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Posted: 5/2/2005 8:46 PM
Post subject: Shinobi 3 Time Attack
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Unknown_User
Joined: 1/1/2022
Posts: 1716
I saw a Shinobi 3 time attack in this site submissions and I really love this game. But, I didn't like it at all, so I'm trying to make a time attack myself... Since this is my first time attack, I don't know how should somethings to make it enjoyable. I don't know even if I should wait like a stupid or make useless movements when the Round don't let me move foward. So I made until 3th stage 2 time attacks, and would like someone to comment and say what should I modify in both of then. So I will know how should I do in my definitive version. there are the links of both versions: http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/oddeye/SHINOBI3.gmv http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/oddeye/SHINOBI3_-_3.gmv If it's difficult to read what i've wrote, it's because english is not my mother language and i'm not used to it...
Posted: 5/2/2005 10:09 PM
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feitclub
Former player
Joined: 3/13/2004
Posts: 1118
Location: Kansai, JAPAN
It looks pretty good so far. The level with the brains in jars seemed really well executed. Definitely play on the Highest difficulty. And watch the movie submitted here. Some things you do faster, some things he did faster. Running appears faster than jumping, so when you have to jump, try using that jump kick to get back to the ground faster. During the auto-scrolling levels (like riding the horse, or riding the elevator), the sword should be used to conserve shuriken. Also, don't forget about your magic. It can help kill some bosses faster.
Do Not Talk About Feitclub http://www.feitclub.com
Posted: 5/3/2005 5:42 AM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
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In that old submission discussion there should also be a link to a new version by me of the first level only, 13 seconds faster. I was also thinking of doing this game but still haven't gotten around to it... I'll give comments on your attempt later. Edit with comments: 1st: watching the speedrun on SDA of this game is of course mandatory for anyone making a run. http://speeddemosarchive.com/Shinobi3.html All the following comments apply to your first version: You should never have to turn back to avoid the shuriken flying after you in the beginning if you kill the right ninjas. After the climbing section, don't do a double jump. You can gain downward momentum faster with the jump kick. It also looks like you lose some forward speed. You can pick up more shuriken along the way, without losing any time, so you wont have to stop to do a jumpkick on the last enemy before the boss. The chasm before the boss can be done faster. You can jumpkick off people and land on the ground at the same time, no recoil. You can see this in the first level i posted. Do some testing on if it's faster/slower/equally fast to land from a regular jump, a double jump, and a jumpkick. Then use that info to choose the fastest possible variant in every case. You missed an extra life in the horse level. That is a very bad idea since the mijin jutsu is silly powerful and you want to use it on the bosses whenever you can. Also you can probably do something more interesting than standing to the right all the time. Level 2 boss: use 1 shuriken + jutsu and he'll go down directly. When dropping down a floor in level 3, use the jumpkick do go faster. Don't run in the wrong direction on conveyor belts. Jump. I'm not sure if it's faster to go up on the right or the left in the conveyor belt area with the sparks. Both are possible. Test. Very good agression on the brain (?) jars. Jumpkick in the beginning of the underground area. There are some other slow spots here which I think can be avoided. I suspect that the jutsu is beneficial on the level 3 boss too, but I'm not sure. Good luck with it. Don't feel disencouraged because of all the criticism, it's there to help you.
