Post subject: Eye of the Beholder GBA
Pokota
He/Him
Joined: 2/5/2014
Posts: 779
So I don't know if any other versions of Eye of the Beholder are being worked on - I would suspect that the SNES version would be the preferred one for a movie if the DOS original can't be made to work, but the GBA version has a few... differences that may make it worth at least experimenting with, if not doing a proper run of. The key differences between the GBA version and basically all prior versions is that the GBA version's battles are third-person isometric tacticals as opposed to a pseudo-fps RPG. (To use a more accurate, if less comprehensible, comparison, it's essentially Unlimited Adventures updated to 3rd Edition and fed the Eye of the Beholder campaign as the adventure module, then stripped down to fit the GBA.) I've started messing around with the first floor, but I'm having trouble figuring out the RNG - if anyone's interested and able, help would be appreciated. The door opening seems to take 50 frames but I'm not entirely certain right now and need to retime it. The only reason this is a thing I'm posting is because I think it'd be a neat AF submission - when you're not watching boring fighting, you're being spun senseless from the basically instant movement. This is the movie of my tinkering; it syncs on the EUR 5 language version and on Venom's U Dump. The desync at the end is me putting in the rest thing afterwards in TASEditor Studio and not compensating in the battle afterwards. EDIT: YouTube Encode for those who can't BizHawk. Link to video
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?
Editor, Skilled player (1203)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/561612-dungeons-and-dragons-eye-of-the-beholder Info. Here. You might want to investigate this for a little bit. I've been theorizing a route: * Begin with a Wizard, a Cleric, and two fodder * Kill the fodder soon -- You need EXP for your spellcasters. * Abuse Sleep on living targets (stops their actions and allows instant death fun with follow-up physical attacks -- against a group per casting!) * Abuse Turn Undead against... Um, undeads. Also instantly slays stuff for fun and profit. * Grab Knucklebones and ditch the starter Wizard, she starts with some useful EXP. * Work your way to the third level, skill-open the rusty chest, get the Magical Cape * Get to level 3 for access to Bull's Strength and other stat-buff spells * Glitch-boost Strength to phenomenal levels (and other stats if necessary) * Get Akordia at floor 6 and ditch the starter Cleric -- Again, EXP issues * Waltz to the endgame with ridiculous stats If necessary, it is viable to purchase Cone of Cold scrolls and get some Lv1 Wizards to use 'em on large groups, though this takes luck. The RNG (address 03004D60 through VBA) is affected by waiting on the title menu and by moving two steps. I haven't worked out the particulars of it other than it is only called when needed, but having the address should help out. Doors can be opened faster by moving backwards on the same frame you press A to open it. Turning instead soft-locks the game, usually. You can move backwards towards monster encounters in order to get closer to them before the battle properly begins. In one case I'm aware of, this can allow you to skip a battle! Sleep is funny stuff -- When an enemy is asleep, any physical attack, even from a lowly Sling and bullet at range, will hit 100% of the time and will always set HP to zero. It also stops action, but alas, you still have to wait for the enemy to decide on doing nothing for a second. Nice thing about Sleep is that it also strikes an area, targeting 2 to 8 HD worth, and most kobolds act as 0 HD for some reason. Study up on this GameFAQs topic and ask yourself what 200 Strength can do. This would be a very good time to figure out the Attacks of Opportunity mechanic and have the whole group of enemies just systematically walk to their deaths against your Wizard with pointy dagger. You might want Combat Reflexes, to have more than one attack, and enough Dexterity to get the necessary number of attacks. Strength has an obvious use: Do more damage! Dexterity supports Combat Reflexes by allowing more Attacks of Opportunity. Also affects initiative, which can help with manipulation of some form. Constitution actively wants your TAS to fail. Wisdom is useful for Cleric spells -- Which you're not rightly going to care about. Intelligence gives you an extra shot of Fireball between camps. Knucklebones has 18 here, and it can't be glitch-boosted anyway. Charisma turns your lone Cleric into a walking aura of pure destruction versus any undead. Might be necessary to glitch-boost to chew through the larger hordes. Floor 1: At your first branch, take the