It's... okay. I guess.
Well, no, I take it back. This is of the same standard as the first few Sonic 2 submissions, which is to say it's dowright awful compared to what you could/should be doing.
Sonic is not for the lazy.
Planning the special stages is a lot of work, because not only do you need the shortest path, but also the least number of turns. I noticed you didn't care about the second factor at times. You should also looking into jumping trough the clusters of red balls for shortcuts.
The play wasn't of very high quality. That could be ok if you're doing it for your own entertainment. There's probably no chance it will be accepted as a submission.
Joined: 2/15/2005
Posts: 246
Location: Torquay, England
nifboy wrote:
This is of the same standard as the first few Sonic 2 submissions, which is to say it's dowright awful compared to what you could/should be doing.
I was expecting you to say that. I can see that in a perfect world this movie should be exactly the same as the existing 50 minute speedrun, with sidetracks for the special stages and speeding up CNZ and later with Super Sonic. But although I do care about the speed, the purpose of a game is to have fun.
Truncated wrote:
Planning the special stages is a lot of work, because not only do you need the shortest path, but also the least number of turns. I noticed you didn't care about the second factor at times. You should also looking into jumping trough the clusters of red balls for shortcuts.
I did care most of the time about the number of turns. The way the rings work puzzles me, and I have to figure out whether collecting a group of blue spheres is better done clockwise or anticlockwise depending on the situation. In the second stage, I tried going for the 5x5 group (with the star in the middle) without the S-turn, but I ended up going the wrong way when I finished, which is why I did the S-turn. In the fourth stage I know I messed up there, because I had thought the group I had skipped for a "perfect" was the last one when it wasn't. I will most likely repeat that part before carrying on, as you can't rerecord without deleting what's after it (except if you hex, which usually causes desyncs).
The play wasn't of very high quality. That could be ok if you're doing it for your own entertainment. There's probably no chance it will be accepted as a submission.
As mentioned in the first part of this post, I am not expecting it to be accepted, but I felt I might as well let people know of my attempts. I am indeed mainly doing this for entertainment and not "beating a record". And as for the entertainment point, I personally find it amusing when Sonic stares up at a boss, or otherwise makes them look stupid (see Sandopolis 1 boss in the 50 minute speedrun ;) ).
The speed settings you use are not that great either. I did my first Mystic Defender run using 20% speed the first levels, then I used 6% to the end. In the second version I released I used frame-by-frame movement only. This allowed me to shave off 24 seconds! That was very enjoyable for me, and I don't think people who watched it disliked it either.
I haven't watched your run yet. I don't think I will have time enought to do it either. But I think you should wait to complete an entire game and release it if you already know that you can do alot better. However it's very good to post your result in order to get creative criticism so that you can improve your run and have it even more entertaining.
I think that people do watch the submission either because of awesome glitches or for very high speed playing ALONG with entertaining looking silly/funny/dumb/crazy stuff while it doesn't slows you down. Atleast thats what I'm after mostly.
Do what you can in order to complete the game as fast as possible, while still maintaining those stupid/funny/silly looking stuff that makes people smile for a while.
Also.. I think you should get super sonic. Otherwise it would be wasted time to go after all the emeralds.
Thats my point of view. Hope it helps some. I would gladly watch your complete run when it goes final. :)
Joined: 2/15/2005
Posts: 246
Location: Torquay, England
Highness wrote:
The speed settings you use are not that great either. I did my first Mystic Defender run using 20% speed the first levels, then I used 6% to the end. In the second version I released I used frame-by-frame movement only. This allowed me to shave off 24 seconds! That was very enjoyable for me, and I don't think people who watched it disliked it either.
Well, you may enjoy using frame advance, but I don't. Unless I have to get something EXACTLY right, I hardly ever use FA, and when I do it bores me.
I think that people do watch the submission either because of awesome glitches or for very high speed playing ALONG with entertaining looking silly/funny/dumb/crazy stuff while it doesn't slows you down. Atleast thats what I'm after mostly.
Yeah, I like watching movies for their entertaining side rather than "omg this proves that suchandsuch a time is possible!". I was rather puzzled by the shortcut used in the start of HCZ2 in the speedrun though: when I tried it, I didn't fall through the floor at all.
Do what you can in order to complete the game as fast as possible, while still maintaining those stupid/funny/silly looking stuff that makes people smile for a while.