Posted: 5/3/2005 10:22 PM
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mikwuyma
Joined: 12/20/2004
Posts: 226
Truncated thank you for linking to my speedrun as a reference. I actually want to improve it sometime because there is a lot of unoptimized movement, I want to pull off no-damage, and I should have used the shuriken burst more to keep up forward momentum (ending up with over 100 shurikens is simply too many). There is some more specific stuff I want to improve too, like I should find out a way to get past the brains more quickly, but maybe you could criticise my run like you do a time attack? You seem to know a lot about this game. I think it would help, just send me a pm with criticisms if you don't mind. Also I tried downloading your first stage run a while ago Truncated and I couldn't d/l. Did something happen to the server? I only watched up to halfway through the second stage, but this is what I noticed. Overall I like what you have done so far, but there is definitely room for improvement. When you use ninjitsu (I don't know if you did or not) to damage bosses always use Mijin, it does the same amount of damage as kariu and the animation is about a second faster. Like Truncated said double jumping those cliffs is slow, use a jump kick. In the chasm right before the first boss it is unnecessary to grab on to the ledge, doing so simply slows you down. To make the first area of the second stage more exciting maybe you should let some more ninjas come out and throw shurikens, then kill the ninjas while you're dodging the shurikens. I'm pretty sure at the end of 2-2 you could use a jump kick to reach the door faster. Yes Truncated, mijin is helpful vs the third boss, since it counts as three hits against the boss. I don't know if using mijin twice is faster than simply using mijin once, then hitting the boss three times.
Posted: 5/4/2005 3:44 AM
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Truncated
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Crap. No, nothing happened to the server. I spelled the filenames wrong from the start so noone has ever been able to download it. The real addresses: http://133an.sytes.net/~truncated/shinobi3.gs0 http://133an.sytes.net/~truncated/test.gmv This could also be better upon viewing it again. I do the same mistake with the shuriken in the start, and the first chasm can be done in one jump if you dispose of the ninja standing next to it. >To make the first area of the second stage more exciting maybe you should let some more ninjas come out and throw shurikens, then kill the ninjas while you're dodging the shurikens. Can this be done without losing time? I thought the next set of enemies only appeared after you had cleared the current one. Perhaps there is more to it. Third boss: takes 6 hits with powerup, right? I think two mijin is the fastest way, but the difference can't be that big. Perhaps the extra lives can be better used somewhere else to get a bigger speed boost than here. Then again, in your run you finish with 3 spare lives, so maybe there aren't other good opportunities to use them. I could try to write up some comments for your speedrun, but there might be problems with the execution and riskyness that timeattacks don't have worry about. I'll see what I can come up with.
Posted: 5/4/2005 4:30 AM
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mikwuyma
Joined: 12/20/2004
Posts: 226
Truncated, I watched your stage 1 run. It was nice, but like you said it has a few flaws. Wouldn't jump kicks make your first two jumps faster? I'm guessing that no recoil jump kick is basically a positioning trick. I just did a simple test in stage 2-1 and the area simply scrolls at a fixed rate. I only killed about 3 or 4 ninjas and the stage went at the same pace. Yes, the stage 3 boss takes 6 pow'ed shuriken, or two uses of mijin to kill About uses of mijin, I don't think there are any good uses past the stage 3 boss. The stage 4 boss doesn't have an invincibility period when hit, making mijin too slow. The stage 5 boss is invulnerable to mijin. I'm pretty sure both the 6th and 7th stage bosses are faster simply using shuriken to take them out. I did test out uses of mijin on the stage 1 and 3 bosses when testing for the run, but probably a frame perfect test would be the best judge of determining whether mijin is worth it in those. About execution and risk, I know I can't be frame perfect but it would still be nice to know what I could improve. I know I could be a lot more daring in the last area in my run, and make jumps with better positioning. I don't mind taking (humanly possible) risks as long as they save some time. -Here is some stuff I can think off the top of my head: Use shuriken bursts more to maintain forward movement. I don't need to be conservative about shurikens because stages 2, 4, and 6 give me plenty of shurikens. I could probably dash slash through the stage 1 samurai so I can be farther right in my positioning. Find out a faster method of getting past the brains in Stage 3. I'm sure there is a humanly possible method of getting paused the brains without long pauses. I should look more into that Fushin shortcut Neofix used in stage 6. I am going to try to take more time saving risks in the final stage. I played it very safe in the first and final areas of that stage, and I think I can at least make tighter jumps to improve my time.