northern route. The game secretly changes the maze slightly when you open one of these two doors, and the northern one looks much more forgiving than the eastern/southern one. Also, there's a "debug chamber" that I've never figured out how to enter, and it probably has funny teleporters to everywhere. Floor 2: Of the three Gold Keys, the pit puzzle has two ways: either take the hidden stairs down, Turn Undead stuff away, then climb a pit to bypass the puzzle proper, or fight the large kobold group who are immune to Turn Undead then go to the puzzle. The teleporter maze can be "solved" really fast without encounters. I can't think of any other surprises. Floor 3: Albrik is here. Thankfully, you can access the Magical Cape before fighting him, and this, along with Lv3 spellcasters, means you can glitch-boost four of your stats to the skies. I don't know if you still need a +1 weapon with 200 Strength to grind Albrik to dust with, but his little army won't last anyway. Floor 4: Take the southern ladder to this floor. The only way to properly reach floor 5 is this way anyway -- The pits in the northern half of this floor leads to an area in floor 5 that's blocked off by a teleporter you can't sneak by. Floor 5: There's two ways to navigate your way to floor 6, and it is possible to take the "wrong" way to floor 6 by skill-opening a rather tough door, but I think the "proper" way in the northeast section is still faster. Floor 6: Akordia is here, and he probably has more EXP over your Cleric, and it might be a good idea to get a Lv7 Cleric for Xanathar's undead bodyguards. Someone will have to work out the numbers to see if replacing a cleric is worth it, though. In any case, glitch-boosted Charisma might be necessary to defeat Albrik 2's massive army in a single Turn Undead, then a lovely whack from Knucklebone backed by 200 Strength should do the trick. Floor 7: Mmm... There are a few hidden passages. Whichever path minimizes encounters would be ideal. The hounds are fire-immune, so Lv5 Wizard can't roast them in a flash. I believe the doors you need to get through can be skill-opened, which is handy for avoiding more encounters. Floor 8: Most of the cells can be skill-opened. Go directly to the one with the required key and use that to open the one cell you can't open. It looks like a pretty fast floor. Floor 9: Ghaunadan are mean. Nothing tricky about the teleporter maze I can think of, other than the fact you'll probably crash into every encounter on the way. The last piece of the teleporter maze, which is the last set that leads to floor 10, can probably be skipped due to skills. Floor 10: Once again, I can't think of anything too tricky. Rather than finish the teleporter maze, just take the stairs to here and skill-open any doors in the way. To get past the Death Tyrants, back up one step toward them rather than facing them. For style points, Xanathar can be manipulated to start battle with too many hit points, and die to a single 1d4+1 Magic Missile damage, in case the 200 Strength stab isn't normally enough. The two Death Tyrants can be hit by Turn Undead from a Lv7 Cleric. I've studied this version almost to pieces by now. I might need more time to figure out what other nuggets of information I've got.
Editor, Skilled player (1203)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
User movie #21139027649081064 Just checking a route. This looks pretty good, just needs cleaner luck manipulation. Combat is very slow, but field movement is very fast. I probably should equip the Sling earlier, to avoid walking to the sleeping Kobolds. I need a Cleric with high Charisma. The Swords file begins with Garon, a Cleric with 18 Charisma. Also useful is the fact he is small, which makes it more likely to begin combat with the Hide Flag set. The file also has Wobby, and I generate two "fodder" Wizards to kill early on, but I pick up Knucklebone and swap Wobby out for experience related issues. Curiously, Wobby and Knucklebone has the same miniature, so unless you play this frame-by-frame, you can't tell I swapped characters. You can move and turn at the same time: Forward/backward takes place first, then you turn. You can also repeatedly turn while moving through hallways to manipulate luck without losing time. You can also press A and move at the same time: Some doors can be moved through in the same frame without a soft-lock, others you might need to back up. A and B simultaneously can open doors and open the menu, useful for times where you can't otherwise move to bypass the door animation, a very useful fail-safe, as you can close the menu and move right away regardless of whether the animation is still going or an undesirable soft-lock if you do move. Walking forwards can trigger encounters