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Editor, Expert player (2328)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3930
Location: Germany
Ok I did intense 4.5 hours of testing. - Normal mode TAS still has the best execution in world 1. There is no way around having to delay for ~10 frames due to the bad luck. - Hard mode TAS: I tested a window of up to 20 delay frames. The best outcomes:
mode13 at '524 - 2DF (lag:109) -->flower
               = 522

mode13 at '530 - 6DF (lag:108) -->flower
               = 524

mode13 at '530 - 7DF (lag:108) -->flower
               = 523

mode13 at '530 - 8DF (lag:108) -->flower
               = 522

mode13 at '530 - 9DF (lag:108) -->flower
               = 521 !!!

mode13 at '542 - 19DF (lag:108) -->flower
               = 523

mode13 at '542 - 20DF (lag:108) -->flower
               = 522
518 is possible but the best I reached was 521. I can now test further or go on with the 521. VBM of 521 scenario: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1156741651/9DF%20%282DF%20in%201-3%2C%20bonus%20at%20xxx30%29.vbm - Lagcount after 1-2 should be 102 - Lagcount after 1-3 should be 108 - Reach end in 1-1 and 1-2 asap. In 1-3, you have 2 delay frames to spare.
Editor, Expert player (2328)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3930
Location: Germany
Ok this post is going to be a mess but here goes. I found that the difference between FF04 and FF05 (the two RNG addresses) changes sometimes. At first I assumed it only does at the title screen but now it can change in subsequent levels if you insert delay frames. What this means: - The 5 hours of testing I did a while back is kind of meaningless since not all possibilities were tested. It isn't so bad though, since Hard mode can start whenever you want. With normal mode it's a different story, since you have to start out with the RNG you get at the beginning. Anyway: - Just by testing for 10 mins, I saved 7 frames in normal mode by merely inserting delay frames after the scoring process of 1-3. Not before and not during, just after it. Normal mode is improvable. - At first sight, there seem to be... (amount of delay frames you want to test) ^ 13 possibilities ...as to how you can insert delay frames and that need testing in world 1. Explanation: If you were to insert delay frames by pausing and unpausing the game, you could do it anytime before the world 1 bonus game. But I found that it matters exactly when you do it. You have to check the difference between the two RNG addresses - It's fixed normally but it changes on the title screen and when you insert delay frames, which causes luck to be different*. Right now I'm considering 13 different places where you could insert delay frames, and each combination between those need to be tested. (* Example: If you go as fast as possible and the difference in the next level is 80 but the bonus game luck is bad, you can try inserting 1 delay frame in the level and check if the next level's RNG difference changes. If it's still 80, try inserting the delay frame after finishing the level / during the scoring / after the scoring / try inserting more delay frames. You want to test the scenarios that have different differences.) The 13 places are:
  • Title screen
  • In 1-1
  • After 1-1
  • During 1-1's time scoring
  • After 1-1's time scoring
  • In 1-2
  • After 1-2
  • During 1-2's time scoring
  • After 1-2's time scoring
  • In 1-3
  • After 1-3
  • During 1-3's time scoring
  • After 1-3's time scoring
The current normal mode TAS: I didn't check but to sum it up, it has 1 delay frame in title screen, no delay frames in 1-1 and 1-2 and quite a few delay frames during 1-3. The improvement I found:
  • Title screen = 1 DELAY FRAME
  • In 1-1 = 0 DELAY FRAMES
  • After 1-1 = 0 DELAY FRAMES
  • During 1-1's time scoring = 0 DELAY FRAMES
  • After 1-1's time scoring = 0 DELAY FRAMES
  • In 1-2 = 0 DELAY FRAMES
  • After 1-2 = 0 DELAY FRAMES
  • During 1-2's time scoring = 0 DELAY FRAMES
  • After 1-2's time scoring = 0 DELAY FRAMES
  • In 1-3 = 1 DELAY FRAMES (by slowing down. I don't know to how much delay it actually amounts, i.e. taking pixel positioning and timers into account)
  • After 1-3 = 0 DELAY FRAMES
  • During 1-3's time scoring = 0 DELAY FRAMES
  • After 1-3's time scoring = 3 DELAY FRAMES (by pausing and unpausing)
You could possibly improve this further by doing what I suggested: Try to insert different amounts of delay frames elsewhere. Test all combinations. I think it would make sense to only test the same amount of delay frames that we already used, or less (5 or less). That means... 13 ^ 5 possibilities ... need testing, which is 371293 possibilities. I don't know how to bot this. We didn't even figure out how exactly RNG works and why the RNG difference changes sometimes but not at other times. It's possible that we can narrow down the places that matter, i.e. maybe it doesn't matter if you insert a delay frame "in a level" or "after the level but before the scoring". Also, if we find a scenario with less than 5 delay frames, the calculation changes as there are now only 13 ^ 4 possibilities we need to test, etc. We will no longer look into combinations that use more than 4 delay frames. Then we might find one where it takes only 3 delay frames. So even though the huge number of possibilities above might be discouraging, I think we might find the best scenario soon even without botting. EDIT: I'm going to test with 1, then 2, then 3 etc. delay frames. Feel free to check here to see my progress (although it may take me a few days before I feel like testing it). https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z7oI6oL9X-bIF0IPLcVdGEByk7U_ER2zwe6gxgz2XFI/pubhtml?gid=0&single=true
