Post subject: request: young merlin
Joined: 12/7/2004
Posts: 69
This game wasn't overly popular from what I remember, but I sure as hell couldn't get passed one part on the console. I'd love to see someone tackle this one.
Joined: 11/28/2004
Posts: 138
I started this a few months back, but I hit a desync and plus the game doesnt look all to great. Maybe i'll do it.
The best time you have is the time you share with other people.
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
Yeah, I don't think this would look all that great. He moves way too slowly with too much land to cover. Great game though, I beat it a long time ago when the only method of getting walkthroughs was by calling the Nintendo power chat for a dollar an hour or something.
Joined: 11/28/2004
Posts: 138
I tried to start a movie today, but i hit a desynch just after i started. This game will be boring to watch.
The best time you have is the time you share with other people.
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2156)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania
I played this game long ago and finished it after more than a month later. Its puzzles are too difficult for kids indeed. However its graphics are good enough for kids and it has some sweet tones. If Snes9X v1.51 now has got rid of the annoying desynch problem, I think a 100% items run would be accepted although it wouldn't look all that great....
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
Active player (356)
Joined: 1/16/2008
Posts: 358
Location: The Netherlands
I started looking into this game today, I'll post a test/WIP tonight... already found a nice glitch (which will be in it) note that if I complete this, it will be a all-items run (so bottles and hearts) edit: I know that this is both a very old thread and a 'request'.... nevertheless should this discussion remain in here or get a new thread? edit2: ok the test/wip wont come tonight... but it will soon
TASes: [URL=http://tasvideos.org/Movies-298up-Obs.html]Mr. Nutz (SNES), Young Merlin 100% (SNES), Animaniacs 100% (SNES)[/URL]
Former player
Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 330
Location: B.C Canada
If you have to use Snes9X 1.51, you'll find it to be a living hell. I tried to run Kirby's Dream Land 3, but due to transparency issues, I needed to use Snes9x 1.51 (might be due to the SA-1 chip used for the game that it didn't work on the other emulator. Not sure) v1.51 desynchs ALL THE TIME! If you do ANYTHING the slightest bit strange or load a wrong save state, it will automatically desynch. It also has trouble with rewind savestate when playing in read only, so you will have to get lucky and get a save state that will rewind, and fast forward to where you want to watch. It will usually say something like "Inconsistent save state" I don't know if all of this stuff happens on other games used on 1.51 though, so give it a shot. But replay your video a LOT! In Dream Land 3 I replayed every time I entered a new room, since that's where it usually desynched. If you look at my signature, you will see I only run games on Visualboy advance since I'm pretty safe from desynchs on it.
Active player (356)
Joined: 1/16/2008
Posts: 358
Location: The Netherlands
thnx for the warning but I did some testing and it turned out ok for the first 5K frames (using loads of savestates/rewinds/etc) btw my Mr Nutz run (on 1.51) only desynched about 4 times during the creation of the entire run :) only drawback with 1.51 is that i cannot directly use LUA stuff :(
TASes: [URL=http://tasvideos.org/Movies-298up-Obs.html]Mr. Nutz (SNES), Young Merlin 100% (SNES), Animaniacs 100% (SNES)[/URL]
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
Snes9x 1.51 shouldn't desync anymore with gocha's version. Search on the Snes9x subforum and you'll find it.