That's what I'm trying to do. Looking up at the bosses is a good un-timewasting way to do this... and to the author of the Sonic 2 speedrun, pressing Up 30 times a second is NOT.
Also.. I think you should get super sonic. Otherwise it would be wasted time to go after all the emeralds.
Erm... When you get all the emeralds you do get SS... what's your point? I'm going to use SS after getting all the emeralds, to beat the remaining levels more quickly.
The speed settings you use are not that great either. I did my first Mystic Defender run using 20% speed the first levels, then I used 6% to the end. In the second version I released I used frame-by-frame movement only. This allowed me to shave off 24 seconds! That was very enjoyable for me, and I don't think people who watched it disliked it either.
Well, you may enjoy using frame advance, but I don't. Unless I have to get something EXACTLY right, I hardly ever use FA, and when I do it bores me.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of these movies to get *everything* exactly right?
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Yes, that's the idea of these movies.
But you don't exactly need FA for things like running. ;)
Meh, I find that in games where you have to do alot of stuff quickly (ie all interesting games) it's more irritating to switch to and from paused than to just do everything in frame advance.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Joined: 2/15/2005
Posts: 246
Location: Torquay, England
Not really, I only have to press Escape.
EDIT:
Finished Hydrocity Zone. I used SonED to save some maps for me so I could find the two Giant Rings in HCZ2. I also got a map of the last special stage off of GameFAQs. Same link as in first post, and same deal: negative criticism accepted. I've also fixed the fourth special stage by the way.
Joined: 2/15/2005
Posts: 246
Location: Torquay, England
Sorry for the double post but nobody seems to have noticed my edit.
bobxp wrote:
Finished Hydrocity Zone. I used SonED to save some maps for me so I could find the two Giant Rings in HCZ2. I also got a map of the last special stage off of GameFAQs. Same link as in first post, and same deal: negative criticism accepted. I've also fixed the fourth special stage by the way.
Well, I decided to start over with 6% speed, and have greatly speeded up AIZ1. Unfortunately, my site is STILL not up >_< so I can't show you.
Why are you not going for the super emeralds? It seems kind of half-done with that in mind, since obviously you're going to be significantly slower than the existing run. Slower speeds are okay, for 100% completion runs, but you're clearly not aiming for 100% completion from the get-go.
Do what you can in order to complete the game as fast as possible, while still maintaining those stupid/funny/silly looking stuff that makes people smile for a while.
That's what I'm trying to do. Looking up at the bosses is a good un-timewasting way to do this... and to the author of the Sonic 2 speedrun, pressing Up 30 times a second is NOT.
When you've got some high quality timeattack material to present, then you can start criticizing what other people do in their runs. Until then, keep your little 'observations' to yourself.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
Joined: 2/15/2005
Posts: 246
Location: Torquay, England
Quietust wrote:
When you've got some high quality timeattack material to present, then you can start criticizing what other people do in their runs. Until then, keep your little 'observations' to yourself.
That was just my opinion on what is entertaining and what is showing off. No offense was intended.
Joined: 5/20/2004
Posts: 118
Location: Over there!
Still too slow. 1 rerecord per 2.5 seconds isn't enough for almost any game, never mind something as awkward as Sonic.
The Sonic series has a physics engine that is significantly more complex than most other games of its time. An obscene amount of planning and experimentation is absolutely necessary for a decent result, and it is apparent that you have done nowhere near enough of either.
Also, perfects are useless. The special stages are long and boring enough already without wasting time on such an easy, tedious, and entirely unimpressive task.
Joined: 2/15/2005
Posts: 246
Location: Torquay, England
SprintGod wrote:
Still too slow. 1 rerecord per 2.5 seconds isn't enough for almost any game, never mind something as awkward as Sonic.
I DID read the FAQ before I started. Rerecord count doesn't say how many times per second a savestate was loaded. It says how many times you pressed F8 in the whole run.
The Sonic series has a physics engine that is significantly more complex than most other games of its time. An obscene amount of planning and experimentation is absolutely necessary for a decent result, and it is apparent that you have done nowhere near enough of either.
You are correct, but please bear in mind that as I am trying something new (ie. special stages) I cannot "copy" all of the record run - different routes must be taken (not very apparent in the first two zones which actually matter, but enough) and it distorts timed things.
Also, perfects are useless. The special stages are long and boring enough already without wasting time on such an easy, tedious, and entirely unimpressive task.