Editor, Expert player (2328)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3930
Location: Germany
I think there are only actually 4 places that really matter. Those 4 places have a stronger influence on the RNG, or maybe it's just that I already tested all combinations and testing those 4 places has given me new, never before seen results. I can't really tell. 4 places are: title screen, 1-1 after the time scoring finished, 1-2 after the time scoring finished, 1-3 after the time scoring finished. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1724853706/5df%20scenario.vbm http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1536722880/5df%20scenario%20-%20Kopie%20-%20Kopie.vbm I didn't check those VBMs but they should be correct. These two scenarios are equally fast and both save 7 frames over the published normal mode run. But I think they have different RNGs. And more different RNGs may be possible to achieve. So in order to optimize the next bonus room, one might have to go back and look for the best RNG to use.
Former player
Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1107
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
This stuff looks crazy (yes, I don't understand it at all ^^), but i'm so excited that normal mode will be improved! I did honestly not believe that it was possible to save more time. Good luck with this! While I'm in the SML thread, I had this idea for the game for a while now: A highscore TAS! The goal obviously is to get the best score, but without death abuse, so this would limit infinite scoring methods. The routing would be insane, but I think it would make for a great TAS!
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Skilled player (1737)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4979
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
andypanther wrote:
This stuff looks crazy (yes, I don't understand it at all ^^), but i'm so excited that normal mode will be improved! I did honestly not believe that it was possible to save more time. Good luck with this! While I'm in the SML thread, I had this idea for the game for a while now: A highscore TAS! The goal obviously is to get the best score, but without death abuse, so this would limit infinite scoring methods. The routing would be insane, but I think it would make for a great TAS!
Makes me wonder is it truly faster to die over and over or beat the game over and over for highscore. :P
Editor, Expert player (2328)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3930
Location: Germany
xNight wrote:
I don't know what i did but i was on 2-2 and i died in a area and it warped me to end of the level the the area where you go threw the door i don't know how it happened so I'm just gonna put it out there
source EDIT: It would appear that this game doesn't have an address for which checkpoint has been passed, at least I can't find it. So maybe it goes by something else (distance traveled through the level?) According to Frank Maggiore's RAM information, the checkpoints in each level are at "00, 28, 50, 78, A0, and C8". Although I don't know how to use these values yet, since I have not searched for a x-location address yet. FFE5 looks checkpoint related. (the screen I'm currently on. Imagine a level like a bunch of screens horizontally stacked together) It is more or less confirmed that the game goes by distance traveled rather than "you have passed this x location so now your checkpoint is ID xyz". If I go through a checkpoint and edit FFE5 lower again, I start at the checkpoint before that. So maybe the game was confused about FFE5 when the bug happened. I will try a few tests. FFE6 increments every few pixels. When it reaches 14(hex) it resets to zero and FFE5 increments by 1. The first checkpoint in 1-1 would thus be at a hex A0. ---- The only way I can see this bug work is if FFE5 can become 10 (hex) (the x position required in 2-2 to respawn near the end) in some way. Otherwise maybe it's some bug related to banks / cpu / stuff I don't understand well. Maybe FFE5 didn't get reset when 2-2 was started, as ais523 suggests. ---- When 2-2 starts for me, FFE5 and FFE6 read: 03 00 03 08 04 02 04 07 (this is the first frame you can pause on in the new level) 04 08 My question would be why it is 03 00 and then 04 02. Weird stuff gets written to those two addresses.
Editor, Expert player (2328)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3930
Location: Germany
It's been a good week and the finder still didn't provide any useful information. There is not really a way to investigate a bug with such little information, so I'm not going to look into it further. It may as well be a fake report (because there are fakers - remember the Earthbound Onett clip fake?). It's unfortunate because I was kind of looking forward to breaking SML1.
Former player
Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1107
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Couldn't it just be a crooked cartridge glitch? I had crazy things happen on my old cart. I will never forget how the game started in a glitched version of 1-1, that had the layout of 3-1, but some sprites of the first world. I wish I had a video of this.
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Editor, Expert player (2328)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3930
Location: Germany
The finder responded now saying where in the level he died. http://i.imgur.com/mt6S1oj.png He said he played on 1.1.
Editor, Expert player (2328)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3930
Location: Germany