Posted: 5/4/2005 4:02 PM
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Truncated
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>Use shuriken bursts more to maintain forward movement. I don't need to be conservative about shurikens because stages 2, 4, and 6 give me plenty of shurikens. Yeah, the only place where there is a risk of running out is stage 1. Getting the refills there relies a bit on luck (hitting the right crates with the shuriken burst), but since it's the first stage messing up isn't as big an issue as later. >I could probably dash slash through the stage 1 samurai so I can be farther right in my positioning. They can still hurt you while red and toppling backwards. So being further to the right doesn't help. You can start running too early and get hurt even if you just standing-slashed them. I'll get back to you shortly. I will do some tests in stage 6. Edit: Okay, I tested some stuff. This is all related to jutsu usage. Two mijin on first boss is probably a good idea, though I didn't time it. We should compare the time saved on two mijin on 1:st vs 3:rd boss. Or something stupid like one on each. In any case you should use up all your 3 lives somehow. Dragon boss: use ikazuchi and slash away like mad. The bird boss, while having long invulnerability periods, does not gain anything from using Mijin. The extra damage from one pattern does not carry into the next. The second and third rooms can be done a lot faster with Fushin jutsu. Cast it in room 2, before going up the wall with the boxes (Neofix casts it one room later, which I think is a bad idea). It will stay on in the next room. One problem is that it will probably stay on in the room afterwards with the spikepoles too, making double jump a bit more difficult and movements a bit quirky. I think it automatically goes off at the boss, if you want to use Ikazuchi there. (Take the hidden jutsu at the entrance in that case. Else skip it. You take it for no reason in the current speedrun.) Throwing out this idea: Final electric traproom before boss. You use Ikazuchi here. It has four hits. Get the extra jutsu point while waiting, it should be possible without losing time. Then time the last hit on the shield before the door so you can use Fushin for the final upwards jumping section. I don't know if this pays off, due to jutsu animation. Also you'll have no shield on the last boss. Then there is all the microoptimization. For example, if you're feeling brave you can jumpkick to land faster on the small platforms at around 26:44 and similar places.
Posted: 5/4/2005 8:10 PM
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mikwuyma
Joined: 12/20/2004
Posts: 226
>Yeah, the only place where there is a risk of running out is stage 1. Getting >the refills there relies a bit on luck (hitting the right crates with the shuriken >burst), but since it's the first stage messing up isn't as big an issue as later. It's not luck, it's positioning, and you're right since it is the first stage it isn't a big issue. >In any case you should use up all your 3 lives somehow. Well I don't necessarily need to use up all three of my lives, I just want to make sure I get the most out of my ninjitsu. The fushin idea in stage 6 is a really good idea. I can't believe I didn't think of that. I'm sure I can manage some way of getting past the spikepoles. I explained in my comments why I took the extraneous ninjitsu (for safety), but now that I think about it that was really stupid. I'm not going to use that idea for the final stage for two reasons: 1. Like you said the jutsu animation might not make it worth it. 2. Not having the shield against the final boss can waste lots of time depending on luck factors. If he only uses the big ball then I'm fine, but if shoots 4 projectiles then I have to spend time blocking the shots, then running to the other side of the screen. However, now that I look at the run I should have used up all four of my ikazuchi hits to make the run faster. I'm thinking either the area you said or around 27:52, where I can simply run over the electricity and possibly make a double jump (I need to test). Another thing I realized, if I don't use ninjitus against the first boss, then I should dash slash him. I won't need to wait for him to strike then. There are going to be a lot of minor optimizations when I improve this run. I will do some testing later, but right now I am actually working on a different game (Revenge of Shinobi).
Posted: 11/1/2005 2:48 AM
Post subject: Shinobi III Movie
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Yumiko
Joined: 10/29/2005
Posts: 31
I've always liked melee weapon-based martial arts games, so Shinobi III is a bit of a special game to me. The range of moves available in this game is impressive: jump-kick, slash, wall-jump, dashing slash, etc... all performed with a single action button. I'd say Shinobi III is my favorite Sega game. This walkthrough doesn't aim to be a pure time attack. Here are its properties:
  • No Shuriken usage allowed; I think the gameplay is more impressive if I'm restricted to meleeing. (I use a cheat code to prevent Shurikens from being picked up.)
