Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I updated the OP. tl;dr: P C E M ! ! !
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6441
Location: The land down under.
I did do a few tests on a select few games*. (Windows 98)
Tetris Worlds (PS2 port), The Emperor's New Groove (PS1 port), ^Need for Speed III: Hot Pursuit (WHY ARE THE ARROW KEYS TO DRIV-- and I'm on the wall), Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 (Too new, failed) and attempted Croc: Legend of the Gobbos (PS1 port)
Out of the 4 I randomly chose, Croc failed to actually go anywhere for me.
Straight locking up at the title screen before the menu:
Also be mindful of your settings.
Tetris Worlds Recommended Low Quality settings, even bumping to Medium out of curiosity for that game will force crash PCem.
I tested both Tetris Worlds and New Groove with and without a controller (since these are games I play with the controller, even on PC). (PS2, PS4 & X360 Controllers were used)
The amount of double input, input drops or incorrect input was insane. (ordered from least to worse)
Something like DXWind won't do any of the things I listed just then.
I do recommend using it. Just not with a controller inserted unless you can solve whatever I dealt with.
^There are videos that already exist on NfSIII so it was selected as "game that works".
*Tested FCEU (Choppy/Fine), ePSXe (30fps) and failed to run anything on RetroArch.
---
The Italian Job Fails to boot, Fallout 1 & 2 works, Colin McRae Rally without a hitch. Colin McRae Rally 3 is too new of a game. Guilty Gear X boots, crashes PCem.
Here's DOOM btw:
(I mean, it's guaranteed to run without issues)
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
A couple of thoughts on PCem:
* Incredibly easy to use. The menus are all easy to follow and setting up the hardware is very simple.
* You need a pretty good PC to run the best processors available on it. I'm finding some audio choppiness if I run at 233 MHz, and this is the result of my computer running PCem slowly, not PCem running the game slowly. Lowering the processor speed can make some games more playable.
* File management is extremely simple. Nothing weird like chd files. PCem uses .img files that can be opened, added to, and extracted from in WinImage. Floppies and CDs can be mounted easily via menus during emulation.
Some things I tried:
* Diablo 2 - Runs perfectly fine. Had some audio choppiness but I lowered the CPU speed and that fixed it.
* Lego Racers - Predictably, it runs perfectly. FMVs and gameplay run fine.
* Deus Ex - Playable on lower CPU speeds, but the framerate isn't perfect. Upping the CPU speeds improves the in-game framerate but slows the game down for me (runs at 60-70%)
* Game Maker games - I tried a few old indie games too. Anything made with Game Maker 6 and beyond won't work because it needs DirectX 8 and I believe no available display card supports that. Older Game Maker games run ok, like Jumper, Jumper 2, and Iji, but newer ones like Runman and Spelunky don't.
* Clickteam games - Knytt works, and even later MMF games like Within a Deep Forest run fine. I haven't tried anything older but I imagine those work too.
I will try Flash games at some point.
MAME can run Diablo in Win95. But not on ET4000.
ET4000 on mame has some issues with driver of ET4000 from Win95.
I was able to run Diablo on svga_s3 (PCI Number Nine 9FX Vision 330 2.03.10)
It has some issues with mame too.
But at least game works fine.
Some glitchy graphics in windows itself persists.
Also, Diablo works fine under PCem with ET4000.
Install x86 Windows, up to XP, inclusively. Even if we come up with ways to disable some features that may slow the system down or increase its memory usage, there's still no way to distribute it, so we have to install it from scratch.
LitePC has software that can help eliminate some of the features. I've used the trial version of the 98lite product to install WinME in MAME on ct486. Information is available in this thread; I ran into the same problem as that guy about only being able to have VGA display in 16 colors.
Can PCem Win98 run DOOM? Well, a better benchmark would be: Can it run RCT?
