I'll be doing this leg yet another time, with Charmander, without the sloppiness, and with more aggressive text box manipulation.
Hmm...do you think it might be faster to catch a Spearow and trade for Farfetch'd in Vermilion, since he can use Cut and Fly?
In general, probably not. It takes about 1500 frames to catch a wild pokémon; I'd be willing to bet that the trade animation takes considerably longer than this. However, It looks like I won't be needing a Cut slave at all, as Charmander fills that role nicely. Instead, I'll be needing a Surf slave, for which I intend to use Snorlax. This will save even more time, since the Snorlax encounter is unavoidable anyway. The encounter itself (from the time Snorlax attacks to the time the character can move again) is about 750 frames, which in effect will all be saved. Needless to say, I've very excited about this new run.
Absolutely it'd be worth it to catch Mew in a Charmander run. Squirtle's strengths don't begin to show until after the second Gym is completed. While Charmander may be better than Squirtle for the first 15 minutes or so of the game, Squirtle more than makes up for it afterward with his versatility. And, since Mew > Squirtle after that point, well.. yeah, you get the point.
Missingno was never a viable solution in the first place.
Would it be faster to catch the second mew and use it as an HM slave?
This question was answered about a page back, but I'll answer it again. Catching a second Mew would involve fighting yet another additional trainer, and even more backtracking. The time it takes to catch the first one is only offset by the fact that Mew is stronger than Squirtle/Blastoise, therefore resulting in many more OHKOs, and also because of the TM flexibility alleviating the need to catch a second pokémon to deal with Lorelei (see Tilus' run). But in comparison to catching two wild pokémon, catching a single Mew takes at least 5 times as long. That, and this really isn't an issue anymore (at least for me anyway), as I'll be using Snorlax as my second slave. So really what the question comes down to is whether catching a Mew is faster than catching a random Pidgey on the way to Vermillion. I assure you, it's not.
Joined: 5/27/2005
Posts: 465
Location: Turku, Finland
Are you sure that Mew can't be caught any sooner? If it would be, you'd get more levels to Mew rather than your starter, which would most likely speed up the run.
He needs to be able to get away from the battle.
I havn't seen the video, but if there's any other way of doing this earlier, try it, and if it's possible, yay, you've found an improvement.
Are you sure that Mew can't be caught any sooner? If it would be, you'd get more levels to Mew rather than your starter, which would most likely speed up the run.
In order to execute the Mew glitch, two components are required:
1. The 'glitch trainer'. A trainer which notices you from five tiles away (i.e. the moment they scroll onto the screen).
2. The 'trigger trainer'. A trainer whose last pokémon has a special of exactly 21 (other values will produce other pokémon).
After the glitch trainer has scrolled onto the screen, but before they notice you, press start. Then use Fly/Dig/Teleport/Escape rope. Fight the trigger trainer. The next time you return to the area of the glitch trainer, a Mew will appear.
At first glance, Mt. Moon seems to have the necessary components. The Rocket near the Mega Punch TM serves as the glitch trainer (Escape Roping back to the Poké Center outside), and the very last trainer (the one guarding the fossils) serves as the trigger. The problem is, they both happen to be in the same area of Mt. Moon, the lower level. Fighting a trainer in the same area of the glitch trainer seems to reset the glitch, and Mew doesn't spawn. I know for a fact that this is the first instance of a trigger trainer in the game. There may be other possibilities for a glitch trainer, but in any case, it would require a lot of backtracking. Doing it in Cerulean is very clean and compact; I need to heal before Bill's anyway (to Teleport back), and backtracking consists of walking Nugget Bridge another time.
But truthfully said, even if it were possible to obtain Mew in Mt. Moon, I'm not sure how useful it would be. The next battle is either Gary, or the Gym, both of which would be impossible for a level 7 Mew. In fact I'm very lucky that the first trainer on the route to Bill's happens to be an Onix, as Water Gun is four times as effective as normal, and this allows me to gain three levels without any effort.
Could you use a wild Pokemon battle as the trigger? I know it'd be tough to find a random one with 21 Special, but hey...
Yes, you can! I can't believe I never thought of this. You do however, need to battle a trainer first, for this I could use the first Hiker on the route to Bill's... he has a Machop and a Geodude, which would be a much faster battle than the swimmer in the Gym. Then in the patch of grass two tiles away from him, I could encounter a suitable pokémon.
However, wild pokémon have random stats, which certainly complicates matters. In that patch of grass are Weedles, Kakunas, Pidgeys, Oddishes, and Abras. I think we can scratch the first three from our list of candidates. I did a short trail starting from an older run. A level 10 Abra produced a Staryu, meaning a special of 27. Even if I were to find a level 8, it would still probably be too high. A level 12 Oddish produced a Gastly, meaning a special of 25. Once again a level 10 Oddish might be to high, but it's worth a shot. I'll continue playing with this theory and report results later.