Again, in reference to the FAQ, it gave an example of an objective being "collect all items". This would be slower than just completing the game, right? Well, my objective is all perfects on special stages, not just to use Super Sonic in all the levels for speed's sake.
And please remember that while I do want it to be fast, I am not too bothered about things such as jumping one frame too late, etc.
Sabikage wrote:
Why are you not going for the super emeralds? It seems kind of half-done with that in mind, since obviously you're going to be significantly slower than the existing run. Slower speeds are okay, for 100% completion runs, but you're clearly not aiming for 100% completion from the get-go.
If I was to collect Super Emeralds, I would not be able to use Super Sonic in the S&K levels until I had finished collecting them.
Also, I want to point out one thing. Obviously a 50000-point bonus from a <1 minute completed level takes longer than a 10000-point bonus from a >=1 minute completed. So it would make sense to me to not finish levels on 0:59.
Still too slow. 1 rerecord per 2.5 seconds isn't enough for almost any game, never mind something as awkward as Sonic.
I DID read the FAQ before I started. Rerecord count doesn't say how many times per second a savestate was loaded. It says how many times you pressed F8 in the whole run.
Your run is 11 minutes long and used 252 rerecords (1 per 157 frames, or 2.6 seconds). By comparison, my Sonic 2 run is currently 15 minutes long and uses over 18,000 rerecords (1 per 3 frames, or 0.05 seconds), and Sprint's Sonic 3&K run was around 49:30 and used nearly 120,000 rerecords (1 per 1.5 frames, or 0.025 seconds). If you do the math, you should have at least 2,000-4,000 rerecords this far into the game (since the special stages require a lot less precision).
The Sonic series has a physics engine that is significantly more complex than most other games of its time. An obscene amount of planning and experimentation is absolutely necessary for a decent result, and it is apparent that you have done nowhere near enough of either.
You are correct, but please bear in mind that as I am trying something new (ie. special stages) I cannot "copy" all of the record run - different routes must be taken (not very apparent in the first two zones which actually matter, but enough) and it distorts timed things.
Speaking of your routes, is there any reason why you collected the flame shield at the end of Act 1? It's totally unnecessary for beating the boss (just insta-shield when you hit the flames to avoid taking damage), and you immediately replace it with the bubble shield after the boss dies, anyways.
And please remember that while I do want it to be fast, I am not too bothered about things such as jumping one frame too late, etc.
It's very apparent that you were not using frame advance, something that's practically required for a game like this. Skidding to a stop should be timed to the exact frame necessary (pull back until you start sliding backwards but BEFORE you turn around, then hit forward for 1 frame and back for 1 frame and you're stopped), and a full-power spindash should take exactly 9 frames to perform - 1 frame to crouch (which can often be done during the very last frame of slowing down), 6 frames to charge up (A, B, C, A, B, C), and 1 frame to let go of the controls (plus another frame if you want to jump immediately). During playback, these spindashes should sound like a single continuous high-pitched buzzing sound.
Jumping one frame late isn't that bad, since most people won't notice it unless they watch the movie in frame advance AND are intimately familiar with the game, but consistently wasting 5-10 frames on common moves (like spindashes) is inexcusable and will add up to minutes of wasted time over the course of the entire run.
Also, perfects are useless. The special stages are long and boring enough already without wasting time on such an easy, tedious, and entirely unimpressive task.
Again, in reference to the FAQ, it gave an example of an objective being "collect all items". This would be slower than just completing the game, right? Well, my objective is all perfects on special stages, not just to use Super Sonic in all the levels for speed's sake.
Also, I want to point out one thing. Obviously a 50000-point bonus from a <1 minute completed level takes longer than a 10000-point bonus from a >=1 minute completed. So it would make sense to me to not finish levels on 0:59.
You're being very inconsistent here - if you're concerned about the end of level time bonuses (50K points for <1 minute, 10K points for >= 1 minute), then why on earth are you getting PERFECTs in the special stages, something which does nothing but waste time (extra delays from running around to pick up rings, and an extra 50K point bonus at the end)?
* Quietust, QMT Productions
P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another
Joined: 2/15/2005
Posts: 246
Location: Torquay, England
Quietust wrote:
bobxp wrote:
SprintGod wrote:
Still too slow. 1 rerecord per 2.5 seconds isn't enough for almost any game, never mind something as awkward as Sonic.
I DID read the FAQ before I started. Rerecord count doesn't say how many times per second a savestate was loaded. It says how many times you pressed F8 in the whole run.