Rollercoaster Tycoon, unsurprisingly, runs pretty much flawlessly (comparing it with the GOG release that you can play now). This was the only one that I tried that I recorded video of though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Y-UsjMVvI
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Dacicus wrote:
LitePC has software that can help eliminate some of the features. I've used the trial version of the 98lite product to install WinME in MAME on ct486. Information is available in this thread; I ran into the same problem as that guy about only being able to have VGA display in 16 colors.
This is really nice! I think the problem you had is only really a problem for MAME, PCem just lets you run later hardware, so that problem isn't there. We can still make a guide how to optimize Windows using this tool, to standardize is as much as we can.
teapartycthulu, thanks for participating!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I ran into the same problem as that guy about only being able to have VGA display in 16 colors.
First, backup your .chd disk.
Switch driver of display in Win98 into Standard VGA using "show all drivers" option dot.
Shutdown windows & mame.
Then, use "-isa1 svga_s3" in command line, to have svga_s3 instead.
Then, in display select "show all drivers" and look for "Number Nine 9FX Vision 330".
Reboot.
Try 256 mode \o/
It works in win95. Only one issue, when you trying to switch to Number Nine 9FX Vision 330 it shows this:
I get rid of this using Number Nine 9FX drivers exe installer.
It installed some buggy driver, that was ugly functional, but switching from that wasn't throwing error.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6441
Location: The land down under.
RollerCoaster Tycoon deserves a longer test and a higher resolution to show it stress (1024x768):
Link to video
You'll see it stress later in the video. I do afk at points to make it easier to see the build up.
Spoilers:
(The gif doesn't represent all the animations since I forced static on the trophy so the gif wouldn't be a hassle to do. Yes I know I could've done 2 images but what's the point?)
---
Sheep Dog 'n Wolf (Sheep Raiders) (PS1 Port) runs perfectly fine at 480p, American McGee's Alice runs with tearing and choppiness at 480p (don't touch the video settings only screw with texture details.), Frogger (PS1 Port)... it runs with no music for some reason, Demolition Racer (PS1 Port, WHO THE HELL PRIORITIES FMVs OVER MUSIC?) (PS1 Port) runs fine on highest settings.
Speaking of Racing Games:
(No music for some reason like Frogger)
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Flash Player 9 works in Windows 98, so I tried out some Flash games.
Link to video
They all work, but not very well. Very laggy with lots of missed/held inputs.
EDIT: I should mention some details: this is running on the Pentium MMX 233. It's running at 100% most of the time, with it dipping down into the 60s during some gameplay, especially in Super Meat Boy.
It was requested that I test out a few DOS games that didn't work in JPC-rr, so I made a video. Setting this up is fairly easy, and it's the same hardware as the Win98 setup, just with the 75 MHz Pentium. I booted off the standard JPC-rr FreeDOS disk and it had no complaints. Note the set blaster line - you must set the IRQ to 7, or else there will be some conflicts.
Link to video
I ran into the same problem as that guy about only being able to have VGA display in 16 colors.
First, backup your .chd disk.
Switch driver of display in Win98 into Standard VGA using "show all drivers" option dot.
Shutdown windows & mame.
Then, use "-isa1 svga_s3" in command line, to have svga_s3 instead.
Then, in display select "show all drivers" and look for "Number Nine 9FX Vision 330".
Reboot.
Try 256 mode \o/
This doesn't work in Windows ME. I tried with svga_s3, s3virge, and s3virgedx. They all appear in the "show all drivers" screen, but none of them get beyond 640 x 480 x 16 colors. A fresh install of Windows ME in PCem with the Award SiS 496/497 i486DX/25 and ViRGE/DX did pick up the ViRGE/DX from the beginning, though, so I suspect that the problem is with MAME. I even tried changing the hard disk from the PCem install into a CHD and loading it in MAME, but I got a message about the display adapter not being configured properly when WinME started, and it was back to 640 x 480 x 16 colors.