  • No Ninjitsu usage allowed.
  • Highest difficulty.
  • Must kill all enemies (no running past).
  • Must open all boxes.
  • Be as fast as possible, given the above constraints.
http://mint.aaanime.net/sega/shinobi3_1.gmv This is just a quick test run (no re-records), and I haven't played this game in a while so I'm kind of rusty and made quite a few mistakes. It only covers stage 1. Comments?
Posted: 11/1/2005 3:05 AM
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Truncated
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Unless the cheat code is in-game (press up-start-A or whatever), you need to give it to us, because those things are not stored in the movie file and it is likely to desynch without it. > jump-kick, slash, wall-jump, dashing slash, etc... all performed with a single action button. No, they're not. Actually not a single one of the attacks you listed are executed with the same button command as the others... </forum cop> Sorry, I'm just in a bad mood at the moment.
Posted: 11/1/2005 3:20 AM
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Yumiko
Joined: 10/29/2005
Posts: 31
Truncated wrote:
Unless the cheat code is in-game (press up-start-A or whatever), you need to give it to us, because those things are not stored in the movie file and it is likely to desynch without it.
Ahh, I didn't realize that. The code is: RFST-G6ZC Thanks for telling me.
> jump-kick, slash, wall-jump, dashing slash, etc... all performed with a single action button. No, they're not. Actually not a single one of the attacks you listed are executed with the same button command as the others...
They're all executed by pressing the "attack" button (but what move comes out depends on whether you're standing, running, and the directional pad), I meant... (oops, wall-jump uses the "jump" button instead, I made a mistake on that one)
Posted: 4/12/2006 11:55 PM
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Bloodsh3d
Joined: 7/21/2005
Posts: 13
I started to make a speedrun of this. Got to stage 6 i think and then dicided to start again with all I'd learned. However, it desynched and I backed up BEFORE i watched it(stupid, stupid). I'm going to try again. But the main point of this post was to tell you all something I don't think you have discovered. One of the main issues it seems, is working out if is quicker to jump, double jump, or jump with a flying kick afterwards. Well, there's one more technique: When you throw a shuriken in midair, one of 3 things happen depending on how far away from the ground you are: If you're high enough, after the throwing shuriken animation finishes, you'll revert to regular falling status and when you land you crouch for a couple of frames, and will be stood still. If the shuriken animation doesn't finish in the air, it continues on the ground for however many frames are left of it and you will be stood still. The trick I discovered is that if you time it so the animation finishes on teh frame you land, then nothing happens and you continue running with no input, just holidng forward. This is demonstrated on later levels, here: http://www.freewebs.com/bof3genes/BSshinobi3.gmv because I only discovered it on the watery level, and learned how to do it reliably after that. I know in general that run isn't really that impressive, but was my 'test' run of sorts. Also, another thing is, when you jump(running), there is a certain distance you can fall and keep running, and will always have to be less than you jumped. So, if you have to jump over something(an enemy), try and land on something higher(like a box) and you will keep on running, and you can run off the edge(if it isn't too high) and keep running. This is demonstrated everywhere, but most notably on 1-2. You probably knew this. Anyone have any otehr general tricks/observations you can share? I think we all agree this game is in need of a near perfect speedrun. Right, time for me to start again, again.
Save a tree. Eat a beaver.
Posted: 4/26/2006 9:23 PM
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Brother-Ernest
Joined: 4/10/2006
Posts: 5
can someone help me out? when i reach the boss of level 5 (electric demon) whenever i play back a movie it always desyncs at that battle, every single time!! its baffling me,i mean is the boss completely random or something?
Posted: 4/26/2006 10:15 PM
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Bloodsh3d
Joined: 7/21/2005
Posts: 13
Even different movies? It should be fine... maybe something to do with you're button configuration?
Save a tree. Eat a beaver.
