This is a 85 frame improvement over the rejected movie by Fortranm
Improvement breakdown: Level 1: 22 frames Level 2: 11 frames Level 3: 22 frames Level 4: 18 frames
Note - as you can tell from the numbers, there is an 11 frame rule in this game.
This is actually potentially a very interesting version of this game, that brings up a lot of issues to sort out, but I will break down the issues and what I think the results are:
  • Wii VC
    • This version of the game was only released on the Wii Virtual Console, the Rom used here was extracted from the .wad file
    • The game is actually a completely legitimate NES game, identical to the NES release. And officially released by Nintendo, even though that release date is about 20 years after the lifespan of the console
    • Given that this is a real nintendo game, I think it makes more sense to TAS it as a NES rom, not a dolphin VC TAS which would result in a double layer of emulation (dolphin emulating the VC emulating a nintendo
  • Treat it as an official game or a hack?
    • The major difference is the introduction of an extra level (which was in the original arcade version)
    • The board type used for this game is MMC1 while the original was NROM
    • I think this is evidence that this version actually predates the original!
      • The game doesn't quite fit on the (cheaper) NROM that is limited to 32kb, so rather than use a more expensive board such as MMC1, a level was gutted. It makes more sense that the pre-gutted version was released 25 years later as opposed to someone going back and writing in assembly an extra level into the game
    • Given that this is an official release, and likely intended to be released originally, I think it makes sense to treat as such, and thus it would be vaultable
  • 50 or 60hz?
    • It was released on the VC as a PAL (50hz) game
    • However, the original NES rom is not region specific (the PAL release of Donkey Kong was just the NTSC version)
    • The PAL behavior in the Wii is the result of the VC, not the game, therefore I think it makes more sense for it to be the preferred NTSC speed
One final thing to sort out on this submission is the category.
This is the "full completion" type category for this game and is thus vaultable. It is arguably rather trivially different from the any% movie, but that shouldn't be a factor with vaultability. The items collected are clearly intended to be collected as part of a full completion (it is even mentioned in the instruction book as such).

adelikat: Replaced submission file with a 12 frames faster movie. I made a mistake in the original submission and forgot a ladder boost near the end of the movie.
GoddessMaria: Judging this one as well.
GoddessMaria: It appears that the responses for this game and goal choice are divided. Some are okay with it and others are not. Considering that a consensus was made in the IRC in regards to the game and goal's legitimacy, I have come to the decision of accepting it for the Vault. The optimization is solid and the goal is considered "100%" by the game's manual.
The Consensus:
The ROM has been confirmed to run as a proper NTSC game at 60 FPS by BizHawk. As for the region coding, the game is identical for both NTSC and PAL regions and as such works for both regions as evidenced by the Wii and 3DS releases of this game. The extra stage was excluded from the NES DK game due to size and time constraints, but looks as if it were probably planned to be included. As such, we can consider this game extract of the Virtual Console WAD to be the "true" version of the game. The goal is also considered valid, as the game's instruction manual refers to the collecting the accessories as an extra goal, mentioning it as "what a true hero would do", and fitting the basic criteria for 100% completion.
Guga: Processing...


TASVideoAgent
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Renewing my disagreement with an "all items" category as a vaultable 100%. Collection isn't counted in any way except points, which are given for all kinds of other things so it's pretty arbitrary. Why not the hammers too then? I'm also pretty sure that all manuals say to collect whatever the game's collectables are; be they accessories, coins, stars, fruit, etc. All coins isn't a 100% run for a Mario game, all bananas isn't 100% for DKC, all fruit for Pac-man, etc. And plus, the differences between a regular run are little more than trivial, and almost all from one level, so I don't see what this adds over a regular run.
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Tangent wrote:
Collection isn't counted in any way except points, which are given for all kinds of other things so it's pretty arbitrary. Why not the hammers too then?
Because gathering the princess's stuff is what a true hero would do :U
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Tangent wrote:
Renewing my disagreement with an "all items" category as a vaultable 100%. Collection isn't counted in any way except points, which are given for all kinds of other things so it's pretty arbitrary. Why not the hammers too then? I'm also pretty sure that all manuals say to collect whatever the game's collectables are; be they accessories, coins, stars, fruit, etc. All coins isn't a 100% run for a Mario game, all bananas isn't 100% for DKC, all fruit for Pac-man, etc. And plus, the differences between a regular run are little more than trivial, and almost all from one level, so I don't see what this adds over a regular run.
I concur. The various attempts at 100% runs for E.T. didn't get accepted either.
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100% definitions are sometimes more obvious than other times, but they are basically never non-arbitrary. If there's really a big consensus that this run should do something additional to qualify, and there's someone willing to make that TAS, then I guess I would support the new movie obsoleting this one, but until then, this is a fine definition and a fast run, and deserves its spot in the vault.
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Personman wrote:
100% definitions are sometimes more obvious than other times, but they are basically never non-arbitrary. If there's really a big consensus that this run should do something additional to qualify, and there's someone willing to make that TAS, then I guess I would support the new movie obsoleting this one, but until then, this is a fine definition and a fast run, and deserves its spot in the vault.
In IRC we came to a consensus that this 100% definition is legit, so from my observations it's leaning somewhat towards legit
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Woah, it's the first time I see submission text that reads just like a judgment note!
