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Posted: 4/16/2004 8:19 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I was bored so I decided to type up a speed walkthrough for The Legend of Zelda. What's cool is that it's less than a page long, while some Zelda walkthroughs are over 100 pages. Get ready to learn the definition of the word brief: The Legend of Zelda Speed Walkthrough by Michael Fried Abbreviations: U-up, D-down, L-left, R-right, K-key, S-stairway Quest 1 First sword Up+A L U L3 D R Level 3 - L K U K U L2 D S raft Up+A L U2 R U R U triforce Up+A L gambling game, win 50 rubies 2x U blue candle L U2 Level 4 - U2 K L U K U R2 S ladder L2 U2 R3 U triforce Up+A R U4 L Level 1 - U2 K U2 K U K L S bow Up+A U2 R U R K U R triforce R U L U R3 U white sword D R U4 Level 5 - U L2 S L S whistle Up+A U K U R U3 K L3 U triforce Up+A R U R3 100 rubies U R2 D Level 8 - U2 K U2 R S U2 triforce U2 bait L U Level 2 - R K U3 K U K U3 L triforce Whistle to 1, blow whistle again facing right R U L2 D L U arrows L D L U Level 6 - L U2 K U3 R K D R S D K L U2 triforce Whistle to 3, blow whistle again facing left L U2 L U Level 7 - U4 L U2 R4 U R S R2 triforce Up+A whistle to 1 R U L U2 L2 Level 9 - U2 K L S R2 U L S L2 K S U S silver arrows S U3 L S L S U2 zelda
Posted: 4/16/2004 9:32 PM
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Sleepz
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Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael, whats your email so I can send you what I have so far. Ill be back later tonight after Kill Bill, so just post your thoughts about the run on the board.
Posted: 4/16/2004 9:47 PM
(Edited: 4/18/2004 1:05 AM)
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Edit: Email received, email address removed, and comments below.
Posted: 4/17/2004 5:23 AM
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Sleepz
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Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
OK, since there are no comments, I'm guessing you think the run looks fine so far, so Ill go ahead to L5.
Posted: 4/18/2004 12:47 AM
(Edited: 4/18/2004 2:30 AM)
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
since there are no comments That's because I didn't watch it yet, but I'm in the middle of watching it now. So far my only comment is that in level 3, you stabbed a darknut for no reason before bombing the wall on the right. After watching the rest of it I'll post more comments. Edit: In the first dark room in level 4, if you had gone around the left side of the water instead of the right side, you only would have had to kill 1 zol instead of 2. Edit 2: When you fought the boss in level 4, if you made the last hit from higher up and facing down, you would have had a shorter distance to walk to the door. Edit 3: In the room before the boss in level 1, you went half a Link-length farther down than you had to. Edit 4: I'm done watching it and those are all the comments I have, other than that it was very good. Edit 5: I have a question. Whenever you have to wait for an enemy to die or move out of the way, do you always test every frame to make sure you start walking as soon as possible? Also, did you test every frame to make sure you dropped the bomb to kill the level 3 boss as soon as possible? Edit 6: Did you try to get pushed by the bubble when leaving the room with the ladder in level 4? Keep in mind that bubbles don't hurt you, so unless there are still enemies in the room that need to be killed, you should always try to get them to push you. Edit 7: Unless you think you can get a total 20 rupees in levels 5, 8, and 2 without wasting any time at all, it might be better to take a small detour in the rupee room in level 4 by going a few frames up and then a few frames down to get an extra 4 rupees.
Posted: 4/18/2004 2:29 AM
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Sleepz
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Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
I dont see these as significant problems at all: >Edit: In the first dark room in level 4, if you had gone around the left side of the water instead of the right side, you only would have had to kill 1 zol instead of 2. I only kill 1 and just moved the other, and the key is more on the right side. 2nd dark room btw. >Edit 2: When you fought the boss in level 4, if you made the last hit from higher up and facing down, you would have had a shorter distance to walk to the door. It doesnt matter anyways because if wanted to make the last hit from higher up, I would have to MOVE to that position first, so same amount of walking distance to the door, and the boss drops a fairy from the position I kill him in. >Edit 3: In the room before the boss in level 1, you went half a Link-length farther down than you had to. How much time is wasted walking half a Link? >Edit 5: I have a question. Whenever you have to wait for an enemy to die or move out of the way, do you always test every frame to make sure you start walking as soon as possible? Also, did you test every frame to make sure you dropped the bomb to kill the level 3 boss as soon as possible? For the level 3 boss, I had to move a little more forward before dropping the bomb. If I didnt, he drops a fairy instead of bombs. Thanks for going over it though. I was more looking for any mistakes that would waste maybe a whole second or more. Anyways, L5 = 2:23, which is 29 seconds faster. I timed the two blue darknut rooms seperately, and each room was 2 seconds faster using bombs. Looks great at normal speed too. L8 = 1:19, which is 1:04 faster. The blue darknut rooms for this level were 2.5 seconds faster each, and the boss was done a hair faster. L2 = 1:13, which is 8 seconds slower. I think that is reasonable. (8sec) - (2sec for switching to flute) =6 sec / (3 rooms cleared for keys) = 2 seconds per room cleared. I exit L2 at about 15:30, and I'm 1:43 seconds ahead in dungeon time. Just need to finish 6,7,9, which will probably be done by tonight. Ill send you guys the finished run before I submit it. Ramzi, need your email.