Your run is 11 minutes long and used 252 rerecords (1 per 157 frames, or 2.6 seconds). By comparison, my Sonic 2 run is currently 15 minutes long and uses over 18,000 rerecords (1 per 3 frames, or 0.05 seconds), and Sprint's Sonic 3&K run was around 49:30 and used nearly 120,000 rerecords (1 per 1.5 frames, or 0.025 seconds). If you do the math, you should have at least 2,000-4,000 rerecords this far into the game (since the special stages require a lot less precision).
The reason I do not use so many rerecords is mainly because (quote) I am not too bothered about things such as jumping one frame too late, etc.
The other reason is that I don't pay enough attention to the annoying bits.
The Sonic series has a physics engine that is significantly more complex than most other games of its time. An obscene amount of planning and experimentation is absolutely necessary for a decent result, and it is apparent that you have done nowhere near enough of either.
You are correct, but please bear in mind that as I am trying something new (ie. special stages) I cannot "copy" all of the record run - different routes must be taken (not very apparent in the first two zones which actually matter, but enough) and it distorts timed things.
Speaking of your routes, is there any reason why you collected the flame shield at the end of Act 1? It's totally unnecessary for beating the boss (just insta-shield when you hit the flames to avoid taking damage), and you immediately replace it with the bubble shield after the boss dies, anyways.
I tried insta-shielding at that point, and ended up bouncing off to the left, oddly enough. Logically, it's been done in the record run, so I should be able to do it if I keep trying. The same goes for the "impossible" jump at the start of HCZ1 (when you come out of the wall from the water current), which I had tried many times to do, and failed. I would appreciate it if Gavin Ward (SprintGod?) could explain this.
And please remember that while I do want it to be fast, I am not too bothered about things such as jumping one frame too late, etc.
It's very apparent that you were not using frame advance, something that's practically required for a game like this. Skidding to a stop should be timed to the exact frame necessary (pull back until you start sliding backwards but BEFORE you turn around, then hit forward for 1 frame and back for 1 frame and you're stopped), and a full-power spindash should take exactly 9 frames to perform - 1 frame to crouch (which can often be done during the very last frame of slowing down), 6 frames to charge up (A, B, C, A, B, C), and 1 frame to let go of the controls (plus another frame if you want to jump immediately). During playback, these spindashes should sound like a single continuous high-pitched buzzing sound.
I tried to time my spindashes to the frame counter. I am aware of the fact that they aren't as fast as possible, but I want to at least complete this version to sort out where to go in all the levels, before focusing on speed.
Also, perfects are useless. The special stages are long and boring enough already without wasting time on such an easy, tedious, and entirely unimpressive task.
Again, in reference to the FAQ, it gave an example of an objective being "collect all items". This would be slower than just completing the game, right? Well, my objective is all perfects on special stages, not just to use Super Sonic in all the levels for speed's sake.
Also, I want to point out one thing. Obviously a 50000-point bonus from a <1 minute completed level takes longer than a 10000-point bonus from a >=1 minute completed. So it would make sense to me to not finish levels on 0:59.
You're being very inconsistent here - if you're concerned about the end of level time bonuses (50K points for <1 minute, 10K points for >= 1 minute), then why on earth are you getting PERFECTs in the special stages, something which does nothing but waste time (extra delays from running around to pick up rings, and an extra 50K point bonus at the end)?
As I said, getting PERFECTs is my objective. Getting 50000-point time bonuses is not my objective.
By the way, I've done HCZ1: http://img78.exs.cx/img78/2597/s3kbobxp50gl.png (same deal as before with the link)
As I said above, I am focusing on getting the routes right before speed, and am perfectly aware of the mid-boss being slow. And as I said above, I cannot get the "impossible jump" to work, which explains my choice of route.
Joined: 5/20/2004
Posts: 118
Location: Over there!
With minimal practice, anyone with moderately active senses and at least one working finger can get 'Perfect' every single time on any Special Stage. In realtime. With no savestates.
In other words, your objective sucks.
Joined: 2/15/2005
Posts: 246
Location: Torquay, England
SprintGod wrote:
With minimal practice, anyone with moderately active senses and at least one working finger can get 'Perfect' every single time on any Special Stage. In realtime. With no savestates.
In other words, your objective sucks.
The only entertaining reason to do the special stages is to get the emeralds, and thereby get Super Sonic. The special stages themselves are pretty boring. Getting perfects keeps you in the special stages much longer than you really need to be there.
