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Posted: 4/12/2005 9:01 AM
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Kyrsimys
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
quietkane wrote:
If you're referring to the multicolored blocks puzzle, there are no unnecessary movements for that solution.
Actually I meant a different block. You do it again in the beginning of Tanbel tower, so I'm probably just missing something. It just seems to me that pushing a block is slower than walking, but you simply push the block as far as it goes instead pushing it a few times and then walking beside it. (the block in the question is in of the first rooms, you push the block to get to a pot)
Posted: 4/12/2005 5:09 PM
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qbproger
Joined: 12/7/2004
Posts: 69
I was curious about that too, but it might be to manipulate the crab to avoid a battle.
Posted: 4/12/2005 6:50 PM
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quietkane
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Kyrsimys wrote:
quietkane wrote:
If you're referring to the multicolored blocks puzzle, there are no unnecessary movements for that solution.
Actually I meant a different block. You do it again in the beginning of Tanbel tower, so I'm probably just missing something. It just seems to me that pushing a block is slower than walking, but you simply push the block as far as it goes instead pushing it a few times and then walking beside it. (the block in the question is in of the first rooms, you push the block to get to a pot)
Ah. If it's the block in Tanbel Tower that I'm thinking of, going around it involves fighting the scorpion there, either because it blocks my exit or because it runs into me while I'm walking around the block. If I stop pushing the block two steps earlier I can keep it from blocking my exit, but I have to take a couple of extra steps to do so, so it turns out to be exactly the same number of frames. Edit: Oh, I just found the one in Alunze basement. I'm not sure why I push that one so far. Might just have been carelessness. I guess I can test it. If there's no reason for it, though, it can be hex-edited out. Shouldn't change anything relevant in the rest of the run.
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Posted: 4/12/2005 7:08 PM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
Is it possible to not bring up the menu screen to avoid random battles on the world map? I was pretty sure that the chance of hitting an enemy on the next step never goes up to 100%, in which case it could be postponed indefinitely (Dragon Warrior-style) without bringing up the menu.
Posted: 4/13/2005 4:36 AM
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quietkane
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
On the contrary, encounters are determined based on the number of steps you've taken. Taking a different path (almost) never changes the encounter rate. There is one exception to this: for whatever reason (and I don't know why) you cannot enter battle on a bridge. That's why my battle-free stretch between Sudeltan and Alunze is so long. Pausing between steps doesn't change anything, either. I tried that many times, and it never seems to affect which step you encounter something on. (Nor the group you encounter.) In fact, pauses don't seem to affect anything in this game. If it weren't for the clock in the menu screen, I'd almost think the game doesn't actually keep track of time. Everything seems to be mostly step-count based. (And opening the menu affects way more than it appears to, as well.) Also, the amount of time spent in the menu doesn't seem to affect the encounter rate at all, nor does flipping through the options or entering sub-menus. It may have a very subtle effect (like changing the encounter after next) but it doesn't do anything immediately noticeable. I know it's annoying, but at some point it becomes less of a bother. (For a number of reasons. I get the Warp spell when Selan joins, the towns get closer together after Aleyn, and when I get Excerion or whatever the ship's name is I shouldn't have to avoid nearly as many battles. Once I have the sub, I can avoid overworld battles effortlessly.)
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Posted: 4/13/2005 6:40 AM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
quietkane wrote:
On the contrary, encounters are determined based on the number of steps you've taken.
Ah, I must have been thinking of Lufia, not Lufia II. Interesting that they changed the random encounter formula to be more like what the Final Fantasy games almost always use.
Posted: 4/21/2005 7:22 PM
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Mlandry
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 325
any progress?
Posted: 4/22/2005 5:11 AM
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quietkane
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
No. :( First, I'm trying to figure out Hex-editing so's I can fix that stone I push two steps more than I need to in Alunze's basement. It's taking me a while to get used to looking at the code. Sorry. =\ Second, I've hit an inner turmoil about the run as it stands. I have counted four different mistakes in the run, right now, and two different facets of my personality are at war over them. On the one hand is the perfectionist in me, which can't stand to see mistakes in my work, even minute ones. On the other hand is the lazy part of me, which doesn't want to go through Tanbel Tower two more times. Especially since one of those mistakes only loses 8 frames; most people watching the run won't even notice. (Next shortest loses 16, then the two which cause desynchs lose 19 each.) I really am very torn over this, as it would be a lot of work to go through that Tower again. (Twice, at that, plus the short visit to Tanbel itself.) In any case, once I've fixed the Alunze basement thing I'll come to a decision and either fix the two runs on the tower or just move on to Clamento. Also, I had a huge paper due this Monday which I spent most of last week on, but that's not why I still haven't made any progress.