from a long distance; Walking backwards will only trigger an encounter if you end up next to one. Additionally, it adjusts the formation based on the direction you're facing, so picking forward/backward can give a better position for combat. Sleep is overpowered. Note its use early on. My follow-up attacks against sleeping targets are not manipulated -- They will always hit, and always deal damage equal to remaining HP. The Sleep spell itself does need manipulation, though. A Sling deals 1d4 damage with no way to normally exceed 4 damage, yet it did 6 damage to a sleeping target at range thanks to this odd mechanic. Sleeping targets pass their turns faster than non-sleeping ones, which is another boon. The Hide Flag is a very important flag. At combat start, Hide checks are done with each member of your party. If your entire party starts hidden, enemies will pass their turns very quickly, so even if initiative is not in your favor, being hidden means you only lose a short number of frames waiting. Experience is distributed among members who were alive at some point during battle. Because useful spells like Snilloc's Snow. Swarm and stat-boosting spells don't show until level 3, I'm strongly encouraged to kill some members to give the EXP to my Cleric and primary Wizard. The result is that I get access to Snow. Swarm early enough to deal with the Kobold Miner group. Thus, it is prudent to spend significant time to suicide created Wizards with low HP early on. Annoyingly, it's difficult to kill them off on the enemy's turn, as being unconscious denies enemy targeting unless everyone else is hidden, so the "fodder" needs to withstand the enemy's turn, then I have to abuse their Attacks of Opportunity for one hit to KO, then the next for that "coup de grace" that always kills. The power of Turn Undead should be noted, since right after dealing with Kobolds, it's rather refreshing to see skeletons and zombies falling apart the instant combat starts. Charisma lets you hit larger undead hordes and more likely to destroy the higher HD (well, "level" if you prefer) ones. The Baneguard have annoyingly high HD, requiring some hefty manipulation to defeat them. The Specials Unequip glitch is certainly pretty handy to use for going even faster. It requires a detour through two skeleton groups to get the Rusty chest holding the Magical Cape. When worn, it adds a special, and when removed, it screws up the first special slot. These special slots are used, among other things, to determine what stats to revert to normal when the special is removed. Since it screws up whatever is in the first slot, things like Bull's Strength, Endurance, and Eagle's Splendor becomes a lot more interesting. I make it a point to have it equipped before I camp, so that it can screw up the first slot again without first putting its own special in that slot when I equip it. Glitched Strength should give handy one-hit kills with physical attacks, particularly important versus Albrik and other tough monsters. Glitched Dexterity gives initiative and ridiculous number of Attacks of Opportunities with Combat Reflexes, in case I can't Fireball everything dead. Glitched Constitution is garbage. Glitched Charisma lets Turn Undead hit larger undead hordes, as well as make it more likely to hit the tougher ones, in case the RNG is a mess. In any case, it looks like the route I'm thinking of will work. There's enough experience for a two-person party to get the necessary spells, so things should go real smooth after that. EDIT: Some addresses of note. These addresses were obtained through VBA, but they should match up with the BUS addresses in BizHawk (I have trouble working out the mappings of other regions). 03004D60 : 4 bytes - RNG 03002140 - X position 03002144 - Y position 0300041C : 56 bytes : Unknown count - Combatant information +00,1u - Index number? +01,1u - X position +02,1u - Y position /\/\ +07,1s - Initiative /\/\ +09,1s - HP +0A,1s - HP max +0B,1x - Actions available (bit map: 123xxxxx: 1= 5-foot step ; 2= move-equiv. ; 3= Standard) /\/\ +0D,1x - Hide Flag +0E,1x - Flatfoot Flag +0F,1u - Attacks of Opportunity left /\/\ +18,4x - Pointer to ? +1C,4x - Pointer to ? /\/\ +2C,4x - Pointer to character definition /\/\ +34,4x - Pointer to status field (72 bytes) 0300217C : 304 bytes : Unknown count - Character information 0837D89A - BDAT information begins here (ROM) 083A3CB6 - BDAT information ends here (ROM) I have a lot of information on the internals. Rather voluminous for a single post, really. My lists on GameFAQs are largely based on the BDAT I found, and some significant VBA scripting to extract it to a readable format. It's been a while since I last used my extraction script, so I'm not sure how it's set up right now.