If you don't want to use the preformatted hard disk images from the Bannister OS install thread, here's one way to create hard disks in sizes that you want and then partition them without worrying about DOS limits (BIOS limits still apply):
Create the image file using chdman or PCem's options or whatever method you prefer.
Run PCem with a machine that has a BIOS that lets you access whatever hard disk size you want. For example, I used the Award 430VX PCI Pentium 133 and was able to partition C2000/H16/S63 (984 MiB) and C10000/H16/S63 (4.8 GiB) disks.
Use FDISK on the FreeDOS 1.2 boot floppy with FAT32 support enabled to create the partition(s).
Format the partition(s) using your preferred method, such as the FreeDOS 1.2 boot floppy or an OS that you have installed on another hard disk.
Joined: 9/12/2014
Posts: 541
Location: Waterford, MI
I get the feeling that tas tools going into upstream MAME is too good to be true..
I mean, being able to tas Windows xp would open a ton of possibilities..
Has any work been done for upstream MAME tas?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
InfamousKnight wrote:
I get the feeling that tas tools going into upstream MAME is too good to be true..
I mean, being able to tas Windows xp would open a ton of possibilities..
Has any work been done for upstream MAME tas?
Not MAME, PCem! MAME doesn't emulate anything above 486. PCem has high chance of being added to bizhawk.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I got FP9 standalone running in TinyCore Linux version 9.0 using the Core-current ISO. The PCem configuration was:
Award 430VX PCI Pentium 150
256 MB RAM
S3 ViRGE/DX
Sound Blaster PCI 128
C1800 H16 S32 hard disk (450 MiB)
Microsoft 2-button serial mouse
Realtek RTL8029AS network card
Use these instructions to install TinyCore to the hard disk*. Note that the Core-current ISO boots to command-line rather than GUI, so you'll have to use the tce-load commands rather that the Appbrowser. Also, the command-line Appbrowser is actually tce-ab, not ab.
Using these instructions, I chose Xprogs.tcz, Xvesa.tcz, flwm.tcz, and aterm.tcz to get a desktop. I installed them by searching for the names in the tce-ab program rather than using wget.
FP9 also requires gtk2.tcz.
You may need to reboot here.
Mount an ISO file or another hard disk containing FP9 and the SWF files. Technically optional here, since you can do this after you get to the desktop.
Run xsetup to choose the display resolution and specify that the mouse is COM1 and 2 buttons.
Run startx to get to the desktop.
Start the terminal using the rightmost graphic at the bottom of the desktop (this is what aterm.tcz installs).
Mount the ISO or hard disk if you didn't do it earlier.
cd to the proper mount point and run ./flashplayer abobo.swf or whatever file you want.
*A few modifications are necessary to those instructions:
When editing menu.lst, use vmlinuz instead of bzImage, then put the word text at the end of that line. The text makes it boot to command-line rather than GUI.
When editing menu.lst, use core.gz rather than tinycore.gz.
There are graphical errors in the FP9 menus, but the SWF files themselves seem to run properly. I haven't tried to get sound working yet, though. Also, the glibc version installed in TinyCore by default is 2.2.x, which is lower than the requirements that Adobe lists on their site. IDK what problems may arise from this, if any. The TinyCore FAQ says that FP10 is unlikely to work due to its requirements, but it only mentions installation as a browser plugin.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Man I can't describe my joy! Does it run at full speed this time? What about Samorost?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
The PCem emulation generally doesn't run at 100% on my computer (it's old), but I don't think it was going at full speed even when accounting for that slowdown.
feos wrote:
What about Samorost?
It does seem to work, but I didn't get far into it because of the slow speed.
I've looked into the sound situation and learned that Linux has two sounds APIs, OSS and ALSA. OSS is the older one. Unfortunately, I can't install it under TinyCore v9.0 because one of the dependencies is missing: oss-modules-4.14.10. ALSA does install but doesn't work properly with the Sound Blaster PCI 128. During boot, I get the error
snd_ens1371 0000:00:13.0: AC'97 0 access is not valid [0x0], removing mixer.
