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Posted: 5/2/2005 12:56 AM
Post subject: Advance Wars
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Mlandry
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 325
Im surprised this game doesnt have its own topic yet, so I guess ill make one I think this would be a pretty simple game to time attack. Its a strategy game so rerecords would basicly only be needed if you mess up pressing a command at the 1st available frame or something. Also i checked gamefaqs and the guides there are usefull, theres an S-rank guide and getting S-rank usually involve the fastest strategies possible. The start of the game is fairly easy and most missions would be finished quickly but i think it would be interesting to see what kind of strategies could be used to complete the later levels quickly, because as i recall they are pretty hard. Also, your units dont level up in this game so unlike strategie games like Fire Emblem or Der Langrisser you wouldnt have to sacrafice time to level up certain characters. So any thoughts on this game?
Posted: 5/2/2005 6:52 PM
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Unknown_User
Joined: 1/1/2022
Posts: 1716
I just think this game wouldn't be that entertaining to time attack. I can't really see any part of it keeping me interested in watching a whole run.
Posted: 5/2/2005 6:55 PM
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Bob_Whoops
Former player
Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA
I disagree. I would like to see it, but it would be near impossible to get any of the missions past the first few perfect.
Posted: 5/2/2005 6:56 PM
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Tombad
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 380
Location: Finland
I love the game(s) and when the rerecording emulator I conducted a small test on Adwance Wars 2. To my dismay, the results were quite horrible. Since we are aiming for speed here, the battle animations are unnecessary and should be turned off. This causes the game to degenerate into Menu Wars (2). Granted, watching the cursor move at lightning speed might be fast for a level or two, but the novelty doesn't last. EDIT: [Based on IRC-discussions] I think a competition type challenge might fit this game. Think a competition like the current RRROCKMAN!-competition. Single levels at a time to avoid frustration. Time measured in turns rather than seconds. Of course, this only works if there is enough interest.
"Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home." ( Pratchett & Gaiman: Good Omens )
Posted: 5/2/2005 7:21 PM
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Mlandry
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 325
good point , i guess not many people will enjoy watching advance wars without animations heh.. well a competition is a good idea but its quite a long game for that, since its like 24 something missions plus the training at the start that you need to complete to start campaign.. btw i just thought of something. This game saves ingame whenever you complete a mission so to make a run you would probably need to start from an unused rom and watch it with an unused rom too right?
Posted: 5/2/2005 7:27 PM
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Tombad
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 380
Location: Finland
Mlandry wrote:
well a competition is a good idea but its quite a long game for that, since its like 24 something missions plus the training at the start that you need to complete to start campaign..
That's why we are talking about a single mission at a time. Ie. your entry is a playthrough of a single mission. Also, savestate could be provided, so that everyone starts at the same place.
Mlandry wrote:
btw i just thought of something. This game saves ingame whenever you complete a mission so to make a run you would probably need to start from an unused rom and watch it with an unused rom too right?
Doesn't it save it's data onto the SRAM, which is a separate file handled by the emulator. So the rom isn't modified during the gameplay.
"Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home." ( Pratchett & Gaiman: Good Omens )
Posted: 5/2/2005 9:15 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
I think so... What about FDS files, though? I think FDS save games might be written into the games themselves, but I'm not sure. (yeah sorry I'm getting off-topic, but I was curious)
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 5/3/2005 3:19 AM
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samurai_goroh
Editor, Player (54)
Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
Mlandry wrote:
well a competition is a good idea but its quite a long game for that, since its like 24 something missions plus the training at the start that you need to complete to start campaign..
If I'm not mistaken, you only need to do the 1st & "last" training missions to get to the Campaign Mode (the 1st is forced IIRC). Also, some maps can be unlocked because of speed (the ones where you play against Sonja), but i think you could waist some days to avoid that... BTW, here's a link to a page that may be useful to someone that it's interested on making this speedrun: AW Revival It contains a step by step guide of every mission there is with images & comands...
I'm the best in the Universe! Remember that!