Posted: 4/26/2006 10:27 PM
Post subject: Shinobi III Speedrun
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Bloodsh3d
Joined: 7/21/2005
Posts: 13
Ok, I've had multiple attempts at this and i've been redoing the first couple of levels over and over. Here are my results- should I continue? and what can be done to improve? The first movie, slightly less optomized than the second, but has the first 2 stages rather than just the first. http://host-a.net/getfile.php?usern=Bloodsh3d&file=shinobi3try1.gmv The second, opposite to the above :p http://host-a.net/getfile.php?usern=Bloodsh3d&file=shinobi3try.gmv
Save a tree. Eat a beaver.
Posted: 4/26/2006 11:40 PM
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Truncated
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Looks very good so far, at least the second one. Have you compared it to the one in the workbench forum? Ideas: - Is slashing to fall faster than jump-kick? Did you time it? - You can possibly use the Mijin jutsu on the first boss. I remember planning where to use the jutsus somewhere here but I can't remember the result. Search. - If you don't use mijin, you should focus on getting the boss off-screen as fast as possible. The boss becomes vulnerable as soon as he has disappeared. Don't run after him until you know that it won't delay his next appearance. - In one of the movies there was lag as three enemies came on screen and you somersaulted + shuriked sprayed. Try to find a solution that doesn't lag the game. - You have a few missed shots. While they don't slow you down, they look sloppy. It's preferable that you avoid them. I hope that helps.
Posted: 4/27/2006 2:57 PM
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Bloodsh3d
Joined: 7/21/2005
Posts: 13
Truncated wrote:
Looks very good so far, at least the second one. Have you compared it to the one in the workbench forum? - Is slashing to fall faster than jump-kick? Did you time it? - You can possibly use the Mijin jutsu on the first boss. I remember planning where to use the jutsus somewhere here but I can't remember the result. Search. - If you don't use mijin, you should focus on getting the boss off-screen as fast as possible. The boss becomes vulnerable as soon as he has disappeared. Don't run after him until you know that it won't delay his next appearance. - In one of the movies there was lag as three enemies came on screen and you somersaulted + shuriked sprayed. Try to find a solution that doesn't lag the game. - You have a few missed shots. While they don't slow you down, they look sloppy. It's preferable that you avoid them. I hope that helps.
I did time the jump kick vs not, and it depends. It takes a few frames to start up the jump kick, but when you land you save frames. And you do move faster downwards, but not as far forwards. About the lag, I'll have to experiment. The missed shots are most likely meant to be there. A trick I found was that if you fire a shuriken so the animation of it finishes on the frame you land, you keep on running and don't end up crounching or anything. So in many cases this is faster.
Save a tree. Eat a beaver.
Posted: 4/27/2006 5:43 PM
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Truncated
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>And you do move faster downwards, but not as far forwards. After the wall-climbing sections in the cave you want to move downwards as fast as possible, right? But you use a sword attack instead, how come? >The missed shots are most likely meant to be there. A trick I found was that if you fire a shuriken so the animation of it finishes on the frame you land, you keep on running and don't end up crounching or anything. So in many cases this is faster. Oooh, nice. I didn't notice that.
Posted: 4/28/2006 7:08 PM
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Bloodsh3d
Joined: 7/21/2005
Posts: 13
The wall climbing sections... I dunno, maybe i thought it looked cool lol. It was just after that bit of the movie that i sudeenly realised i needed to take more care(using frame advance and doing everything frame perfect) rather than going at a certain speed and doing it roughly. I will probably start from the beginning again. But i keep forgetting to work on it :/
Save a tree. Eat a beaver.
Posted: 5/22/2006 1:53 AM
Post subject: Yet another barely started Shinobi III speedrun...
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Unknown_User
Joined: 1/1/2022
Posts: 1716
Hey guys I started working on this awhile back right after neofix made his run. I haven't worked on it recently, but I figured I would post it for feedback or whatever. If anyone can explain what is happening in stage 3 where I run through some brains, I'd appreciate it. Does it have anything to do with some maximum sprite limit? I tried to make everything look real coal during the autoscrolling stages. Download: Stages 1, 2, and half of 3
Posted: 5/22/2006 1:57 AM
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NrgSpoon
Joined: 6/14/2004
Posts: 646
Dandy J! I love your theme song!