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Posted: 4/22/2005 7:26 PM
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Mlandry
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 325
well usually for RPG games people make a test run 1st because errors like this are almost unavoidable on the first run through. A test run is basicly the same but not going back to fix those mistakes that are really far away. Besides, when you go through the game a 2nd time its a lost faster as you just have to copy your already made strategies for everything
Posted: 4/23/2005 1:04 AM
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quietkane
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
I don't have the patience for that. I might re-do the run in the future, after it's (hopefully) published, but I just don't have the patience to go through this game twice before I have a finished product. It just takes too much work. Everything except walking on the overworld and normal walking in dungeons has to be done frame-by-frame, and walking in dungeons has to be done at 10% speed because the game has a screwy input system. (Anyone who played the game on the console and ever wondered why you kept walking into walls? It's because the game only acts upon the input received two frames before a given step is taken. Subsequent input does not matter. Since each step only takes four frames, that means human reflexes just aren't fast enough to turn before you actually reach the wall. Hence people take lots of unnecessary steps when they play at normal speed, and since that's the primary determination variable, the pseudo-random factor for this game is incredibly high.) It totals up to about 2 seconds right now. If I keep averaging that much, it'll be like 30 seconds of wasted time by the end of the run. That's less than the standard improvement between first and second run, anyway, right? Meh. I dunno. I'll have something worth posting by next weekend.
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Posted: 4/23/2005 1:36 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Yeah, most games take about 2 frames for the "stimulus to response" delay.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 4/23/2005 3:01 AM
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TheAxeMan
Ambassador, Experienced player (709)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
As far as making a test run, it's something I don't have the patience not to do. If you look at the best runs on this site, most of them are either an improved version or were developed after at least one previous full run (usually more!). In fact, it can often be a faster development when you do the test run first because you will figure out some solution to all the tough problems. The next time through, the problem reduces to finding a better solution. Having the baseline to compare everything to, rather than simply theorizing that method x is faster than method y is just infinitely helpful. In general, you'll also find more tricks as you go on, and in your next version you'll use these tricks from the start. Of course, that's if you want to make a publishable version. If you don't have the patience, you can stop at the test run and let someone else take over. Seeing a test run or rejected submission for a game has definitely inpired me to make a higher-quality version, partly because the dirty work of doing that first test run has been done. Just because a run isn't accepted and published doesn't mean the effort was wasted--many people browse these forums and will see it. Someone will eventually pick it up and hammer out a polished version, particularly for a game this great. So don't worry about every detail this time through. Any full run is better than nothing, and that's what we have right now. :)
Posted: 4/29/2005 8:51 PM
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quietkane
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Well, I had a paper due Wednesday and I've got another due Monday, and after that Finals start, so it looks like I'm not going to be making any progress on this for another two weeks or so. I was hoping to have time between papers, but sadly that was not to be, so I still haven't made any more progress. I've done some of the planning for the next two dungeons, but none of the actual run, so.... The good news is that I've figured out hex-editing, so I've eliminated the two stupid mistakes I made in the run. (The Alunze basement block that I push too far and the extra two steps in Tanbel.) There's two judgement errors I made which I think I can hex out, but I don't want to try just yet, because I don't know what kind of de-synchs it'll cause. Also, watching through the run, I think I've got a couple of one- or two-frame mistakes in a couple of the early battles, but you can't tell unless you're paying close attention and watching at a slower speed, so I'm not gonna bother with them, just yet. At some point I'm going to have to figure out whether it's possible to hex what I buy in shops without doing much re-recording. That would prevent me buying one-too-many boomerangs in the future. (Assuming I continue buying them. I'm not sure exactly how useful Ex-Boomers are against the top-notch enemies.) Anyway, the fixed run's here. There's no real difference between that and the last thing I posted, though, so don't feel compelled to watch it, or anything. :p
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Posted: 5/7/2005 4:49 AM
(Edited: 5/8/2005 12:12 AM)
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quietkane
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
I have an answer to the hexing what I buy in shops question: any/all desynchs caused are fixable via hex. I've done a run through the Ruby Cave and remembered that I hadn't purchased enough Escapes or any Warps back in Alunze. So I went and hexed the run at that point to buy an extra Escape and a Warp (and an Antidote, because I can't manage to keep the Spider from poisoning Maxim and it's faster to buy it in Alunze than to visit the shop in Clamento.) I have spent the time since trying to get the run to synch up. All the desynchs are very minor, but every time I get the run to synch up again something else down the line is 10 frames off, or something. As of right now I've gotten everything but the fight with the Spider to synch up, and that fight's desynching because I don't equip the Insect Crush on Maxim like I'm supposed to. (It's his best weapon for that fight, trust me.) I can't seem to convince the spider to drop the Spido Jewel in a timely manner, and it's not nearly as essential as the Catfish Rock or Camu Jewel are/have been so I'm not gonna bother. Yes, that means no Gades Blade. Sorry, but it wasn't looking like I'd be able to take Gades without levelling anyway. I'm also noticing that some enemies change their actions based on different things. The spider, for example, is totally dependant on the action that Tia takes. (Whether because she's Tia, the first character to act, or the last character to choose an option, I don't know. But what the spider does is completely independant of what Maxim and Guy do for the entire fight, with the exception that when it reaches a certain HP threshold it gains the ability to cast Stronger.) Whereas Camu mostly reacted to how much damage he'd taken at that point. This is kind of dismaying, 'cause it means that I'll have to figure out how to manipulate each boss independantly. *sigh* Oh, well. I knew this run was gonna be a lot of work when I started it. Feel free to leave advice, comments, or other input.