Posted: 5/3/2005 10:48 AM
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Mlandry
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 325
yep only the last mission needs to be done, i guess its a bit faster then doing them all =)
Posted: 5/5/2005 10:41 AM
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KaitouKid
Former player
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 384
Why not just run the Versus/War Room missions? >_> Seems like those would make for a more competitive arena than the 1-Player game would.
Posted: 11/9/2007 12:25 AM
(Edited: 11/10/2007 11:22 PM)
Post subject: Advance Wars
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
WIP (Missions 0 - 6): http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1842023824/0095_-_Advance_Wars_%28U%29%28Mode_7%29.vbm Video of WIP (Missions 0-2): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3013477591911033044&hl=en My goal is to complete the normal campaign from a fresh start. That requires going through the final training mission, which I'll call Mission Zero for simplicity. There's no luck manipulation (or at least very very little), so the strategies you see are usable in their normal handheld, if you can make out what's going on ^_^ Mission Zero: Starts on frame ~1300. Unfortunately, I can't turn off the battle animations yet. That makes this about twice as long as it needs to be. Don't worry, the pace of the video doubles after this. Not much to say about the strategy... I have to minimize the number of fights because of the long animations, but I must destroy both pieces of artillery to capture the HQ. Destroying all units takes longer because of the silly animations, otherwise it would be worth thinking about. Mission One: Starts on frame ~13500. A quick dash for the HQ. I actually do not have enough firepower left at the end to destroy that last tank while its sitting on a city, so I just surround it and win. My MdTank kills the rocket, then baits the enemy's MdTank away from their HQ. The reason why the tank resting right next to my capturing infantry doesn't kill me is because the AI refuses to use a unit which has been severely injured until it goes back up to full hp (most of the time). Mission Two: Starts on frame ~23000. In order to capture the enemy's HQ, you have to take out both artilery and both rockets, plus the tanks nearby, so its faster just to kill everyone. Grif's CO Special is absolutely devastating, except that I force him to use it when nothing is in range the first time, then clean up as quickly as possible. Mission Three: Starts on frame ~33500. This mission is all about guarding my transport copter from any damage (it needs to be able to survive a hit from a light tank to guard the capturing infantry at the end). I found the best way was just to surround it. I also had to make sure to do little enough damage to avoid triggering his CO Power until he flew his Fighters into my AA guns. When his CO Power does go off, it is actually quite helpful, killing a useless tank in exchange for moving the bomber into a perfect spot for my to kill it. Mission Four: Starts on frame ~40000. Nothing interesting here. I delay my landing a turn to prevent the MdTank from coming back and kicking my ass. I use my artillery once to prevent them from killing any of my units only to save myself the explosion animations. Mission Five: Starts on frame ~46500. I tried a bunch of strategies, but the most boring one worked best, unfortunately. I suicide forward with 2 LtTanks and 1 MdTank, and prevent my HQ from being captured. Any further input to my units only slows down completion, even with how much I die. Mission Six: Starts on frame ~53000. I can't win this by elimination, (it makes me play a bonus level if I do), so I must capture his HQ. I issue at least once command to every unit except one (the lander), a record so far. The battleships butcher everything they can reach, so I get all the infantry into tree cover, except one that I load into the lander to save a death animation. I quickly eliminate everything Olaf has on land while sprinting towards the HQ with my APC in the minimum number of turns, all while dancing my units out of battleship gun range. Mission Seven: Starts on frame ~61500. Working on it now. Comments, improvement suggestions and encouragement welcome.
Posted: 11/9/2007 1:10 AM
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Mechuyael
Joined: 2/1/2007
Posts: 245
Location: Israel
Any chance you will have the final mission with that blue army long range man and um.. Hawk, or Falcon, the air supremacy green army guy? I've been stuck with them for years... Or maybe it was that high cost yellow army person... Bah, it's been quite a long time since I last tried.
Posted: 11/9/2007 1:33 AM
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Hina98
Joined: 3/15/2007
Posts: 131
Everything looks good. This run will become much more entertaining later on, I think, when the levels become more and more challenging
Posted: 11/9/2007 1:49 AM
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Nitrodon
Active player (287)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
I did some small amount of testing, and strangely enough, the RNG doesn't seem to affect damage at all. I guess that was added in AW2. Then again, Nell's power has to work somehow, so I'm at a loss right now. The RNG is used 128 times immediately after every attack, but that's probably not relevant. Some parts of the WIP looked unoptimized, but that could just be indicative of the lack of manipulation available in this game. Which COs are you planning to get in the final battle?