The description for the alsa-config.tcz extension says that it may be necessary for legacy hardware, but I still get that error message during boot after installing it. Older cards, such as AdLib and Sound Blaster 16, don't seem to be detected at all.
To check if something may be wrong with the ALSA installation, I converted the hard disk image to VMDK format using this program called qemu-img.exe. Then I made a VMware VM and used that file as the hard disk. It was able to detect my computer's sound card without problems, and sound worked after I created the .asoundrc file as described here. Note that the default volume might be 0, which I fixed with the command
amixer set Master 100
So I suspect that the sound cards emulated by PCem are too old to use with TinyCore v9.0. An older version that doesn't have missing dependencies for OSS might work.
EDIT:
OK, so I've confirmed that sound works via OSS. Had to go back to TinyCore 7.0. The 8.x versions ran into some kernel panic when booting from the ISO, so I didn't even get them installed. Unfortunately, abobo crashes at the title screen with an "illegal instruction" error.
EDIT2:
Additional testing suggests that the illegal instruction is a FP problem. You can get past it by mashing A at the title screen.
Joined: 9/12/2014
Posts: 541
Location: Waterford, MI
This is exiting! Dude, imagine seeing bizhawk tased in bizhawk! It can run Windows xp, and I wanted to tas midnight club 2 when this gets ported to bizhawk. Maybe even ff7 new threat mod too!
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
While it's a funny idea, I don't think bizhawk's prereqs will install on PCem.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I've been reading more about Linux. Would it be preferred to boot into a graphical environment or into text mode? FP needs the graphical environment to run, but configuring everything would probably be easier in text mode. Also, would we want a full desktop environment, or just the minimum necessary to run FP?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Well as long as there are 100% reproducible steps on what to install/launch, anything that makes FP easier is fine. The only reason I ever wanted minimalism is so that we could upload an image that's ready for mounting and playing right away. And from installing Debian I know that graphical environments occupy several gigabytes. So developing the workflow for FP would just mean the environment would be way bigger, and not so handy to host (yet still possible thanks to mega).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Also be mindful of your settings.
Tetris Worlds Recommended Low Quality settings, even bumping to Medium out of curiosity for that game will force crash PCem.
I tested both Tetris Worlds and New Groove with and without a controller (since these are games I play with the controller, even on PC). (PS2, PS4 & X360 Controllers were used)
The amount of double input, input drops or incorrect input was insane. (ordered from least to worse)
Something like DXWind won't do any of the things I listed just then.
I do recommend using it. Just not with a controller inserted unless you can solve whatever I dealt with.
^There are videos that already exist on NfSIII so it was selected as "game that works".
*Tested FCEU (Choppy/Fine), ePSXe (30fps) and failed to run anything on RetroArch.
---
The Italian Job Fails to boot, Fallout 1 & 2 works, Colin McRae Rally without a hitch. Colin McRae Rally 3 is too new of a game. Guilty Gear X boots, crashes PCem.
Here's DOOM btw:
(I mean, it's guaranteed to run without issues)
I get rid of this using Number Nine 9FX drivers exe installer.
It installed some buggy driver, that was ugly functional, but switching from that wasn't throwing error.
(The gif doesn't represent all the animations since I forced static on the trophy so the gif wouldn't be a hassle to do. Yes I know I could've done 2 images but what's the point?)
---
Sheep Dog 'n Wolf (Sheep Raiders) (PS1 Port) runs perfectly fine at 480p, American McGee's Alice runs with tearing and choppiness at 480p (don't touch the video settings only screw with texture details.), Frogger (PS1 Port)... it runs with no music for some reason, Demolition Racer (PS1 Port, WHO THE HELL PRIORITIES FMVs OVER MUSIC?) (PS1 Port) runs fine on highest settings.
Speaking of Racing Games:
(No music for some reason like Frogger)