Another person I have to drag information out of..... https://twitter.com/arkan565/status/647747441731764224 Maybe I should make a guide on how to provide as much info as possible when a never-before seen bug happens to you.
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1029
Someone's written one already: this guide is pretty famous (although not really specific to computer games).
Editor, Expert player (2328)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3930
Location: Germany
The player has put a video, see here. Also, I have made a page to gather information on those two recent glitches.
Post subject: Super Mario Land
Joined: 5/1/2015
Posts: 96
Location: Florida
Who would feel good about a walkathon TAS of this game? I have a near perfect TAS up to 3-1.
If a map had all the information, it would look like this: (shows black construction paper) "Now that's a map!' XD
Editor, Expert player (2328)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3930
Location: Germany
I have done such a run, see here http://tasvideos.org/2624S.html but it isn't optimized by any means. It was more a "last minute" effort at submitting something for April Fools. Please use the existing topic next time. When you look at the forum topics list, it was right at the top - how did you miss it?
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2108)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2821
Location: Northern California
KnucklesMaster368 wrote:
Who would feel good about a walkathon TAS of this game?
Samsara wrote:
I doubt it would be accepted. Walkathon in SMB1 is a novel goal, but anywhere else it just doesn't make any sense.
It's been said in the past that walkathons for other games would not be accepted since the category was a joke in the first place.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Post subject: Re: Super Mario Land
Editor, Expert player (2089)
Joined: 8/25/2013
Posts: 1200
KnucklesMaster368 wrote:
Who would feel good about a walkathon TAS of this game?
SMB3 wouldn't be a very good walkathon candidate.
effort on the first draft means less effort on any draft thereafter - some loser
Joined: 5/1/2015
Posts: 96
Location: Florida
MUGG wrote:
I have done such a run, see here http://tasvideos.org/2624S.html but it isn't optimized by any means. It was more a "last minute" effort at submitting something for April Fools. Please use the existing topic next time. When you look at the forum topics list, it was right at the top - how did you miss it?
I didn't see it there! And... I'll find something to TAS.
If a map had all the information, it would look like this: (shows black construction paper) "Now that's a map!' XD
MarbleousDave
He/Him
Player (13)
Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1559
I am experimenting a high score TAS. Getting as many power-ups and coins as possible. 999,999 points is the highest possible. I am using a color hack that plays the game in color. We could TAS a level hack of this game. Not graphics hacks like Super Pika Land as TASes made using version 1.1 can sync with them.
MarbleousDave
He/Him
Player (13)
Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1559
The color hack made 3-1 slightly easier by removing some spikes so you can avoid taking damage. I encountered a glitch in the color hack preventing me from finishing 2-3. Thankfully pausing and un-pausing fixes this. A max score TAS reminds me of the all coins TAS on Super Mario Bros. A previous version of the color hack was buggy rendering the game unwinnable.
MarbleousDave
He/Him
Player (13)
Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1559
I also have to point out that the color hack reduces lag by having it not affect gameplay and that it takes only one frame to transition between level and bonus room. I say that the original and the color hack are incompatible with each other when it comes to movie playback.
MarbleousDave
He/Him
Player (13)
Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1559
[URL=http://s145.photobucket.com/user/Pika3000_photos/media/SSMLE2.gif.html][/URL][URL=http://s145.photobucket.com/user/Pika3000_photos/media/SSMLE1.gif.html][/URL] I am TASing a hack called Super Super Mario Land and I think I'm stuck. When I thought I was in the clear, I get hit by the tail end of the seahorse. And I thought I could try the platform above only to be guarded by a Goomba. I reached a checkpoint and I could respawn there, but it'll waste frames. I should redo the bonus stage and get a superball flower. It'll take away some frames, but allows for time saving damage.
MarbleousDave
He/Him
Player (13)
Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1559
I did what I had to do, but I still get killed! The mercy invincibility didn't last long enough. Remember when Pabrtrky said it took 0.3 seconds for it to change a thing? Well it did. Like what the "Game Dude" said: Fuck seahorses! A GameShark can be handy, but I could get banned if I do so.
MarbleousDave
He/Him
Player (13)
Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1559
If only there was a P-Switch... I mean Super Mario Bros. 3 came out Japan the year before this game came out. There's no excuse. Also, Gunpei Yokoi thought that warp zones are for losers.
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2108)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2821
Location: Northern California
Just so we're clear: You've tried other paths through this level, correct? Jumping on different platforms, landing earlier and jumping earlier, etc?
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Pokota
He/Him
Joined: 2/5/2014
Posts: 779
Pika: Put what you have in userfiles maybe? It's hard to tell what can be changed just from a gif.
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?
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