Posted: 4/18/2004 2:44 AM
(Edited: 4/18/2004 3:05 AM)
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
you stabbed a darknut for no reason before bombing the wall on the right You still didn't answer this comment. and the key is more on the right side It doesn't matter, if you go around the left side, then when you're walking right, if you turn up when you're directly under the door, you'll still pick up the key. if wanted to make the last hit from higher up, I would have to MOVE to that position first It doesn't matter because you have a certain amount of time to move in between hits, so you can spend that time moving up. How much time is wasted walking half a Link? Even though it wastes very little time, it's easy to notice and it gives the movie an unaccurate appearance. Since it was so close to what you were up to, it would have been easy to redo that part. Edit 2: I might not have made myself clear enough, but I think that of all the things I mentioned, this one is the most important. If you haven't redone this already, I think it's very important that you redo this to save the Link-length of walking, even if it means redoing 3 levels (though I'm not sure if I would be saying this if I was the one making the speed run :). I understand it only saves a small fraction of a second, but appearance is everything (unless of course if a better appearance means a worse time, but that's not the case). I'm pretty sure at least some people will notice it, and someone might even make a comment about it. Edit: and I'm 1:43 seconds ahead in dungeon time It's starting to look like sub-26 might even be possible. Just a few weeks ago we weren't even sure if sub-28 was possible. Sub-26 would be really cool. When you make a 2nd quest speed run, you might want to make it just a continuation of the 1st quest speed run instead of a new speed run where you enter your name as Zelda. Sub-1 hour for both quests would be really cool.
Posted: 4/18/2004 2:50 AM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
I'm not going to have the time to watch and give pointers on the fighting. Michael's your man for that one. I'm going to sit back and wait patiently like everybody else. God speed. If you want me I'm in IRC.
Posted: 4/18/2004 3:19 AM
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Sleepz
Former player
Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Michael Fried wrote:
Edit 2: I might not have made myself clear enough, but I think that of all the things I mentioned, this one is the most important. If you haven't redone this already, I think it's very important that you redo this to save the Link-length of walking, even if it means redoing 3 levels (though I'm not sure if I would be saying this if I was the one making the speed run :). I understand it only saves a small fraction of a second, but appearance is everything (unless of course if a better appearance means a worse time, but that's not the case). I'm pretty sure at least some people will notice it, and someone might even make a comment about it.
Look, I'm not redoing 3 whole levels just because Link took an extra step or did an extra sword swing, and I know you wouldnt either. Nobody besides us would notice, or even care.
Sleepz wrote:
I was more looking for any mistakes that would waste maybe a whole second or more.
Let me know when you find one of these.
Posted: 4/18/2004 9:52 AM
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Bisqwit
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Sleepz wrote:
Look, I'm not redoing 3 whole levels just because Link took an extra step or did an extra sword swing, and I know you wouldnt either. Nobody besides us would notice, or even care.
That's wrong attitude. Errors like that, when they cumulate, are sometimes a reason why I reject a movie.
Posted: 4/18/2004 1:09 PM
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Sleepz
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Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Bisqwit wrote:
That's wrong attitude. Errors like that, when they cumulate, are sometimes a reason why I reject a movie.
Bisqwit, how can you believe that they are errors when you havent even seen the video yet? Only 2 people have seen it, Me and Michael. Michael thinks they are problems, and I think they are not. All the supposed "problems" Michael has brought up about the run wouldnt even save me half a second if all the changes were made. So how can you expect me to throw away 3 days work just because some things dont look "right" in Michael's opinion? I'm not a newb at this. If theres a real problem with my run, then Ill fix it, but in the video, theres no real problems, and I'm not going back to make those changes.
