I still think that it would be a better idea to have some kind of groups of "starred" movies instead of just listing them all as individual movies. The most representative movie of a group would be used in the list, and by clicking something in it the whole group could be expanded, or something along those lines. This way the list gets less cluttered.
I'm not only referring to movies of a specific game, but movies about a specific franchise. For example, I still think there are too many supermario movies in the starred list. Most if not all of them could be collapsed into this kind of (optionally expandable) group.
This would also allow more movies of the same game or franchise to get a "secondary star" of sorts. Ie. it's not in the main list, but it appears if a group is expanded. It would work as a kind of "see also" secondary list.
Just an idea.
That could be a logical progression of Tub's idea brought up in the "request for clarification: concept demo" thread, which I'm still in huge support of. If I knew PHP or whatever this site uses I might even try to code it myself to get the ball rolling. :)
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
OK, I'm going to request some redistribution of stars. Feel free to accept/refute/whatever these ideas.
I currently think that there are too many "franchised stars." That being said, the following starred movies should be destarred, so as to add more flavor and distribution to the recommended movies:
Sonic 3 and Knuckles: while it is a great run, I don't think it should really be recommended to first time viewers. Too much is going on in such a fast paced game, and it offers nothing of base entertainment that the Sonic 2 run doesn't already offer.
Super Mario Bros 2: SMB2 is basically SMB3 but with grabbing stuff and less entertainment.
Castlevania: I feel that this could be replaced with the better looking/sounding Castlevania 4
Bionic Commando/HnF: a fairly outdated run that could be replaced with a handful of other runs. This one I'm on the fence about.
Legend of Zelda: Since we are already using a much more entertaining A Link to the Past in the queue, I don't see what LoZ has to offer new viewers.
I would love to see the following runs starred at some point in the future:
Castlevania 4: already stated
Super Punch Out!: a very fast paced and variable run.
Gimmick: Either run for this game is very entertaining.
The Lost Vikings: The only 3 player run on the site. Also one of the most entertaining.
Harmony of Dissonance: IRC goers are saying that HoD should replace Circle of the Moon. I think that, if anything, they would compliment eachother as recommended runs.
Boulder Dash: A very simple puzzle game made insanely complex by CAD.
I'll just post what I think of your points.
The stars you wanted to remove:
Zurreco wrote:
Sonic 3 and Knuckles: while it is a great run, I don't think it should really be recommended to first time viewers. Too much is going on in such a fast paced game, and it offers nothing of base entertainment that the Sonic 2 run doesn't already offer.
Agreed.
Zurreco wrote:
Super Mario Bros 2: SMB2 is basically SMB3 but with grabbing stuff and less entertainment.
I somehow see your point, but I would still keep it. There are some surprises in the run, and the game is very well known.
Zurreco wrote:
Castlevania: I feel that this could be replaced with the better looking/sounding Castlevania 4
Agreed
Zurreco wrote:
Bionic Commando/HnF: a fairly outdated run that could be replaced with a handful of other runs. This one I'm on the fence about.
Disagreed. I don't know the game, and the only reason I watched it was because it had a star... and it entertained me. I think the star lets people enjoy the run who wouldn't have watched it otherwise.
Zurreco wrote:
Legend of Zelda: Since we are already using a much more entertaining A Link to the Past in the queue, I don't see what LoZ has to offer new viewers.
Strongly disagreed. This is one of the most entertaining movies of the site to me. One of the first movies I would recommand to first time viewers.
The stars you wanted to add:
Zurreco wrote:
Castlevania 4: already stated
Like stated, agreed.
Zurreco wrote:
Super Punch Out!: a very fast paced and variable run.
It's not my type of game, so I can't judge this... others are enjoying it though.
Zurreco wrote:
Gimmick: Either run for this game is very entertaining.
I agree they are entertaining, but I don't think I would give them a star.
Zurreco wrote:
The Lost Vikings: The only 3 player run on the site. Also one of the most entertaining.
Disagreed. I must admit, I don't know the game... but I watched the run. It's probably because I don't know the game, but I wasn't entertained a bit.
Zurreco wrote:
Harmony of Dissonance: IRC goers are saying that HoD should replace Circle of the Moon. I think that, if anything, they would compliment eachother as recommended runs.