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Posted: 5/7/2005 3:26 PM
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qbproger
Joined: 12/7/2004
Posts: 69
does the file you posted desync at the spider fight?
Posted: 5/7/2005 9:02 PM
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quietkane
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Shouldn't. Is it desynching for you? Edit: Hexed everything back into synch-ey land. The link in the above post should now direct you towards a file that beats the spider, then warps out of the cave and back to clamento and goes to Parcelyte. Just doing a quick test run through the Treasure Shrine at normal speed, it shouldn't take long to do. The only out-of-the-way treasure I might need is the Bat Rock, but I can beat Pierre and Danielle without it so I'm not going to grab it. I am going to grab the Anger Brace, Cold Rapier, and Mind Ring because they all make things go faster in the doubles rounds against the bosses. Also, up to this point I haven't much concerned myself with optimizing level up stats because I didn't think there was much variation. (And because getting the Catfish rock and Camu Jewel were far more important than getting a couple extra hit points.) I've since discovered that there is a good bit of variation because one of the fights I tested gave Guy 17 Hp, 5 Str, 4 Def, and 6 Mgr and the other gave him 10 HP and 1 Str... and that was it. So I'm gonna tinker around with the Spider boss a bit before I move onto the treasure shrine, but not a whole lot since I've already resigned myself to going through the game a second time at some point. (Maybe next year, but at some point.) In other news, my finals start this Monday, so don't expect anything big for a week or so.
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Posted: 5/18/2005 3:00 AM
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quietkane
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Update time! WIP Save states The run's now just over an hour long. (1:10:43, I think.) We're just about 1/3 of the way through the game, so the completion time is looking to be ~3:30:**. Of course, I plan on spending some time in the Ancient Cave, and I don't know what that's actually going to do to the time. I'm also going to collect all five sets of Dragon Eggs, and it remains to be seen exactly how much time that'll take when optimized. ('Cause the random placement of the eggs is going to have to be pretty heavily manipulated.) Anyway, just letting you know that the finished run will be quite long. I've finished the Treasure Shrine. I don't need the Mind Ring, I've discovered, but it helps manipulate behaviors and it's going to be really important in Bound Kingdom's dungeon. Anyway, I'm fairly confident that all four fights in the Shrine are optimized. The last two definitely are, it's just a little up in the air as to whether I could've used IPs in the first two without costing time in the last two. The final battle (against Danielle) can actually be done in two rounds, but doing so involves letting Selan die. This would probably actually cost more time later than it saves now, because I'd have to revive her at some point, which means going to a church, which would be kinda out of the way. In any case, it's highly beneficial to keep her alive for this fight because the level she gains is godly. Speaking of level gains, I tested some of the ones for the Spider fight and I couldn't get any sets that really struck me as better than the one I have now, so I just stuck with it. Guy gets two really good levels, Maxim gets a good balance between the two levels and I think Tia's levels are pretty insignificant, since Selan is the better magic-user and Tia leaves the party eventually, anyway. I don't bother getting the Holy Wings because by the time I'd actually need them I could also have the Magic Bikini, which is preferred over the Holy Wings simply because it has a better Defense value. The Hookshot is exactly 3 frames slower than walking the exact same steps the Hook carries you over. For this reason, it's faster to use the Hookshot if it follows a straighter path which you can't take on foot. You see me do this once in Gordovan Tower, and I'll be looking for other opportunities. For whoever it was who wanted me to beat Gades and earn the Gades Blade: I admit, it would be damn impressive if I got the Gades Blade right now, and it is possible to beat Gades at my current level. (Guy can survive a standard attack from Gades if he's at full health, and I can manipulate Gades into hitting Guy every round.) However..... Gades has 7500 HP, and I can't deal more than 350 damage in a given round, and I can't deal that much every round. (Two out of every three rounds at best, but it's usually every other round.) So the fight itself would take a long ass time, and