Posted: 4/18/2004 1:15 PM
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Walker_Boh
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Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Uhm. Yeah it´s kinda the right topic for this so I don´t bother to make a new thread. Hope you guys don´t mind. Anyways, I checked the Zelda A link to the past movie @ someones site. Don´t remember his nick but he rans through the whole game. And how it looks he does play it on a SNES, not on an emulator. Overall it´s very impressive but since he doesn´t uses savestates he does alot´s of mistakes like running in to walls and almost dies and so on. Still it´s impressive but ít´s more boring to watch him crash into a wall then watch a perfect run. So I would agree to Bisqwit here. But on the other hand I don´t make the movies. I just watch em and being amazed ;P
/Walker Boh
Posted: 4/18/2004 3:24 PM
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Ramzi
Joined: 3/25/2004
Posts: 459
That LttP video was TSA. He was a real guy. It's impressive non-the-less. For some reason, fighting isn't as amazing to me as knowing the fastest route. And that's what I tried to help solve with Zelda 1: the fastest route. One reason why I chose not to be the one to make the video is because I knew someone would be able to fight faster, and if I made a mistake somewhere, I wouldn't want to redo the entire movie. I'm going to side with Sleepz on this one. If anyone thinks they can fight better than him, and beat his time by a few seconds, go for it. I wouldn't care about it, though, if those are the only changes. This game isn't like Mario 2, where a few seconds are a really big deal. The game is over 26 minutes. I'm going to cut some slack.
Posted: 4/18/2004 3:50 PM
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Phil
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Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
Ppl w8 & C plz
Posted: 4/18/2004 4:02 PM
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Bob_Whoops
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Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA
Unless he was trying to make his movie perfect, like smb, then this doesn't matter. I can understand a days work at most, byt not three days work. Though it would suck if these were the only mistakes that kept him from a perfect run :p
Posted: 4/18/2004 7:58 PM
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Deviance
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 706
keep it the way it is, this is the time attack i'm most excited to see, mainly because it was so dilligently worked on (just look at the size of this thread!). So many of our movies probably have little mistakes like that, but they simply haven't been pointed out yet. I'm with Ramzi on this one, only redo the levels if you find a faster route in the future. Perfection happens over time.
Posted: 4/18/2004 8:46 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Another mistake I forgot to mention yesterday is that in level 1 in the room above the map room, you could have bounced off the stalfos instead of stabbing him and then taking the key. All the supposed "problems" Michael has brought up about the run wouldnt even save me half a second if all the changes were made. I think it would be closer to a whole second. Each extra sword swing wastes about a quarter of a second, and walking an extra Link-length also wastes about a quarter of a second. That's wrong attitude. Errors like that, when they cumulate, are sometimes a reason why I reject a movie. Even though it could be a second or two faster if he redid it, it's still an excellent movie and closer to perfection than most of the other movies on the site, and there are also a lot of people who are looking forward to it, so I don't think it should be rejected just for 1 second. I also want to see how the people at Twin Galaxies react when they see a Zelda speed run in the 26 minute range.
Posted: 4/18/2004 8:57 PM
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Bisqwit
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Yes I already decided a week ago that I'll publish any version that goes under 28 minutes. I was talking about the attitude, not about this particular movie.
Posted: 4/18/2004 9:14 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Would you be willing to publish a swordless movie that wasn't under 28 minutes?
Posted: 4/18/2004 9:17 PM
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Bisqwit
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
I don't know.
Posted: 4/18/2004 9:26 PM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
Would anyone be interested in discussing routes for a swordless quest?
Posted: 4/19/2004 12:50 AM
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Sleepz
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Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
OK, these are NOT mistakes: Another mistake I forgot to mention yesterday is that in level 1 in the room above the map room, you could have bounced off the stalfos instead of stabbing him and then taking the key. No, you cant bounce off that stalfos. Its no mistake. If you dont believe me, then just stop the fmv when you get to that room and try to bouce off that stalfos. You're wrong there. Regarding Level 4 boss: It doesn't matter because you have a certain amount of time to move in between hits, so you can spend that time moving up. If you watch the video again, you will see that I'm in front of him for the 2nd last hit. That means the furthest I can move before he stops flashing is to his side. And once again, killing him in this position is gets me a fairy, which is actually important. So tell me again how I made a "mistake" here. Like you said, the two extra sword swings and link walking an extra tile doesnt even add up to a whole second, so why is this a big deal when I'm doing a lot of the fights several seconds faster than yours and guaranteeing everyone a sub-27 time? You keep bringing these points up as "mistakes" because you weren't in the situation. The point you brought up about the stalfos is proof. You just assumed I made a mistake there by not boucing off like you would normally do, when in fact it wont work in that exact situation. I know I asked for your opinion on it, but this isn't what I was looking for. I sent you the fmv so you can tell me if I made any real screw-ups, such as missing a key, etc. Not one point you brought up would save me any time or help me in any way, and you want me to redo all these levels just to make the changes? Then I have to take the time to explain why I did all these little things, when they shouldn't need to be explained at all. Not only that, you're giving everyone the impression that my video is so full of errors, when it's not, and the video hasn't even been submitted yet. So sorry if I'm just a little irritated here. Bisqwit, regarding the attitude, I think I just explained it.
