When speedrunning Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions (Wii, PC, X360, PS3), it's standard to use a NG+ file with every single upgrade unlocked. If I want to publish a movie on this website that starts from a saved game, I'm required to make a verification movie.
Do you know how long it takes to unlock every upgrade in SM: Shattered Dimensions? Around 10 hours. That includes beating the game, completing every challenge, and grinding in-game currency to be able to unlock and purchase the upgrades.
That would mean making a 10 hour verification movie of getting the game to 100% completion for a 1 hour and 20 minute TAS (somewhere around there, anyway).
Or... we could use external cheats. At the moment, using external cheats in a verification movie is not allowed. Using gecko/AR codes to unlock everything from the get-go and have infinite currency would mean the verification movie would probably be under 5 minutes long. No cheats would be used in the movie that starts from the save file. The only way you could tell cheats were used is by the currency saying "999999999" or whatever, but the effect is the same as having any other number - all the upgrades are purchased already; the number means nothing.
I was told that using a patched version of the game that starts you with everything (instead of a cheat) would be okay - however, not every game can have the same number of resources that melee or brawl do, so having a patched version only really applies to first party/extremely popular games or old games where patches are plausible to create.
My proposal is to allow external cheats to be used in verification movies as long as the end result could also be achieved by simply playing the game, and retains no lasting, unintended effects (like if infinite health somehow stayed on even after the code was disabled and the game was restarted, or if you got a debug item that can't be acquired in normal gameplay and it wasn't discarded before the save file was created, etc - those types of things). Think of it as a shortcut.
A judge had told me this could be abused, but also said that a movie could be disqualified if sufficient proof of abuse was provided. Meaning it would be done after a movie has been submitted.
Any codes in question should be provided in the notes of the verification movie for testing (for if questions about the code's legitimacy rise). Dolphin already has the option to download gecko codes from the internet (not sure where it gets them, admittedly). For any other codes, I'd say their source should be mentioned as well (but not required).
This is a wall preventing more save-anchored movies that I think could reasonably be knocked down.
The only way you could tell cheats were used is by the currency saying "999999999" or whatever, but the effect is the same as having any other number - all the upgrades are purchased already; the number means nothing.
Is it normally possible to have that number for currency in this case?
Natetheman223 wrote:
My proposal is to allow external cheats to be used in verification movies as long as the end result could also be achieved by simply playing the game, and retains no lasting, unintended effects (like if infinite health somehow stayed on even after the code was disabled and the game was restarted, or if you got a debug item that can't be acquired in normal gameplay and it wasn't discarded before the save file was created, etc - those types of things). Think of it as a shortcut.
But how do we know it has no "unintended" effects? What if some codes have unintended effects when it's used on, say, a portion of the game different from when it's meant to be used?
If one were to resort to not having a verification movie file for some reason, editing the save file directly with a proof of the data structure would be a much better approach than using cheat codes in a verification movie IMO as the former would actually pin point the values that need to be changed for whatever reason with much lower possibility to unintentionally affect something else.
Of course, either of these only seems justifiable in extreme cases. Even the "10 hours" argument seems reasonable only because this is a game emulated by Dolphin, which isn't quite the most sync friendly. If it is some game from older platforms without much emulation syncing issue, the number of hours of required gameplay in a verification movie would need to be much higher for practices like this to be justifiable IMO.
Is it normally possible to have that number for currency in this case?
If you were to grind for long enough, yes. But like I said, the upgrades are all purchased already so the number doesn't actually matter anymore and no longer has an effect on gameplay.
Fortanm wrote:
But how do we know it has no "unintended" effects? What if some codes have unintended effects when it's used on, say, a portion of the game different from when it's meant to be used?
This sort of circles back to the "end result" thing I mentioned. The actual journey to having the save file isn't super important, just the save file itself. Even if some unintended effects happen during the creation of the save file, as long as the game plays as intended when the cheats are disabled and the game is restarted, it's fine.
Fortanm wrote:
If one were to resort to not having a verification movie file for some reason, editing the save file directly with a proof of the data structure would be a much better approach than using cheat codes in a verification movie IMO as the former would actually pin point the values that need to be changed for whatever reason with much lower possibility to unintentionally affect something else.
That is very, very optimistic of you. I'd consider paying you if you could edit a save file of Spider-Man 2 (or any other third party GC/Wii game for that matter) in a way that benefits the player and doesn't just result in the save failing to load/crashing. The Spider-Man community has been trying to do that for literal years. Anyone would be a legend in the SM community if they did it.
Fortamn wrote:
Of course, either of these only seems justifiable in extreme cases. Even the "10 hours" argument seems reasonable only because this is a game emulated by Dolphin, which isn't quite the most sync friendly. If it is some game from older platforms without much emulation syncing issue, the number of hours of required gameplay in a verification movie would need to be much higher for practices like this to be justifiable IMO.
What's the harm in allowing it? If it does get abused and an effect slips into the real movie despite cheats being disabled, either A.) no one cares enough to test it or B.) someone does care enough, gives their proof, and the movie is disqualified. Or maybe it should be required to test for any verification movie that uses external cheats (but that's just more work for the judges, oops).
I don't really see how using a cheat code could be considered more legitimate than just uploading a save file with no verification movie. Everything that can be done by editing a save file manually can be done using Gecko codes. So if you're going to allow Gecko codes as long as the end result is the same as from legitimate play, you could also allow hacked save files as long as the end result is the same as from legitimate play.
Just because a cheat is available through Dolphin doesn't necessarily mean it's "safe", by the way. I know of casual players who have softlocked their saves because of cheats they found through Dolphin. I don't have any concrete examples of cheats that would mess things up for a New Game+ run, but I don't want to assume that there aren't any such cheats.
I don't really see how using a cheat code could be considered more legitimate than just uploading a save file with no verification movie. Everything that can be done by editing a save file manually can be done using Gecko codes. So if you're going to allow Gecko codes as long as the end result is the same as from legitimate play, you could also allow hacked save files as long as the end result is the same as from legitimate play.
I'm fine with this. I just think verification movies with cheats would be far more common than hacked save files.
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Natetheman223 wrote:
Fortamn wrote:
Of course, either of these only seems justifiable in extreme cases. Even the "10 hours" argument seems reasonable only because this is a game emulated by Dolphin, which isn't quite the most sync friendly. If it is some game from older platforms without much emulation syncing issue, the number of hours of required gameplay in a verification movie would need to be much higher for practices like this to be justifiable IMO.
What's the harm in allowing it? If it does get abused and an effect slips into the real movie despite cheats being disabled, either A.) no one cares enough to test it or B.) someone does care enough, gives their proof, and the movie is disqualified. Or maybe it should be required to test for any verification movie that uses external cheats (but that's just more work for the judges, oops).
This is a borderline between "nobody cares enough to prove it's legit" and "nobody cares enough to prove it's not legit". The latter is post-moderation, it's when we want content to be presented "as is", without our dictatorship (basically speedrun.com). The former is when we want it to have our dictatorial seal of approval (basically speeddemosarchive.com). Seal of approval means "we verified and yes this movie is legit". We can't really say that if nobody in the world had the time to do the real verification. And I don't think we should be just mixing both concepts together without a clear distinction.
So in addition to emulating SDA with publications, we also want to emulate SRC with the Playground. That way we can keep high quality but entirely subjective stuff in one place, and high quality but more objective stuff in another.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