it's far more work than I'm willing to do right now. I might consider having the next run grab the Gades Blade, but not this one. You'll notice that I walk into Gades' room and then back out and then back in. That's to manipulate him into using Destructo Wave the first round, and it's the fastest way I found of doing so. (And it is faster than just waiting until round 2 to lose.) I don't grab the Scimitar or Block Shield (the items in the room behind Gades) because they don't do a single thing for me. The Fire Dagger is going to be Maxim's weapon of choice for the next two dungeons, and the Cold Rapier is just as good as the Scimitar for Selan. The Block Shield just doesn't have as useful an IP as what Tia and Selan are currently wearing. In retrospect, I should've visited Gordovan itself before I get to the tower so that I can warp back to it on my way to Merix village. I didn't, however, and it's not hexable. So that's going in my notes for the next run. The WIP doesn't contain this because I didn't think of it when I was recording, but I'm going to warp back to Elcid (or Sudeltan, depending on which is faster) to go back and grab the Dragon Egg in the Cave to Sudeltan before going back to Parcelyte. I think this is the only Egg I have to backtrack to get, so I might as well do so now. (And I have to get it, because I plan on getting the Egg Ring to make the last six dungeons or so ridiculously easy.) Ummmmm.... that's all the questions I can anticipate. If you've got any more, don't hesitate to ask. I know it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. Oh, and after I go and fetch that Dragon Egg I'm going to take a break from Lufia for a while and toy around with Claymates for a bit, and possibly see if I can help halamantriel with manipulating the Sandworm for his Illusion of Gaia run. Expect the next update on the first weekend of June, or so.
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Posted: 5/18/2005 2:03 PM
Post subject: Take you time
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agopo
Joined: 2/25/2005
Posts: 68
Location: Germany
As long as you keep working on this run it's all good. This is coming along nicely (and - as it's one of my favourite games - I can say this with emphasis!). :P Just don't make us wait too long pls.
Erklärung der Relativität: "Wenn du deine Nase in meinen Po steckst, haben wir beide eine Nase im Po. Nur ich bin relativ besser dran."
Posted: 5/22/2005 2:11 AM
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Enhasa
Joined: 1/14/2005
Posts: 216
quietkane wrote:
The run's now just over an hour long. (1:10:43, I think.) We're just about 1/3 of the way through the game, so the completion time is looking to be ~3:30:**. Of course, I plan on spending some time in the Ancient Cave, and I don't know what that's actually going to do to the time. I'm also going to collect all five sets of Dragon Eggs, and it remains to be seen exactly how much time that'll take when optimized. ('Cause the random placement of the eggs is going to have to be pretty heavily manipulated.) Anyway, just letting you know that the finished run will be quite long.
This is what I don't understand. You are obviously very thorough in optimizing (counting frames, manipulating Gades, etc), but yet you're going to get the Dragon Eggs. You're not going for a 100% items run or anything like that either. Other than this, I love what I see. Please fill me in?
"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/
Posted: 5/23/2005 3:21 AM
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quietkane
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
The reason I'm getting the Dragon Eggs in this run is because it didn't occur to me until my second trip through Tanbel Tower that it would be faster to not grab the Egg Ring. This is largely because I hadn't yet witnessed just how much manipulation can affect boss fights. Since I've already gotten one Egg I figure it's better to go ahead and see that through to the bitter end rather than just have it be wasted time. Since I already know that the second run is going to be significantly faster than this one, I figure this one should do something differently anyway. So the short answer is basically because I feel like having a run with the Egg Ring and I figure it ought to be one that gets obsoleted anyway.
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Posted: 5/23/2005 5:30 AM
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Enhasa
Joined: 1/14/2005
Posts: 216
Good answer. I guess I was confused by the posts earlier where you said you didn't have time for a test run. Oh and I'm pretty sure that an optimized run would include the Ancient Cave. You would manipulate to get awesome equipment from blue chests and Providence out ASAP. This equipment would then be able to last the rest of the game.