HoD could probably take CotM's star.
Zurreco wrote:
Boulder Dash: A very simple puzzle game made insanely complex by CAD.
Disagreed. I also think CAD did a great job on it, it's (to me) just not suitable for a star.
Sonic 3 and Knuckles: while it is a great run, I don't think it should really be recommended to first time viewers. Too much is going on in such a fast paced game, and it offers nothing of base entertainment that the Sonic 2 run doesn't already offer.
Yes, you may be right. Now that I think of it, Sonic runs didn't entertain me back in the days when I just started watching TASes as they do now, mostly because it took me a while to adjust to the speed.
Zurreco wrote:
Super Mario Bros 2: SMB2 is basically SMB3 but with grabbing stuff and less entertainment.
Funny that I think almost the opposite. :) Mostly because SMB3 has more waiting, I guess. But I do agree that SMB2 is a bit worse and less popular as a game.
Zurreco wrote:
Castlevania: I feel that this could be replaced with the better looking/sounding Castlevania 4
Not for the following reasons: NES Castlevania is shorter, the AVI size is MUCH smaller, there's more glitch abuse, and it's more up-to-date. Also, I think more people have played it, which adds to the star factor. Furthermore, the new version that is in production will be even cooler.
Although I agree that Super Castlevania 4 is better in every other aspect (hell, it's one of my favorite games to begin with).
Zurreco wrote:
Bionic Commando/HnF: a fairly outdated run that could be replaced with a handful of other runs. This one I'm on the fence about.
AFAIR, it may be outdated time-wise, but not so precision-wise. Although my opinion on it is that it really can be replaced by other good runs, like Gimmick! (any of them), or Channel X Rockin' Kats, or something else like that.
Zurreco wrote:
Legend of Zelda: Since we are already using a much more entertaining A Link to the Past in the queue, I don't see what LoZ has to offer new viewers.
The same thing as with Castlevania, with an exception that I don't like Zelda games at all. Still, LoZ was interesting to watch, while ALttP got boring after half an hour or so.
Zurreco wrote:
Super Punch Out!: a very fast paced and variable run.
You must be kidding.
Zurreco wrote:
The Lost Vikings: The only 3 player run on the site. Also one of the most entertaining.
I didn't find it too entertaining, and I'm not sure if a beginner will.
Zurreco wrote:
Boulder Dash: A very simple puzzle game made insanely complex by CAD.
Boulder Dash has a bit too little to offer to beginners, I think.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
I agree with Zurreco on the following runs --
SMB2 -- I never realised this had a star until you mentioned it. A good run, but it doesn't really offer much that SMB doesn't (which is without a star although it is considered frame perfect).
Gimmick! -- Nitsuja's run is worthy I feel. It would be good for potential TASers as it demonstrates a prime example of a TASable game. Colour, variation, fast movement, it's all in there.
HnF -- The only reason I think this got a star for is how good the movement looks, however, this same style of movement is already shown in a much better form in Umihara Kawase.
HnF -- The only reason I think this got a star for is how good the movement looks, however, this same style of movement is already shown in a much better form in Umihara Kawase.
Agreed, though HnF is still pretty cool to watch :)
Sonic 3 and Knuckles: Finally someone agrees with me. The Sonic 3 runs have never impressed me in any way. I have never understood why they are so popular.
Super Mario Bros 2: I disagree here, the SMB2 run has enough variation and good glitches to make it entertaining.
Castlevania: Completely agreed. The CV4 run is, IMO, way better than the CV run.
Bionic Commando/HnF: I disagree here too. I have never played the game but I still find the run very entertaining.
Legend of Zelda: Most definitely disagree. The darknut fights are amazing. This is probably in my top-3 runs.
Super Punch Out!: Hmm... Maybe when hell freezes over? No star for this one.
Gimmick: The runs are pretty good, but I think the stars should be given to runs of more popular and well known games.
The Lost Vikings: Did not really entertain me. Disagreed.
Harmony of Dissonance: Hmm. I actually have no opinion on this matter.
Boulder Dash: Haven't actually watched this one.
To summarize: I agree that S3&K and Castlevania should lose their stars. Your other suggestions I don't agree with.