Posted: 11/9/2007 1:57 AM
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
Mechuyael wrote:
Any chance you will have the final mission with that blue army long range man and um.. Hawk, or Falcon, the air supremacy green army guy? I've been stuck with them for years... Or maybe it was that high cost yellow army person... Bah, it's been quite a long time since I last tried.
So close, but the answer is c) Eagle ^_^ Anyway, my planned final setup for the last mission is Max, Andy and Sami on the right. Drake might be interesting to use on the right (I've never actually tried it), but using Andy for 4 of the hardest missions in the game sounds like agony. As much as I love Kanbei, in order to get him, you need to play through three extra missions against Sonja, which will surely not be worth it ^_^. And Eagle gives you an extra mission at the end, so he's out too.
Posted: 11/9/2007 4:21 AM
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
Damage is variable, but only by a very very little. And it usually makes no difference (unless you're playing as Sonja or Nell, obviously). And given the same board, the AI will make the same decisions each time you play through a map, regardless of frames or button mashing. That's about as much as I can tell you about the RNG, since I know nothing about memory and whatnot. My guess would be that if someone found a way to better optimize a single level, it would be possible to replace that section of input, move everything else up, and not have any desynchs (hex editing, I believe its called?)
Nitrodon wrote:
Some parts of the WIP looked unoptimized, but that could just be indicative of the lack of manipulation available in this game.
What parts specifically? I'll go back and check any spots that look bad, but its optimized as far as my brain can tell. One spot that might look bad but isn't... in mission two, I move an APC forward for seemingly no reason right before the end. If I don't, the artillery fires on my tanks and sets me back a turn on the final kill, but if I move the APC into the artillery's range, it fires on /no one/. I don't know why, and if I could isolate whatever causes the glitch in the AI, it sure would be nice. Edit: Added Missions 3-4, sleep now.
Posted: 11/9/2007 6:40 AM
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JSmith
Joined: 8/1/2006
Posts: 428
Are you planning on using a Cruiser to carry a transport copter at some point in the run? You hardly ever see that tactic used, yet under the right circumstances it might save you a turn or allow you to smuggle a copter past roving cruisers, fighters and missile batteries.
Trying 127.0.0.1... telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
Posted: 11/9/2007 7:08 AM
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Nitrodon
Active player (287)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
While watching with input display on, it seems that you're using turbo a lot. This is generally considered a sign of laziness, but it especially hurt in those instances where you used turbo with the wrong button and didn't cancel the enemy's targeting cursor. Also, I thought you said you were using Max in the final battle, but you seem to have used Max in mission 4 here.
Posted: 11/9/2007 11:46 AM
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Mechuyael
Joined: 2/1/2007
Posts: 245
Location: Israel
Oh well. Still, will be fun to watch the game get beaten, maybe. Won't it feel a bit too walk-through-ish, since it's like a puzzle of where to move what each turn?
Posted: 11/9/2007 1:40 PM
(Edited: 11/9/2007 3:58 PM)
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
Mechuyael wrote:
Oh well. Still, will be fun to watch the game get beaten, maybe. Won't it feel a bit too walk-through-ish, since it's like a puzzle of where to move what each turn?
Since I'm going for the lowest time, you'll usually see endings very different than a normal playthrough. Generally I'll capture the enemy's HQ under heavy fire, or be down to my final unit, or something else exciting.
Nitrodon wrote:
While watching with input display on, it seems that you're using turbo a lot. This is generally considered a sign of laziness, but it especially hurt in those instances where you used turbo with the wrong button and didn't cancel the enemy's targeting cursor. Also, I thought you said you were using Max in the final battle, but you seem to have used Max in mission 4 here.