Editor
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris
This game seems to keep the 3.0 spirit of the game. Which is a GOOD thing. I don't know how well the rules are replicated here though. But it still looks awesome!
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
Pokota
He/Him
Joined: 2/5/2014
Posts: 779
FatRatKnight wrote:
This would be a very good time to figure out the Attacks of Opportunity mechanic and have the whole group of enemies just systematically walk to their deaths against your Wizard with pointy dagger. You might want Combat Reflexes, to have more than one attack, and enough Dexterity to get the necessary number of attacks.
Removed, see below EDIT: Okay, so Combat Reflexes is a lot more helpful than I thought now that I've actually read the description of it.
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?
Editor, Skilled player (1203)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Another thing about attacks of opportunity is that when enemies walk to a square one step diagonal from one of your guys, they don't realize they're close enough, and if they still have movement points left, will continue walking -- Attack of opportunity! One can, of course, make full use of this when the situation comes up. Enemies prefer going east/west first, then north/south. If you can't tell from the isometric view what east is, it is a slightly rotated view from the in-game map you can view. If, you know, Intuit Direction succeeds and orients the map correctly. This sort of thing is certainly useful to know when your spells can't completely do the job. As for how accurately it portrays 3.0, it seems to slip on a few details. Turn Undead outright destroys undead of similar HD as the cleric, rather than scaring them. It seems all physical attacks against a helpless target are automatically "coup de grace", even at range and enemies are nearby to bother you (this still takes a standard action and doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity). You can't cast spells on the defensive to avoid attacks of opportunity, and touch range spells must be cast up close to be used at all and are wasted if they miss. You can't heal the unconscious with spells, so once down, they stay down until the battle ends. Are any of these true in the pen & paper? Lets not get into the fact a few items and spells use the wrong dice, some touch spells bypass dodge, item specials stop working after one step, and... Yeesh, there are so many things just wrong that it's hard to list them all. I'll just state that Lesser Restoration does the opposite it should, "curing" your Bull's Strength while leaving actual stat damage alone. This is still not the worst of it.
Pokota
He/Him
Joined: 2/5/2014
Posts: 779
I feel right at home with ridiculously overpowered Turn Undead - my first brush with AD&D was Darksun: Shattered Lands, and it did the same thing there. Coup de Grace is supposed to be a full action and can't be done with a ranged weapon beyond 5 feet. Casting defensively isn't something that I'm familiar with but I want to say is the idea behind the Concentration skill. Most low level touch spells are fizzle-on-miss, and generally don't get used by non-luckhax trueclass mages because they rely on melee. Range touch is supposed to be a completely different thing from touch but I don't think any of the spells in the game are supposed to be range touch. Spells healing downed characters is supposed to stabilize an unconscious character and restore hp in one go, but it feels like a simplification thing in this game rather than any kind of technical limitation (and because casting times it's better to stabilize first and move the line of battle in P&P anyway)
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?
Editor, Skilled player (1203)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
When I say you can't spell-heal a downed character, the option to cast Cure Wounds on them do not exist at all. The only way to fix the dying status is either get lucky with each turn or hope the turn(s) you use up on other characters using the Heal skill works. Or end battle real quick and somehow get 100% recovery rate to 1 HP instantly. Might be fun to figure out where 3.0 and this game are different. If, you know, you want to figure out the sort of mess this game really is. I've been poking at BizHawk's lua for a bit and getting frustrated. I did find out a few more things about the RNG, though. 03004D5C,4x - RNG1 03004D60,4x - RNG2 Every time the game needs a new RNG... Well, break it up into a pair of two-byte chunks... 0xHHHHLLLL - Original value (pretend you see hexadecimal stuff; Either RNG1 or RNG2, as respective of later calculations) 0x0000LLLL * 0x00004650 + 0x0000HHHH = New RNG1 0x0000LLLL * 0x000078B7 + 0x0000HHHH = New RNG2 As far as I can tell, right after this calculation, you take RNG1*16 + RNG2, then use a modulo depending on which dice you're using. Not positive, yet. Usually, you only have one degree of freedom with the RNG -- Make the extra rolls using the above formula or don't. A second degree of freedom takes place in the title menu, since at that time, it appears the game sets RNG2 to a specific value based on a frame counter, giving a new seed then and there. This means the first battle really should only give two kobolds one turn each, enough to get a character dead for better experience distribution. Figuring out all the nuances will take a while, though.