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Posted: 6/27/2006 11:12 AM
(Edited: 8/5/2006 8:59 PM)
Post subject: Shinobi III pacifist/bare bones, finally done, info to come
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deepbluevibes
Joined: 6/27/2006
Posts: 46
ALWAYS check latest post to see for more news on WIP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyGtL9GtLaU = COMPILATION MUSIC VIDEO OF THE BEST STUFF IN THE VIDEO on my same youtube profile there's the full video in four parts also, so check it out - no damage - no killing of ANY enemies (except in cases where enemies block path/need to do so to advance stage/bosses) - no items - no ninjitsu - expert level - no shuriken EDIT: NEW FILE UP---v (game finished) http://deepbluevibe.phpwebhosting.com/shinobi3.zip has the gmv and gst files. (I heard it's bad to include one of these or something, fill me in on this? didn't see it in the FAQ or forum rules, apparently one of them lets you link to roms? o.o ) the rom name is Shinobi_3_-_Return_of_the_Ninja_Master_(U)_[!] oh, also, this is a speed run yes, but it is not meant to compete with the top speed time. This is a glitch/entertainment video, meant to show ways to play the game that would definitely be 100% impossible (at times) without tool assist, such as the stage 2 boss or stage 3 midboss (hell, all of stage three's lab part), etc. Also, some people i've shown this to tell me to "hit an enemy earlier" or they ask why i wasted time in an area before attacking or something of that sort. I just wanted to explain some things/reasons why I do the things i do in this video; - on all of the bosses, I am hitting them at, or one frame after, the first available frame to hit them (minus the first boss). This is either because I cannot jump kick fast enough (which looks far more impressive to me than just slashing everything, plus i don't have the powerup so my kicks are actually stronger than slashes); or it's because since i'm without a powerup + jump kicking them, the area to hit them in WITHOUT being hurt myself is maybe two or three pixels, if you want an example, try and do what I did on the level 3 midboss yourself; to stay in the air constantly like I did took forever because if you are off by even a pixel or two, the little brains will trade hits with you. - I am purposefully doing such acrobatics to make the video more interesting; i could have just stood up on the conveyer belt and slashed all of the brains, but i figured wasting a few seconds and doing what I did was far more interesting. I'm going more for entertainment than beating the best speed time; while I am rushing forward as much as possible (like in the part after the elevator), the rules I have set on myself make complete forward movement almost impossible in most cases (like the lab in level 3). Even with this being said, once I finish this, I hope it'll be accepted. :)
Posted: 6/27/2006 12:16 PM
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Graveworm
Former player
Joined: 9/29/2005
Posts: 460
Would it be more interesting than just playing through the game the fastest possible way?
Posted: 6/27/2006 3:14 PM
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deepbluevibes
Joined: 6/27/2006
Posts: 46
Graveworm wrote:
Would it be more interesting than just playing through the game the fastest possible way?
possibly, since to do this would be absolutely insane. this is because just for example, in the first level, to even get through the initial "section" of the level, there are at least 10+ enemies and three different types, all squashed together. if you're killing them it's easy, but with the main character's movements being very inertiatic (is that even a word?) you really are stuck maintaining your motion; if you move backwards in the air, you lose a ton of momentum in most cases. Not to mention the rainbow jump can only be done at the peak of a jump, and the only other modifier to jumps is the downward kick, which has to be done with caution to not kill enemies, or hit item boxes. I'll do a test run of the first level, try that out, and see if you guys think it's interesting enough to do the whole game, would that be ok?
Posted: 6/27/2006 4:04 PM
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Truncated
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I'd be more interested in run trough the game without extra modifiers (and I've been planning to do one foreever but never got around to doing it), but I can't really say until I've seen an example. So go ahead and try out a level. Rainbow jump... is that the official name for the somersault or something?
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