Ok, I'm in level 3. Got through the compass room 1 second faster than Michael by getting the bat to push me. Now in the red darknut room.
Question, do I quickly grab the key in the room above that? You counted all the keys and said that its faster to detor for keys in some of the early levels rather than the later levels.
Btw, I pulled a Bomberman and cleared the red darknut room with just 3 bombs, no sword, and in about half the time it took Michael using the white sword. Also, the darknut dropped some bombs I can use for the walls. Bombs=Fast
Ok, I'm in level 3. Got through the compass room 1 second faster than Michael by getting the bat to push me.
Doesn't that mean you'll have to wait for the heart to fill up when you get the triforce? You should time it to see if the time lost is more or less than the time gained.
Edit: By the way, I haven't timed it, but I think it saves time if you do Up+A after getting the raft (I hope you remembered to check off both controllers).
Doesn't that mean you'll have to wait for the heart to fill up when you get the triforce? You should time it to see if the time lost is more or less than the time gained.
Doesn't that mean you'll have to wait for the heart to fill up when you get the triforce? You should time it to see if the time lost is more or less than the time gained.
No, because one of the darknuts also drops a heart.
Michael Fried wrote:
Edit: By the way, I haven't timed it, but I think it saves time if you do Up+A after getting the raft (I hope you remembered to check off both controllers).
Yea, both controllers are recording and so is up+A, and youre right, it is faster to Up+A for the raft.
Michael Fried wrote:
How about starting out with 3415 instead of 34125, and that way the white sword is only 2 screens out of the way instead of 4.
Maybe, but wouldnt that lose the shorter distance of taking 2 then 5? If you take 5 first, then its gonna be a long walk to 2 no matter what you do, so it will end up being more than 2 screens detour. Also, according to Ramzi, getting white sword for 5 might not even be worth it?
Also, I managed to clear the darknut room with only 2 bombs, and in quarter the time. I think that using more bombs could potentially save a whole minute or more off the run. Thats a major time saver right there.
Yes, what I described would be hard.. NP-hard, actually, but because the dataset is small you can still find an optimal solution.
I was going to measure distances in screens. If ever actually coded, it would show the shortest route through the game (and the same program could be used for 2nd quest, too). But yeah, it seems to be a lot of work for a game that you're pretty close to getting "good enough" anyway.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
I just thought a little about whether or not each sword should be gotten.
The white sword is 4 screens out of the way and takes about 11 seconds to get, so that's about a 31 second detour, and it would be used for 5 levels. Having the white sword instead of the first sword would save about 5 seconds for of the 4 darknut rooms, so that's 20 seconds saved, and then add in all the fighting rooms in level 9, and I think it's safe to say that's more than 30 seconds saved.
The magical sword is 2 screens out of the way, and would require getting 3 overworld heart containers (assuming you want the magical sword for level 8). This is about a 51 second detour, and it would be used for 3 levels, 6, 8, and 9. In level 6, not including the bat room or the boss room, there are 3 rooms where you must fight. In level 8 there are 3 rooms where you must fight. In level 9, there are 8 rooms where you must fight. That's a total of 14 rooms where you must fight. I'll assume that having the magical sword instead of the white sword would save an average of 3 seconds in each room (even though it's actually probably less than 3 seconds, I'm making it 3 to be safe). 14x3=42. Now add on a few more seconds for the blue darknuts and a few more for the bosses and it obviously doesn't reach 51.
My conclusion is that you should get the white sword and not the magical sword in a perfect speed run.
Also, I managed to clear the darknut room with only 2 bombs, and in quarter the time. I think that using more bombs could potentially save a whole minute or more off the run. Thats a major time saver right there.
Are you using the sword also? Using a combination of bombs and the sword is even faster (or maybe with the first sword it's not, I'm not sure).
Maybe, but wouldnt that lose the shorter distance of taking 2 then 5? If you take 5 first, then its gonna be a long walk to 2 no matter what you do, so it will end up being more than 2 screens detour. Also, according to Ramzi, getting white sword for 5 might not even be worth it?
Looks can be deceiving, if you count the screens, you'll be in for a surprize.
[1 to 5 (including the white sword)] + [start to 2] < [1 to 2] + [2 to 5 (including the white sword)]
Edit: I think using all this logic I can start writing up the route. Another possibility is to get the 100 rupees on the way to level 8 that's 2 screens out of the way, but I think this would take slightly longer than playing the gambling game an extra 2 times. Keep in mind that with this route you would need to get at least 40 rupees from enemies, but if you don't think you can do this without wasting more than 8 seconds, then just play the gambling game 1 more time.
Level 3, raft
Up+A
Gambling game 4 times
Blue candle
Level 4, ladder
Bait (you can also get this just before level 2)
Level 1, bow
White sword
Level 5, whistle
Up+A
Arrows
Level 8
Level 2
Whistle to 3
Level 7
Level 6
Whistle to 1
Level 9, silver arrows
Edit 2:
it is faster to Up+A for the raft.