HUGE EDIT:
Apparently, I've told a minor fib. I said that fighing trainers in the same zone as the glitch trainer would reset the glitch, but that's not the case. The truth of the matter is that you can't fight them at all. Instead, you can walk right past them! *UN*fortunately, in the glitched area, you can't use A, B, or start. Which means I can't simply avoid those two trainers, because there happens to be a couple fossils in the way. /me curses. What I could do in this situation is save and continue from the other side of last trainer, but I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be allowed in a speedrun video, right? Unless pokémon happens to have a reset code? (EDIT: Err, I can't save because I can't use the start button. Nevermind this.) In any case, I'll be looking for other opportunities to exploit this.
Oh, and the lowest level Oddish in that patch of grass happens to be level 12, so unfortunately that idea's not going to work. I appreciate everyone's input!
Question, if the three pokemon in pokeballs have somewhat random stats (as you mentioned before) shouldn't the wild pokemon have somewhat random stats as well?
Would it be possible to manipulate the enemy stats to produce a pokemon with a special of 21?
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
It is correct that wild pokémon have random stats, but as Bag of Magic Food indicated, the variation is limited to two or three values. I did more experimentation in Mt. Moon, escape roping, fighting a trainer on the first level, and then having a random encounter before entering the lower level. It seems that both Paras and Clefairy have a special that's too low (or rather, they are too low of level). So it looks as if Cerulean is in fact the first opportunity to catch a Mew.
Fun fact: A level 7 Gyarados knows Bite, Dragon Rage, Leer, and Hydro Pump.
Yes, the Paras and Clefairy in Mt Moon are too low level for Mew. You would need at least a level 12 Paras or level 11 Clefairy to get a special of 21. But, you can get 21 special on a level 8 Abra (3/16 chance) or level 12 Bellsprout (blue version, 2/16 chance).
One other thing I'm not sure if you realized, but you can pick up your Charmander in the very beginning from the side of the table, no need to go down first.
Fun fact: A level 7 Gyarados knows Bite, Dragon Rage, Leer, and Hydro Pump.
You're not kidding, right? That sounds too good, considering Gyarados can learn Ice Beam and Thunderbolt as well.
I'm not kidding. Dragon Rage is ridiculous this early in the game, a guarenteed 40 points of damage, which would probably defeat Misty's Staryu in one hit, and the Starmie in two. And Hydro pump is 120 power... I think that'd handle the last 5 pokémon in Mt. Moon pretty nicely. Bubble Beam and Bite would probably handle Nugget Bridge/Route to Bill's. Then there's also the advantage of not having to pick up the Water Gun or Mega Punch TMs. Gyarados would perhaps be a better option than Mew, if it weren't for one detail, that being Agatha. A level 60 Gengar is a pretty tough customer, without being able to learn Dig, Earthquake, or Psychic, I'm not sure what his chances are. Perhaps there's another option that I'm overlooking?
But if Gyarados was to be used instead of Mew, I think that starting with Squirtle would probably once again become the faster option.
EDIT:
Actually, I'm wrong. Charmander would still be a faster choice. Although he's 1000 frames behind entering Mt. Moon, he makes up for it later by serving as the Cut slave, saving 1500 frames. That, and the trigger for Gyarados happens to have two grass-type pokémon.
FractalFusion wrote:
Spikeman wrote:
I believe the super nerd at the end of Mt. Moon will give you a mew. Have you tried him?
I heard his last Pokemon generates a Mew, but some FAQ said that you can't get this Mew. Maybe the FAQ never thought about Escape Rope.
This is true. It appears that the Rocket by the Mega Punch TM is also the first instance of a glitch trainer, which because they're on the same level, means that the Super Nerd can't be used as a Mew trigger.
Joined: 4/21/2005
Posts: 32
Location: Georgia, USA
primorial#soup wrote:
Gyarados would perhaps be a better option than Mew, if it weren't for one detail, that being Agatha. A level 60 Gengar is a pretty tough customer, without being able to learn Dig, Earthquake, or Psychic, I'm not sure what his chances are. Perhaps there's another option that I'm overlooking?
If you still plan to catch Snorlax, you could give him Fissure, which wouldn't be out of the way since Giovanni gives it to you. Of course, that would require you to manipulate her Gengar to miss his first attack, since a Gengar is going to be faster than a Snorlax at virtually any level, and certainly an L60 versus an L30. And going back to earlier discussion on the Mew glitch, I believe an L8 Abra can have a 21 special, but it'd be just about the lowest possible value.