Posted: 4/19/2004 2:04 AM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
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No, you cant bounce off that stalfos. Its no mistake. If you dont believe me, then just stop the fmv when you get to that room and try to bouce off that stalfos. You're wrong there. I just tried it, and you're correct that you can't bounce off the stalfos, but you can just walk into him and then turn around and you'll pick up the key without having to stab. However, I'm sorry I assumed you made a mistake without trying it out myself. Actually, I forgot that you were crossing water when you stabbed, which means that it wasted even less time, or maybe even none at all, so I guess that makes you right this time. Anyway, even if you weren't crossing water, I'm sorry for being so picky and you're right that no one will notice the mistakes since they're so small. If you watch the video again, you will see that I'm in front of him for the 2nd last hit. That means the furthest I can move before he stops flashing is to his side. And once again, killing him in this position is gets me a fairy, which is actually important. So tell me again how I made a "mistake" here. You're right again. However, my comment could also apply to the level 8 boss, so if you're in a similar situation where there's no fairy, make sure you stay close to the door for the last hit. However, I'm sure I don't need to say tell you this, because I must admit that I was very impressed by the first part of the speed run and I'm sure you're able to figure out the fastest way to kill the bosses on your own. Like you said, the two extra sword swings and link walking an extra tile doesnt even add up to a whole second, so why is this a big deal when I'm doing a lot of the fights several seconds faster than yours and guaranteeing everyone a sub-27 time? I'd hate to see an otherwise perfect run spoiled by just 3 tiny mistakes, but as I said before, I'm sorry for being so picky. I hope you don't take this the wrong way and think I'm just singling you out and trying to make fun of your video and make people think it's bad. I'm just as picky (or maybe even more picky) with my own videos, and as you might have seen in the Super Mario Bros. topic, I'm redoing the whole movie just for a few tenths. Not only that, you're giving everyone the impression that my video is so full of errors, when it's not, and the video hasn't even been submitted yet. How am I giving that impression? I think it's pretty impressive that the pickiest person ever only found 3 mistakes (that won't even be noticed) in your video. Give me any other video on that site, and I'll find at least 100 mistakes, and if you count the route mistakes in my Zelda video, maybe even 1000 mistakes in that video. In case anyone misunderstood, I thought the video was pretty good. Maybe in the future, I'll try to only point out mistakes that lose more than a second (unless of course if it's a short game like Kung Fu where every frame counts). However, even though I may be critisizing the video here, I'll probably announce it at the GameFAQs Zelda message board and the ZHQ forum and tell them how great it is.
Posted: 4/19/2004 3:10 AM
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Sleepz
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Joined: 3/11/2004
Posts: 336
Its no problem. I know you just want the video to be perfect and all. Anyways, here are the times for the last few levels: L6 = 1:54, 4 seconds slower L7 = 2:21, 4 seconds slower For L6, about 3 seconds was lost in the Vire room because the enemies were just too spread out, but because of having a weaker sword, it is expected to be a little slower. For L7, took about 2-3 seconds getting extra bombs from Dodongo, but the level is still slower. I know I said I would have it done by last night, but L6 and L7 need to be redone. With the current times, I arrive at Ganon's level at 22:20, which is a little longer than I expected. I already know my time will be a little slower for L9. Michael took 3:58 for L9, so that gives me an allowence of 42 seconds to get a sub-27. Looks like a sub-26 isnt likely, but a sub-26:30 is probably what its going to be. I'm going back to see where the time went.
Posted: 4/19/2004 3:32 AM
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Michael_Fried
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Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 1107
I'm going back to see where the time went. 4 seconds slower in level 6 isn't bad at all, especially since you have to kill an extra 3 vires 2 rooms before the boss, and don't forget that I also had the magical sword. However, redoing part of a level sometimes changes enemy placement in later rooms, which might help in the vire room, so that might not be a bad idea. Edit: I know, it must have been the bat room in level 6 that wasted all that time. Now you have to throw away your past few days of work and redo levels 1, 8, and 2, so you can pick up the boomerang (which is good for killing bats) in level 1, and have a very small probably of saving a miniscule amount of time that no one will notice anyway. Not only that, by I actually found a way to save a hundredth of a frame somewhere in the first few seconds of the video, which means you have to do the whole thing over! Sorry, I couldn't resist that, don't take this paragraph seriously.
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