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2156)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania
I don't remember posting in this thread. It might be too long. But I am glad to know that someone is going to make a 100% items run, as well as the desync(or "desynch"?) problem has been solved. @DaTeL237: I remember posting a glitch demo in this game in another thread. It was caused by doing unexpected things during "Meanwhile" periods. It can be used in one of many aspects, like getting ultimate invulnerability(will be over as soon as you get on the track which is unavoidable), messing up graphics or music, cancelling events, skipping some items or just getting stuck somewhere. Too bad Westwood is no more so you won't receive their prize T-shirt by beating this game with all items collected.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
Active player (356)
Joined: 1/16/2008
Posts: 358
Location: The Netherlands
aha, it seems i found the same glitch then :) not sure if I've exploited it to the max (e.g. invulnerability?) also couldn't find a way to break the 2nd 'Meanwhile' see WIP here: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1164430940/YM_DaTeL237_WIP.smv edit: ok I watched your demo and it's a nice idea but...I'm not sure whether or not i should use the game-given password
TASes: [URL=http://tasvideos.org/Movies-298up-Obs.html]Mr. Nutz (SNES), Young Merlin 100% (SNES), Animaniacs 100% (SNES)[/URL]
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2156)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania
I watched your WIP and found some issues. 1) You should throw gems into the lake standing at the position the new item would be spawned so you could pick it up during the waiting time. See the example here (my old WIP, may desync the first time played). 2) You don't need to press Start to move after the Lady of the Lake appears. Just get hit by the Meanies but not killed and you'll be able to move. The way to break the second "Meanwhile" is simple. Just keep in mind that as long as the Lake Lady is on the map(pressing Start makes her disappear), you can press Start to get control on Merlin if he is not doing an event-only animation. You can then rush to get the wrench or get invulnerable (unfortunately I don't remember how) during the Meanwhile! In fact, it's possible to get past the Meanies blocking the way from the right to the left without taking damage after you get the crystal box. Very difficult, but I managed to do it once. However it doesn't seem useful because getting hit is more useful anyway. Discussing this makes me having the idea to TAS this game again, but....
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
Active player (356)
Joined: 1/16/2008
Posts: 358
Location: The Netherlands
klmz wrote:
(...)
aha thnx for the advice, I'll go back and fix the gem-throwing procedure as for the 'get hit to break lake-lady-animation', that's exactly what happens :) (I'm offscreen when I press Start...) I'm not quite sure I understand how to break the 2nd 'Meanwhile', afaik as soon as i press Y to throw the fairy-block in the pond Merlin will be 'in animation'... locking me down and ignoring all input? (no enemies around to get hit by) edit: oh I found a way to break 2nd 'Meanwhile', -die during the 1st 'Meanwhile' (to put camera in the correct place) -throw fairy-block in pond -press start to regain control reading your text I'm starting to think that's what you meant :P edit2: next I'll have to try if i can actually make it to some place useful (the wrench) if so, then the entire procedure would be: -break 1st Meanwhile -collect fairyblock -die -throw block in pond -press start & break 2nd Meanwhile -collect wrench/item/etc -enter password I'm not sure if the wrench would be merged into the password though comments welcome ofc edit3: unfortunately quickhexing for this game doesn't work very well :( gotta redo the entire thing from the start :D edit4: tried some stuff with the break-2nd-meanwhile... and stuff is getting messy :P anyway I couldn't get the wrench to be stored in the password given by the fairy i did get the invulnerability-glitch too but everything is a mess, e.g. merlin isn't drawn in the correct spot, etc if you feel like TASing this game again we could make it a joint effort
TASes: [URL=http://tasvideos.org/Movies-298up-Obs.html]Mr. Nutz (SNES), Young Merlin 100% (SNES), Animaniacs 100% (SNES)[/URL]
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2156)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania
I think the procedure should be: * get fairy-block and yellow gem * die * throw block into pond * press start & break 2nd Meanwhile * collect wrench/item/etc * throw gem into rainbow to get balloon * use no password I am almost feeling like TASing this game now... EDIT: I made a correct track map: It doesn't look good, but I think it's useful especially for a 100% items run. EDIT2: Death can be abused to save time in this game. EDIT3: I am wondering if the game will still think you complete it with all items collected if you skip some key items which are supposed to be required to complete the game. EDIT4: Replaced the map with a new one. EDIT5: Replaced the map with a corrected one.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
Active player (356)
Joined: 1/16/2008
Posts: 358
Location: The Netherlands
nice map, one tiny flaw in it... there's another (and required) junction at the corner north of warp #8 I was working on a map of the hedge maze myself but progressing slowly :P you're right about the procedure, just a shame that it means that the graphics will be messy for a very long time (it'll be fixed when the balloon is first used) note also that by doing this, death-warps cannot be used until then (in the hedge-maze) since merlin is invincible btw I'm not sure what the fastest way to collect both the yellow/orange jewel and the fairy-block is... they don't fit on 1 screen so i thought this'd be best: - collect jewel - wait for lake-lady to appear - get hit - collect fairy-block - die
TASes: [URL=http://tasvideos.org/Movies-298up-Obs.html]Mr. Nutz (SNES), Young Merlin 100% (SNES), Animaniacs 100% (SNES)[/URL]
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2156)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania
DaTeL237 wrote:
you're right about the procedure, just a shame that it means that the graphics will be messy for a very long time (it'll be fixed when the balloon is first used) note also that by doing this, death-warps cannot be used until then (in the hedge-maze) since merlin is invincible
You can avoid these trouble by entering Pinedale at right frames, then no invincibility or long-term graphic errors. I updated the map with correction. I haven't decided to TAS this game because I haven't found a way to skip the air buble and I hate to revisit a place(the underground palace) too many times.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
Active player (356)
Joined: 1/16/2008
Posts: 358
Location: The Netherlands
klmz wrote:
You can avoid these trouble by entering Pinedale at right frames, then no invincibility or long-term graphic errors. I updated the map with correction. I haven't decided to TAS this game because I haven't found a way to skip the air buble and I hate to revisit a place(the underground palace) too many times.