"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/
Posted: 5/23/2005 5:35 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Blah, just call it a test run and get over it.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 5/25/2005 12:01 AM
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quietkane
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
I refuse to call it a test run because I'm stubborn that way. So there. :p And I am going to submit this run when I finish it, even though I doubt it'll be published. (Because it's going to be at least 1.5 months before I finish the second, and that's assuming I spend more time on it than I have on this one.) And it would just feel wrong to submit an official test run.
Enhasa wrote:
Oh and I'm pretty sure that an optimized run would include the Ancient Cave. You would manipulate to get awesome equipment from blue chests and Providence out ASAP. This equipment would then be able to last the rest of the game.
Yeah. I'm not looking forward to reaching the cave, 'cause it's going to involve a lot of testing. Worse still, testing I'll have to do frame-by-frame. I will have earned the "manipulates luck" tag. It's also going to be interesting to see how early I can get the Providence. There are reports of getting it as early as floor 10. I wonder if I can break that record.
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Posted: 6/11/2005 8:00 PM
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quietkane
Player (66)
Joined: 3/29/2005
Posts: 229
Location: The boonies.
Update time! WIP (zip file, 14K) Save States from various landmarks in the run. (zip file, 1.4MB) Savestate right where the previous version of the run left off. (zip file, 150K) The run has now reached what I consider the official midway-point of the game. I would like to thank whoever recommnded that I use the PAL version of the rom, because the NTSC version can't rush all the dialogue in these scenes, but the PAL version can. So this little section of the run is a good bit faster as a result. I haven't backtracked and picked up the egg in the Cave to Sudeltan because it'll be ever-so-slightly faster if I do so once I have the Fire Arrows. So I'm waiting until I have all the other eggs to fetch that one (and the one in Merix Village, which I'd have to backtrack just a little if I wanted to grab it right now.) I don't buy Fireball for Tia because it's a waste of money. There's only one fight where she has an opportunity to use it at all, and Flash not only does suitable damage, its animation is shorter. There're two puzzles in the northern labyrinth that I'm not sure are quite optimized. (The pillars one that gets the Dragon Egg and the bomb one two screens over.) If anyone knows a way to do them faster, please let me know. I don't grab the Thunder Ax, despite its raw power, because it just takes too long to get. No weapon is worth that amount of time, save perhaps the Dragon Blade. I had a hard time getting the Mummies to let me kill them in two rounds. They kept focusing their attacks on one character in the second round (and I can't let anyone die, because the Trolls kill both remaining characters if I do.) but eventually I found a way to stop that. I let the Trolls kill Tia because it saves time and because it's the last fight she's ever involved in anyway so it doesn't matter one bit whether she lives or not. Bound Kingdom's East Tower is a little frustrating. There are several points whre I have to kill all the enemies in the room to continue, and at least one place where I had to go out of my way to stun a monster so it didn't interefere with me as I left the room. I reset in that one room with the Snake and the Snails because I can't win the Snake fight otherwise. (They refuse to be surprised no matter what approach I took, and since they're faster they proceed to kill either Maxim or Guy.) Using the Buster Attack on the snakes isn't the fastest way to leave the room, but it manipulates a faster behavior later. And, believe it or not, I didn't intend to manipulate that behavior at the Monster races, it just kinda happened. I was originally hoping for something that would involve the Medusa just running straight for the goal, but lo and behold, the Skeleton just warped straight to the finish line. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, eh? I'm not entirely sure the fight with Gades needs to take all 11 rounds, but I don't think I'd be able to shave more than 1 round off, and it'd involve a lot of work and probably getting Maxim to use the Glacial Blast a lot more. I skip the Magic Bikini because I just don't need it. I'm pretty sure the path I use in the last section of the tower is optimal. Anyway... as always, questions and comments appreciated.
If life were an RPG, I'd be an NPC.
Posted: 6/11/2005 11:22 PM
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Spoony_Bard
Former player
Joined: 8/17/2004
Posts: 377
This is looking really good, I especially liked the Gades battle, considering how tough he would have been with such low levels playing normally. And we're only now just getting started into the real meat of the game... Still, while I love this particular RPG, some of the plot points are so damn convoluted... "I will sink Seim Island with the device in a tower that is in NO WAY connected to the Island!" "I have your baby! Come to the NORTH LIGHTHOUSE!" And etc... still, that makes the game entertaining. You're coming up on the Ancient Cave soon, any ideas what items you're going to try to get, if you attempt to manipulate it?
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