Editor, Skilled player (1203)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Between assisting in a guide and dealing with things at home, it left little time to focus on this. Still, I did work out a script to read the RNG. Take the 32-bit values R1 and R2. After the randomization, take the lower 16 bits of each, call them r1 and r2. Take the sum of r1*16 + r2, and finally a modulo based on the size of the dice (or some other type of RNG roll). The first battle against the five kobolds begin with a total of 22 RNG rolls: R01 - Player 1 Initiative R02 - ? R03 - Player 1 Hide check R04 - Player 2 Initiative R05 - ? R06 - Player 2 Hide check R07 - Player 3 Initiative R08 - ? R09 - Player 3 Hide check R10 - Player 4 Initiative R11 - ? R12 - Player 4 Hide check R13 - Kobold 1 Initiative R14 - Kobold 1 Hit Dice roll R15 - Kobold 2 Initiative R16 - Kobold 2 Hit Dice roll R17 - Kobold 3 Initiative R18 - Kobold 3 Hit Dice roll R19 - Kobold 4 Initiative R20 - Kobold 4 Hit Dice roll R21 - Kobold 5 Initiative R22 - Kobold 5 Hit Dice roll This is what I believe what the RNG rolls are initially used for in that battle. It's pretty nice being able to figure out exactly how many RNG rolls are being made, then comparing the rolls to some of the internal memory watch I can make. Is it just me, or are the Kobolds getting +3 initiative bonus? I don't know where they're getting it from, really. Their dexterity says they should get +1, and I don't know where the other +2 is coming from. I've looked pretty deeply into the internals, really. Anyway, there is scripting progress, at least. The first set of battles can really do with some speeding up, and that's what I plan to TAS through, should I continue.
Editor, Skilled player (1203)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Well, I'm not sure what the second player rolls are at combat start, but I do know that it's apparently a secondary check needed to have Hide work at all. A d20 roll of at least 6 will enable the third roll to succeed at Hide, at least for the first combat. I may be decent at lua scripting, but I'm bad at simulations. I know the ideal target situation, and I know how the RNG works, but I can't work out a structure to simulate what I need. In any case, the ideal first combat: * Walk forward to battle * All party members hidden * A Kobold acts; No available targets mean turn ends instantly * A party member terminates a Kobold (either Magic Missile or physical hit) (4 left) * * Note this must not trigger attack of opportunity; Melee range Magic Missile next to the active Kobold would trigger it. * A Kobold acts, does nothing (Kobold #5, preferably, as that's the corner one) * Fodder party member terminates a Kobold, then moves to trigger two AoO, the first one hits (second is thus guaranteed kill) (3 left) * Remaining two party members kill Kobolds, including the first one to act (1 left) * Fast party member terminates remaining Kobold, the second one to act This gives two turns to the Kobolds, one of which is a fast one thanks to Hide. At the same time, I kill a fodder. Later combats are not as critical to manipulate to such a crazy degree since I'll just throw Sleep and Turn Undead for justice, and later snowball swarms and fireballs. I can probably fetch information necessary for the simulation, but I won't be able to construct the simulation myself as I am unable to imagine the process appropriately. In absence of this simulation, I'll just complete the TAS as it stands so far and point out the first combat is in dire need of improvements on submission, which I have no plans to improve myself as I lack the mental tools to do so. Anyway, there are two degrees of freedom for the RNG from the title menu: 1) By selecting a file (including backing out of character creation and going back into the file) R1 is always reset to a default value (0x1F123BB5), and R2 is set to a specific value depending on a frame counter (0x000002C2 is the earliest after my character creation, increments of 1 per frame). 