Another thing I forgot to mention is make sure you press pause as soon as possible. Sometimes it's possible to press pause 1 frame before it looks like you have the raft, and you'll still have it. Another thing (that probably doesn't make a difference but I'll tell you anyway) is that you don't have wait for the subscreen to finish coming up before you press Up+A. You can actually start holding them down even before you pause. This will ensure that you pressed it as soon as possible. You can also do this for switching items (hold down left or right before the subscreen finishes coming up) but it doesn't always work for some reason.
Are you using the sword also? Using a combination of bombs and the sword is even faster (or maybe with the first sword it's not, I'm not sure).
I dont need to use the sword for the whole level, just once to move the blob aside. Bombs can kill red darknuts in one hit.
Michael Fried wrote:
Looks can be deceiving, if you count the screens, you'll be in for a surprize.
[1 to 5 (including the white sword)] + [start to 2] < [1 to 2] + [2 to 5 (including the white sword)
If thats true, then thats the path Ill use if I get the white sword.
Ramzi, I need to know if I have to get that key in the room above. I cant go forward until I know for sure.
if I get the white sword.
Of course your getting the white sword. It's obviously better than going through the whole game with the wooden sword, and it's also better to get the white sword and not the magical sword than the magical sword and not the white sword. The white sword would be use for twice as many levels, and the magical sword definitely does not save more than twice as much time per level. Also keep in mind that for the magical sword you would need a few overworld heart containers, and each one wastes 10 seconds.
Ramzi, I need to know if I have to get that key in the room above. I cant go forward until I know for sure.
I would say probably not. Going up a screen and down a screen would probably waste about 7 seconds, and fighting a room full of blue darknuts with the white sword doesn't even waste that long.
Edit: I forgot to mention this before (though it's kind of obvious), but not only is 3415 shorter than 34125, but you would also have the white sword for level 2 (but level 2 is so short and easy that it probably doesn't make a difference).
Ok, I just did lvl5 with wooden sword and bombs, and I believe it would be faster to detour get the white sword first. The blue darknut rooms, the mummies and the boss take way too long with wooden sword even with using bombs at the same time.
34152 is looking really good right now.
It's shorter if you do 8 before 2. By the way, it doesn't matter how much time the white sword saves in level 5 (unless you found a better route that involves going from 2 to 5) because 341582769 is the shortest route so far. Check my (edited) post a few posts ago for all the details of this route.
Sleepz, about the key, go with Michael on this one. It's 2:21 AM right now, and I can't check if it'll save time. A screenchange, though, is a long time, and I don't remember any other key room that is worth that much time. The only time I can think of to get an off-path key is in Level 1, by going right and getting it from a skeleton, because the room below the boss in Level 8 is obviously way longer.
Obviously the white sword is too big of a detour for level 5 alone, but level 5, and all the levels that follow it, the white sword makes up for.
Michael, great contributions. I didn't check this thread in a few hours, and so much was discussed. Call me crazy but a sub-27 seems possible. Am I alone on this?
Michael Fried wrote:
The white sword is 4 screens out of the way and takes about 11 seconds to get, so that's about a 31 second detour, and it would be used for 5 levels. Having the white sword instead of the first sword would save about 5 seconds for of the 4 darknut rooms, so that's 20 seconds saved, and then add in all the fighting rooms in level 9, and I think it's safe to say that's more than 30 seconds saved.
...
My conclusion is that you should get the white sword and not the magical sword in a perfect speed run.
Seems to make a lot of sense. And I am *this* close to agreeing with you. Those times are looking kind of close, though. Considering how quickly he's doing the darknut rooms because of bombs, not the sword, is it fair to say that it's 5 seconds in each room? Level 9 may win me over, but I'd really love to see some kind of numbers for how long it'll take to kill the Patras, and Ganon, etc. Say the times break even, or even that it is faster with the white sword... If you don't get any overworld heart pieces, that'll save time also. What's it, 10 seconds load? Also, you don't have to walk back to get the heart piece after beating the boss. And what about my other route? (I'm thinking of throwing it away merely because of having to wait for the guy's text.)
Sleepz, I know you're anxious. So am I. I'd really love for Michael to be correct, so we can hurry this along and see this sweet vid, but I don't want to rush it and do it incorrectly. Perhaps another day of thinking is all we need. Let's not forget how many times we've been confident, only to discover something new the next day.
>> [1 to 5 (including the white sword)] + [start to 2] < [1 to 2] + [2 to 5 (including the white sword)
BRILLIANT! (I'll verify tomorrow.)
With the new route the white sword is only about a 21 second detour, and is also used for 6 levels, so even with very good bomb use, I think it's safe to say the white sword saves more than 3.5 seconds per level. Also, since he's using lots of bombs, that makes it even less likely that the magical sword is worth getting. By the way, I'm not so sure about that key from the skeleton in level 1. It wastes more time than you might think. I don't know about sub-27, but now I think sub-28 is definitely possible even though my original estimate was 28-29 minutes. Anyway, soon we'll have to start planning which keys to get. I barely know anything about keys because in my speed run I got the magic key so I didn't have to worry about keys. By the way, Sleepz, what speed do you usually set Famtasia at when you make speed runs? Bisqwit said he plays at 40% or 30%, and I was wondering if I was the only person who plays at 15%. I just can't imagine making a very accurate speed run at 40% or 30%.