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Personman wrote:
100% definitions are sometimes more obvious than other times, but they are basically never non-arbitrary. If there's really a big consensus that this run should do something additional to qualify, and there's someone willing to make that TAS, then I guess I would support the new movie obsoleting this one, but until then, this is a fine definition and a fast run, and deserves its spot in the vault.
Not all games have a viable 100% category, especially the ancient ones before such things as warp zones. I'd say this is one of them.
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Am I the only one who's iffy about this submission based on how it was recorded? This was never released for the NES, even if it's a completely legitimate NES ROM. We don't know if we can with this setup push the game beyond the limitations of the hardware it was intended for (Wii VC). A comparison to using an emulator with emulation bugs and abusing those bugs to save time can in my opinion be made here.
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Same boat as you at the first part pire.
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not sure if it helps but it was released for 3DS as a NES VC game both in America and Japan in some way either eShop or Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D promo iirc.
50 or 60hz? It was released on the VC as a PAL (50hz) game However, the original NES rom is not region specific (the PAL release of Donkey Kong was just the NTSC version) The PAL behavior in the Wii is the result of the VC, not the game, therefore I think it makes more sense for it to be the preferred NTSC speed
They both run at 60hz on 3DS and you are correct. The Wii system's video setting PAL forced most of the VC games especially Master System VC to 50hz, changing the video mode to NTSC solved this problem. The only problem is that it requires homebrew as both PAL60 and NTSC are not exactly the same.
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Spikestuff
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Greeny this was talked over at the rejected TAS
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Nintendo releasing VC games in 50Hz in Europe is something that pissed me off so much, that I actually refused to ever buy something for VC. It's just one of those things they will never learn, similar to region locking. About the TAS: I have to admit that it does seem strange to not only have this as an NES submission, but also with 60hz. It would make more sense to use official versions whenever possible (even though Nintendo is, as I said before, extremely stupid with VC PAL releases). We all know that the true version that needs a TAS would be the arcade original anyway. Too bad this can't be done yet :/
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How is wrapping the game in Nintendo's virtual console and artificially forcing the game to run at 50hz more "official"? Everything I can tell about this rom is that this IS the official version, and is a real nes game in every way. And likely what they would have released originally for NES, if it weren't cost considerations. Am I in the minority here that VC submissions are bad? You have a double layer of emulation there. Just because it is Nintendo's emulator doesn't mean you aren't emulating an emulator.
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I should tell everyone who are up in arms about this. PAL and US is classified as a World cartrige which means there is no single version for this game. 60hz gets the pass.
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So it's like how U-four-ia: The Saga was 60 FPS on Virtual Console in America, even though that leaves the DPCM in the wrong key? It would be better to get a translation of Hebereke! But the big companies will use a simple, one-size-fits-all, across-the-board approach.
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voting no. 100 percent runs are done to show off the game in cases where there are significant breaks in the game to warrant them. This? Is not one of those. I see no purpose to doing 100 percent unless it's faster.
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electricslide wrote:
voting no. 100 percent runs are done to show off the game in cases where there are significant breaks in the game to warrant them. This? Is not one of those. I see no purpose to doing 100 percent unless it's faster.
Your vote was based on the TAS. It's meant to be based on your entertainment towards the TAS.
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Emulation is emulation, as NES emulators can run VS. arcade ROMs, similarly they seem to be able to run a VC ROM. I see just no need to add Dolphin to the chain for the point of itself.
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Since I am the only one being extremely OCD about this I should try to explain my point a bit further I assume. The way I see this thing is that Nintendo's emulator that is bundled with the ROM when it's in the WAD packaging is not the emulator used to record the TAS. In my world this is the same principle as using a non-accepted emulator to make the TAS, and then try to have it published. Dolphin (or whatever the 3DS emulator with TAS tools will be called when that gets developed) would be the appropriate emulator here. The NES emulator in the WAD could theoretically have bugs in it that could theoretically produce a better time, and thus using this emulator would then be using the "buggy" emulator in this scenario, as it would then prevent glitches that would be possible using the bundled one and TAS it with Dolphin. I suppose it could also be seen as an Unreleased submission, but in my world, it would require the game to actually be unreleased.
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IF you exploit Nintendo's VC bugs (which btw are not relevant here, this is an easy to emulate NES game that both emulators emulate flawlessly), then I see that as exploiting an emulator bug. Just because it is an official emulator doesn't mean it isn't an emulator bug. And those aren't (and shouldn't) be allowed here.
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adelikat wrote:
IF you exploit Nintendo's VC bugs (which btw are not relevant here, this is an easy to emulate NES game that both emulators emulate flawlessly), then I see that as exploiting an emulator bug. Just because it is an official emulator doesn't mean it isn't an emulator bug. And those aren't (and shouldn't) be allowed here.
But if it is officially endorsed by Nintendo, means that technically the emulator is part of the game, and thus a game-glitch. That was the point I was trying to make.
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Your vote was based on the TAS. It's meant to be based on your entertainment towards the TAS.
I don't find a 100 percent run of this game entertaining. The most entertaining thing I've seen of this game was the down the ladder glitch.
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Might be off-topic, but are NES classic series games considered real GBA games?
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I'm just wondering what emulator to use for that OoT bug where it crashes on N64 but works on VC. :P