hmm only tried varying the moment of first entering pinedale... not the moment of leaving or re-entering (I assume you used the same procedure?... enter, leave, re-enter) I ran into the same problem with the bubble :/ it's easy to catch the fish without airbubble, but i can't make it back to safety in time and haven't found a way to prevent the item 'reset' (strangely, bottle states are not reset) edit: w00t! Found a way to get the fish without the bubble :) I think 10 hearts are required (maybe less by using some fancy dmg-boost off a cave-fish?)... here's a demo of how to do it i went ahead and watched what happened later and the results are nice, the password-giving-lady grants a password that has both the airbubble and the bubble-wand, so both the red gem (from the mine) and the blue gem (from where the password is attained) can be skipped :D just gotta figure out the grand route now (quite strongly influenced by how much health is needed to get the fish)
TASes: [URL=http://tasvideos.org/Movies-298up-Obs.html]Mr. Nutz (SNES), Young Merlin 100% (SNES), Animaniacs 100% (SNES)[/URL]
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 325
Good luck with this one guys. Awesome game, used to play it all the time as a kid. That short WIP was enough to make me interested in a TAS.
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2156)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania
Great discovery. But now I am failing to get past the guardian skipping the gem for mirror.... I'll do some research there.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
Active player (356)
Joined: 1/16/2008
Posts: 358
Location: The Netherlands
klmz wrote:
Great discovery. But now I am failing to get past the guardian skipping the gem for mirror.... I'll do some research there.
heh I did/tried the same without success so far it seems that you can get closest by starting on the righthand/far side and then dmg-boosting into him while walking left gotta do some more testing anyway. still need to go get the mirror to see at what point merlin would make it through... if the backward-pushing trigger is very large it'll be hopeless :P
TASes: [URL=http://tasvideos.org/Movies-298up-Obs.html]Mr. Nutz (SNES), Young Merlin 100% (SNES), Animaniacs 100% (SNES)[/URL]
Joined: 11/28/2004
Posts: 138
Nice to see someone doing this game, remember playing it a lot on the snes way back. Never knew that you could skip so much of the game, though you had to gather all the gems. Hope you finish this.
The best time you have is the time you share with other people.