I wonder how hard it'd be to get an "anti-Star" award, like my prior-mentioned "Golden Feces".
For runs that are technically good but are entertainment-wise horrible (due to the game), like Jaws. Or Dark Castle.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles: Surprising to myself, I agree with de-starring now. It's just...too much, for me, since it was redone. On the other hand, the updated Sonic 2 is excellent for beginners to see some 2-player cooperation, and the majority of the levels are played in some type of way that resembles traditional Sonic gameplay + doom speed.
Castlevania / Castlevania 4: Tough one. I like them both a lot, for different reasons. I think I'd go with Castlevania 4 over the original, though. I'm not sure how much it can be improved but I actually just watched it last night and was still surprised at the amount of enemy boosting there is to be found. As a bonus, the music is just amazing in that game.
SMB2 / SMB3: I think they are different enough to star them both. I personally don't like SMB2 nearly as much, but it is a great demonstration of what tools can do to a game most people know fairly well. Speaking of popular runs I don't like, every Zelda run.
Gimmick: Yes, this is a prime star candidate. Not too short, not too long, good graphics/sound, nice abuse. I'd vote for the full run, myself.
Bionic Commando: Zurreco, I'll fight you forever on keeping this star :D
Harmony of Dissonance: I agree with Zurreco, though my opinion could easily be filled with bias since I did the run.
Stars to be included in the EVERYTHING MUST GO SALE:
Umihara Kawase: Yes I know it's got neat physics. It's still the lamest run since lame came to lame town. Go watch Ninja 5-0 if you want some more realistic swinging skills than Bionic Commando.
Mega Man X/X2 dual run: And while were at it, does this scream "concept demo" to anyone else?
River City Ransom: What exactly is appealing to a newcomer about this outdated run?
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
While we're at it, I think the 96 exit run of Super Mario World is better suited for first time viewers than the 11 exit run.
As far as I can tell, the biggest reason the 11 exit run has had the SMW star is its length, newcomers prefer the short runs bla bla. I don't think this is unreasonable and might be correct.
However, with the 120 star Mario 64 run recently getting the 16 exit run's star, I feel it's time to voice my opinion about the SMW runs again. I think the 96 exit run is far more impressive looking, and everything I've read about the 96 exit run from others seem to suggest it has no problem keeping a viewer's interest for the entirety of the run (which in my opinion can't be said about the 120 star M64 run).
Just something to perhaps take a second look at. All this being said, the current 96 exit run is of relatively poor quality, so I understand some people would be opposed to starring it for the time being because of possible improvements. In that case we might perhaps revisit this as a new 96 exit run is published.
River City Ransom: What exactly is appealing to a newcomer about this outdated run?
I've got to admit that this was the first run I ever saw on this site. As a result, I got hooked, so for my own selfish reasons I'd have to fight to keep it starred.
Umihara Kawase: Yes I know it's got neat physics. It's still the lamest run since lame came to lame town. Go watch Ninja 5-0 if you want some more realistic swinging skills than Bionic Commando.
Mega Man X/X2 dual run: And while were at it, does this scream "concept demo" to anyone else?
River City Ransom: What exactly is appealing to a newcomer about this outdated run?
Regarding Umihara: Indeed. I watched it and got bored out of my mind, not to mention at least one of those movies desyncs in SNES9x when I tried it. I had to fast forward a lot because, while the physics were interesting, it was still boring. Ninja 5-0 was a lot faster paced and a lot more fun to watch.
Meggerman X/X2: I disagree here. This is a run that truly shows how incredible a tool-assisted superplay can be and really defines creativity. It takes a lot of work to make it, and it was interesting to see both games played to completion with the same input.
River City Ransom: Maybe when it's improved, but for now, meh.
I think, one game that deserves a big fat star is Mike Tyson's Punch Out.......!!!.........
Reason: The game gets pwned in a way that is easily seen to the new viewer... and is a well-known game.
I think, one game that deserves a big fat star is Mike Tyson's Punch Out.......!!!.........
Reason: The game gets pwned in a way that is easily seen to the new viewer... and is a well-known game.