I see what you mean now. It happens once each during Missions One through Three. I wasn't thinking about canceling the cursor I guess, since I was canceling the dialog. It's a dumb mistake, but little enough (90 frames total) that I don't want to redo everything to fix it. More likely, someone will come up with a faster strategy for one of the maps (I'd like to think they're optimal, but hey), and then the fix can be added in. As far as Turbo being laziness... it helps me keep my sanity, and I don't really care if it /looks/ bad on the input. Generally the window between when input begins being accepted, and when it must be in for the command to be processed, is at least 1-2 frames, thus making using turbo fine. There are one instance, however, where I've been using it and it causes me to lose frames. There's a 50% chance to lose a single frame if I use turbo on the screen at the end of a unit's turn, because for some reason the window is shorter here (starting accepting input only the frame when the window appears). I'll try and be better about this, but again, its not going to kill the video. And for Max and the final battle... yeah. Stupid mistake. I'm redoing 4 now. I don't know why I got it confused. Maybe it was my hatred of Andy overwhelming my rememberence. Although honestly, now I'm not sure. Andy's levels are going to be longer than Max's, but will Max being around at the final level make up for it? If I have to play through the last level with Grit, Andy and Sami, I'm going to cry. It's going to be agony even with save states.
Posted: 11/9/2007 3:44 PM
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Mechuyael
Joined: 2/1/2007
Posts: 245
Location: Israel
Oh, so the best way (S/A rank) isn't the fastest way? That does sound like it could make for a good watch.
Posted: 11/9/2007 4:07 PM
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
Mechuyael wrote:
Oh, so the best way (S/A rank) isn't the fastest way? That does sound like it could make for a good watch.
I'm just going for whatever beats the level fastest, regardless of rank. Usually I'll end up getting a good rank anyway, but sometimes its just faster to let units die rather than maneuver in a way to save them, so my technique is usually sub-S levels. The best way to get max technique is once you have the units you need to clear a map, keep building infantry back home to pad your technique score, something I don't bother with since I don't care about rank. I'll also need to do at least one of the Kanbei missions slower than the requirement, to avoid the 3 Sonja levels. I can't remember if that prevents S rank. If someone wanted to make an all S rank playthrough (including every bonus mission), that would be awesome. Edit: Andy's version of Mission 4 is almost 2000 frames faster.
Posted: 11/9/2007 8:17 PM
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samurai_goroh
Editor, Player (54)
Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
Nice, I'll watch this WIP later & comment if I think there's an error somewhere... Well, since you mentioned that you're focussing on real-time speed, don't think that AW Revival's page will help you out, but is nice to have other strats... I also have some raw codes for this game, but I think you might not need them. The only useful ones (which I know) would be the CO gauge & Fog of War flag, I guess... BTW, I saw that there's version 1.0 & 1.1, do you know what the differences are? And, will you use the bug to edit maps to finish a long one faster? (although it takes some time to perform the bug...). The bug is mentioned here
I'm the best in the Universe! Remember that!
Posted: 11/9/2007 10:14 PM
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Tremalkinger
Joined: 10/24/2007
Posts: 23
WIP updated, now has Zero through Five. Six is done but I want to redo it, so its not included.
samurai goroh wrote:
Nice, I'll watch this WIP later & comment if I think there's an error somewhere...
I'll definitely check out that website. I've been doing all of my strategies from scratch as I get to the map, so even though I made every effort to make it perfect, I'm sure at least some (if not all) can be optimized. As for the glitch, I'd never heard of it before this. I think I'll refrain, but it's something to consider for a different run. And no, I have no idea what the differences are. My ROM is 0095_-_Advance_Wars_(U)(Mode_7), if that tells you what version I'm playing on. I don't even know. People seem to be able to play my WIP without issues.
Posted: 11/9/2007 11:14 PM
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samurai_goroh
Editor, Player (54)
Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
ROM #0095 is v1.0 and ROM #0299 is v1.1 I got both, I'll see if it runs well on the latter & comment your run :) Edit: Seems that in v1.1, it desynchs on map 4 (Max Strikes!)... As for the run, well seems pretty fast paced. To bad that you'll need to sacrifice some technique points for that, getting a perfect S rank is more appealing, but of course that would take longer... Seems you have a FoW map next, the address code to change the fog is located at 0300431C, keep in mind that the enemy ignores the fow, but you can't...
I'm the best in the Universe! Remember that!
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