Active player (356)
Joined: 1/16/2008
Posts: 358
Location: The Netherlands
still couldn't make it past the knight :( merlin needs to be 2 pixel higher than he is when he walks up to the wall next to it (to make it through)... also I don't think there's a way to lock the camera in the palace is there? (this would mean you could just walk right through it) here's a map of the hedge maze I think that the route after collecting wrench should be (under the assumption that 10 hp is needed for the airbubble skip... which i haven't tried hard enough yet :P): - collect hedge-maze items (*) - collect lantern - collect heartpiece @ oinkmerfield - throw orange jewel in pond (*) - collect (cart)wheel + heartpiece - in the mines: collect all mine items (2x heartpiece, 1x bottle) and manipulate enemies to drop health until merlin has 7 hp - ride the minecart (1x heartpiece) - collect western underwater heartpiece - drink clear water for hp - do airbubbleskip - backtrack to the wizard to collect spring - fill bottles with clear and rainbow water (**) - re-enter underwater parts - do palace - on way back (either to throw either green or indigo jewel) collect northern heartpiece in underwater parts (using airbubble which was granted in the password) *note: during either of these, the 2nd bottle will have to be filled with clear water (3hp) **note2: alternatively, one could have the 1st bottle filled with rainbow water, and then merlin will have to detour to get blue and clear water, but I'm fairly certain that this would be slower I've drawn the mine-route on your map, I think the purple route is fastest (even when collecting health) but the green alternatives will need to be checked btw there's no heartpiece in the northeast chamber in the mines, only the red jewel
TASes: [URL=http://tasvideos.org/Movies-298up-Obs.html]Mr. Nutz (SNES), Young Merlin 100% (SNES), Animaniacs 100% (SNES)[/URL]
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2156)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania
I found 9 full hearts are very close to skipping the airbubble. Just need to be 2 or 4 frames faster.... You're right that there is no heart piece in the northeast chamber in the mines. I just thought there was something red and I put a heart piece there. According to your map, the shortest route to collect all items in the hedge-maze and leave must be: Key->Rose->Heart->Bottle->Death. Tulip shouldn't be collected until you fill an empty bottle with clean water nearby, which can warp you a little closer to it. I think how many hearts can be manipulated to drop from enemy without losing too much time could be important and should be tested. And I guess using death warp to the rainbow pond is faster than going through those plants. But these days I won't have much time to do tests. Some memory addresses: 7E03D2,2u,freeze(*) 7E0F8C,2x,x pos(**) 7E0F8E,2x,y pos(**) 7E4FD4,2u,air supply 7EEDDB,1u,heart max 7EEDDE,1u,full hearts 7EEDDD,2u,total HP *note: even if this value is 0, you may be unable to move, but you are granted to attack/open menu/use items/etc. **note: I don't know if they are the actual coordinates.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
Active player (356)
Joined: 1/16/2008
Posts: 358
Location: The Netherlands
heh I was using the same addresses and these 7EEC10,2u,X Position (2) 7EEC12,2u,Y Position (2) 7EEC16,2u,X Position (3) 7EEC18,2u,Y Position (3) 7E184E,1u,action cooldown 7E02F8,2u,camera Y (1) 7E02F4,2u,camera X (1) 7E02FB,2u,camera Y (2) 7E02F6,2u,camera X (2) the 'action cooldown' indicates whether merlin can start a new action (e.g. shoot a star, 0 for 'ready to go')... I suppose it's pretty much the same as your 'freeze' I'm not sure about the deathwarp-to-rainbow pond, afaik only those plants will make merlin warp to the rainbow pond (the oinkmers make him warp to the tulip-pond) and yeah you're right about the moment of collecting the tulip still haven't properly tried the bubbleskip with 9hp (i too was only like 4 frames short... actually merlin get's warped to the position for re-oxigizing but still dies) oh and the hedgemaze route that's one of the three routes i'm going to try... alternatives (imo) are: Bottle->Death->Key->Rose->Heart->Death Bottle->Rose->Heart->Death->Key->Death edit: lol i made a stupid mistake, I collected the very first heartpiece on the re-run.... because I thought 'gotta catch em all' anyway.... but now I get refilled to 4hp by the lakelady :P back i go again :D edit2: ok here's the fastest way i could get into pinedale without going invincible (merlin is graphically still a bit off-center) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/119245348/Rewind.smv I'll be looking into all the other stuff for a while now... as i'm not sure I fully understand the cause of merlin going invincible (note that not walking all the way rightward before getting 'thrown by a tree' will produce different results) so I was hoping you (klmz) could help me out some more :P edit3: I found that not many frames 'produce' health in the mines... and still trying to figure out what exactly triggers it :P Also, it seems from some quick real-time testing that your route for the maze is easily the fastest
TASes: [URL=http://tasvideos.org/Movies-298up-Obs.html]Mr. Nutz (SNES), Young Merlin 100% (SNES), Animaniacs 100% (SNES)[/URL]
Joined: 4/29/2005
Posts: 1212
I am happy to see that this is still being worked on. I played this at some point a few years back, never got very far, but I liked the game. :3 I wish you luck with making progress.