Agreed. Super Punchout is entertaining, but I think most of us got our asses handed to us in the day by the original :P
I forgot to mention SMW96 vs 11. Yeah I completely agree with Fabian; there's so much more that can be demonstrated in the full run.
To me, MMX/X2 is two sub-par runs that happen to share controller input. Neat in concept, not in practice.
Maximus: I understand your position because Bionic Commando was the first run I saw when I got here that really made me go "whoa!", or whatever exclamation I was using at the time.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I have to say I agree with removing stars from Umihara Kawase and MMX/X2. I have never understood the purpose of the dualrun and I can't understand how ANYONE can find it entertaining to watch. As JXQ said, they are just 2 low quality movies running at the same time for me. (Don't even get me started on the quadrun where, thanks to lag frames, the connection between the inputs is so obscure that you might as well use different inputs and no one would know).
As for the MTPO games, I would never ever star either one. They are simply boring and produce no entertainment for me whatsoever.
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Kyrsimys wrote:
Super Mario Bros 2: I disagree here, the SMB2 run has enough variation and good glitches to make it entertaining.
At what point do we draw the line when it comes to "this Mario game is different enough?" Like I said, SMB2 is just SMB3 but with more characters and less entertainment.
Kyrsimys wrote:
Super Punch Out!: Hmm... Maybe when hell freezes over? No star for this one.
Reason? I find each fight to be entertaining in its own sort of "how will he KO this guy?" fashion. SPO! is probably one of my most watched runs on the site.
JXQ wrote:
Bionic Commando: Zurreco, I'll fight you forever on keeping this star :D
Aside from great music and a cool jumping glitch, what is so great about this run? I played the game back in the day, and watching the run never took me aback.
JXQ wrote:
Umihara Kawase: Yes I know it's got neat physics. It's still the lamest run since lame came to lame town. Go watch Ninja 5-0 if you want some more realistic swinging skills than Bionic Commando.
While it isn't the coolest run on the site, it's very nice to watch. Especially considering how short it is. Plus, if you follow the advice of the publication text and try the game out a bit, it instantly becomes very impressive.
JXQ wrote:
River City Ransom: What exactly is appealing to a newcomer about this outdated run?
"BARF!" The great usage of items and speedy attacks made this a very fun watch for me. It's improvable, so I guess you could de-star this with the hopes of starring an improved version/the GBA version.
Other than that, everyone kinda agrees with the general thought of ditching S3&K, upgrading to CV4, and implementing some more entertaining material, right?
At what point do we draw the line when it comes to "this Mario game is different enough?" Like I said, SMB2 is just SMB3 but with more characters and less entertainment.
This I don't understand at all. The games don't resemble each other one bit, how can you say they're the same? The main entertainment factors in the SMB2 run are the tricks and glitches, none of which are present in SMB3.
Zurreco wrote:
Reason? I find each fight to be entertaining in its own sort of "how will he KO this guy?" fashion. SPO! is probably one of my most watched runs on the site.
Even though I played both games as a kid, the runs are just plain boring to me. I don't really know what else to say.
Zurreco wrote:
Aside from great music and a cool jumping glitch, what is so great about this run? I played the game back in the day, and watching the run never took me aback.
It's been a while since I watched this run but as far as I can remember this was some pretty damn fast action. The use of the hook was just amazing.
Zurreco wrote:
Other than that, everyone kinda agrees with the general thought of ditching S3&K, upgrading to CV4, and implementing some more entertaining material, right?
At what point do we draw the line when it comes to "this Mario game is different enough?" Like I said, SMB2 is just SMB3 but with more characters and less entertainment.
This I don't understand at all. The games don't resemble each other one bit, how can you say they're the same? The main entertainment factors in the SMB2 run are the tricks and glitches, none of which are present in SMB3.
The only thing SMB2 and SMB3 have in common is Mario, and even then, that's only because Nintendo thought it better to use than SMB2J, so they hacked them in.
Past that, it's an entirely different game. Your argument would be correct if it was DDP vs. SMB2, since they are the same minus different characters (and the "play with each character to win")
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
I guess it's just me then. When I play SMB2, I get the feeling that I'm just playing a cartoonish version of SMB3.
FINE KEEP THE STAR SEE IF I CARE! THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT JXQ!