I think getting the key from level 3 will be faster than getting it from the skeleton in L1 since I'm already at the top of the screen when the bomb goes off. Ill have to check.
By the way, Sleepz, what speed do you usually set Famtasia at when you make speed runs? Bisqwit said he plays at 40% or 30%, and I was wondering if I was the only person who plays at 15%. I just can't imagine making a very accurate speed run at 40% or 30%.
Since Megaman 3, the speed that I have Famtasia set on is 15%, but for Title screens, Select screens or Sub-menus I use 10%.
Even for title screens 15% is slow enough for me to enter names as fast as possible. It's more important to use autofire because Famtasia only displays one of every 3 frames and it's impossible to enter names as fast as with autofire. By the way, I hope you didn't enter your name as Sleepz. That would be so not cool since the name "A" is a lot cooler (and faster).
Also, I managed to clear the darknut room with only 2 bombs, and in quarter the time. I think that using more bombs could potentially save a whole minute or more off the run. Thats a major time saver right there.
Shoot. Sorry, made a mistake there, probably due to staying up so long. I acutally wrote down Michaels time for the BLUE darknut room and was comparing to the red darknut room. The fact is my time using the 2 bombs was the same as Michael's time using the white sword. I still think using more bombs for fights will save considerable time though. Also, level 3 will still be done faster due to Up+A.
This is what I think of the times for the first few levels:
Level 3 - Will be faster due to Up+A.
Level 4 - Will be around 5-7 seconds slower because of using wooden sword for ladder room and Gleeok.
Level 1 - Will be faster because of more bomb use and Up+A. (Using Up+A after Bow means that you dont need to open 1 locked door, you can use a bomb in the compass room instead. This means that you dont need to detour and get the key from the skeleton in the side room)
Level 5 - Will be faster because of more bomb use and Up+A.
Even for title screens 15% is slow enough for me to enter names as fast as possible. It's more important to use autofire because Famtasia only displays one of every 3 frames and it's impossible to enter names as fast as with autofire. By the way, I hope you didn't enter your name as Sleepz. That would be so not cool since the name "A" is a lot cooler (and faster).
My Starting screen is as fast as yours. I used "A".
I just thought of a new route that might be slightly faster than the last one I came up with. This one also does not get the magical sword. After level 5, it probably doesn't matter too much what order the next 3 groups (7, 6, and 2+8) are done in. I chose to do level 7 first because you already have the whistle out so you might as well use it right away instead of waiting until later when you'll have to switch items.
Level 3, raft
Up+A
Gambling game 4 times (or 5 times, depending on whether you can get enough rupees from enemies)
Blue Candle
Level 4, ladder
Bait (if you do 7 after 2+8, you can also get this just before level 2)
Level 1, bow
Arrows
Power Bracelet
Up+A
Right 2 screens and warp to near level 5
White sword (it might be faster to get this after level 5)
Level 5
Whistle to level 3
Level 7
Up+A
Right 2 screens and warp to near level 5
Level 2
Level 8
Up+A
Right 2 screens and warp to near level 6
Level 6
Whistle to level 1
Level 9, silver arrows
It seems a new route is coming up every day, which is good. That looks like an interesting route. This is what I think we should do. We should decide on the 3 best possible routes, then Ill just do an overworld run through and record the times for each route. Then after that, we can factor in everything else to decide on the best route. I dont think we should rely on how many screens a route takes, since you walk a different amout in each screen. Its best to rely on actual run time.
1 to 5 is only faster than 1 to 2 if you get the arrows.
Maybe I'm missing something totally obvious, but...
Level 5, whistle
Up+A
Arrows
Level 8
Where do you get the arrows? By the shop next to the fairy? That's a two screen detour.
Just pitching ideas. How about 341658279?
Here are the pros and cons of that.
Pros:
-The arrows are on path. That saves two screens from your route.
-The walk from 6 to 5 is shorter than the walk from 1 to 5 by two screens.
-You do not have to pick up any overworld hearts for the white sword.
Cons:
-You have to do level 6 with the wooden sword.
-You have to wait for the guy's text to load.
-You have to make a 1 screen detour to get the white sword before level 5.
It's kinda close. I'd say that the time it takes getting the overworld heart, and the time it takes to warp are about the same, since you have to wait for text to load. So going to level 6 is about 3 screens shorter, but you have to do it with the first sword. The question is which is greater, the time saved by not walking those 3 screens, or the time lost by not doing level 6 with the white sword. I think the 3 screens is a greater time saver.
I haven't thought out the money too well, though.
*****I was looking at the thread for info and I see that you just updated with a new route. It's similar, but different than this one nonetheless.
Maybe I'm missing something totally obvious, but...
Level 5, whistle
Up+A
Arrows
Level 8
Where do you get the arrows? By the shop next to the fairy? That's a two screen detour.
I think its the arrow shop along the east coast, which is beside 8.
That would be an even longer detour than going up by the fairy.
It's no matter, now, anyway, since Michael and I just posted two new faster routes that get the arrows by level 6.