2) Walking two steps (whether actual movement or just turning) will roll the RNG to determine environmental noises; If the d20 roll is a 1, an additional RNG call is made to determine what noise, so occasionally, an RNG is skipped, and it's basically impossible to use the skipped RNG. Note that a d20 roll of 2 also generates a noise, but no RNG call is made as it's always the same "walking steps" noise. Both methods can be considered equally fast. One's on a frame timer, and the other lends itself to rapid-fire on all four directions on the D-pad. Now, initiative bonus of these Kobolds appear to be +2, so they need to roll somewhat poorly. We can select Improved Initiative for our fodder, and also try to manipulate a different Dexterity to also adjust Initiative. Hide needs success for this ideal plan to work, too. Being small gives +4 bonus (default characters Garon and Wobby are both small). Dexterity also adjusts this, too. Finally, the Hide skill itself can have ranks to improve success, which we can put on the fodder. A roll of 20, after applying bonuses, is needed to hide. It is critical that our fodder dies. The first attack of opportunity isn't guaranteed to hit, but if our fodder is KO'd by the first hit, the second attack will always hit and kill. AC is adjusted yet again by our friend, the Dexterity score. Selecting a Wizard starts with no armor, so there isn't really anything more we can do, and the Wizard HP is almost certainly what's needed to die so quick. Kobold Swordsman can deal 1d6 damage, as far as I know. I'm not certain if critical hits are implemented correctly. Kobolds aren't the easiest to hit. These ones have an estimated 15 AC. If a Wizard dagger has trouble, Magic Missile can be substituted. Slings have almost no chance to hit, and besides, you have Magic Missile anyway. Garon's 10 Strength doesn't help matters much, but that mace obviously must hit something. Anyway, before I work out more specifics, it would help to know whether there's anyone willing to take up the simulation or manipulation themselves. I'm not particularly willing to work it out by hand, and I don't know how to code a proper simulation to work this stuff for me, so I'd like to know if I should give up on the first battle or start looking deeper into the internals.
Editor, Skilled player (1203)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Okay, that first battle scared me away from trying to clear this game. I'm here taking another look and refining some plans. Plan revision: * Walk forward to battle * All characters hidden * Two kobolds act, instant turn end due to everyone hidden * Fodder kills, then moves to die to two kobolds * Everyone else kills kobolds * Remaining kobold walks forward, dies to attack of opportunity from Garon Not necessarily in that order. This should wrap up the battle in one turn, with the Kobolds getting perhaps 2 turns where everyone is hidden and 1 turn only to die to us. Enemy turns should be rather minimal. I can generate a bunch of stats and tell you what is feasible. The six stats use 4d6, discarding lowest die. The RNG resets to default every time you reroll, adjusted only by frame count, so spamming the Roll option will not give us new possibilities. This limits our freedom for what we can pull from the RNG, I'm not expecting 3 CON any time soon. As for important stats, STR means we can possibly favor dagger over Magic Missile. DEX has a whole pile of effects, both positive and negative. CON gives us HP, something we want none of. INT lets us die smarter, though we need 10 to even pick Wizard. WIS lets us die wiser. CHA lets us die charmingly. For sake of simulations, Garon and Wobby are always going to be present. Our two fodder are essentially protoplasm that we can mold in various ways, limited by RNG and a few racial and feat tweaks. We can generally assume any and all stats we need, just to see if the battle can work at all, then worry about whether we can create such characters.
######| Here's how combat start looks
#+----+ Numbers are kobolds, letters are us
#|54
#|213    Garon must be A or B
#|AB+--- Wobby must be C or D
-+CD|### So, four practical formations
    |###
Character tasks are as follows: Forward fodder must kill something, either by dagger or Magic Missile, then move into range of two readied Kobolds and move once more to trigger Attacks of Opportunity, to which we must die. Magic Missile is out of the question if we allow adjacent Kobolds to act first, and they're not dead yet, leaving the unlikely dagger as our only other option. Garon must attack, needs 14+ to hit a Kobold who didn't act yet, 15+ against one who already did. If our target is Kobold #3, that's around a corner, moving the range to 18+ or 19+. Additionally, after Garon acts, a Kobold must move to a spot diagonal from Garon, then die as they continue to move and take an attack; this roll needs 15+ to hit. Damage output is 1d6+0, and that needs to kill whatever HP we target. Back fodder must use Magic Missile. 1d4+1 should kill. Wobby must use Magic Missile. 1d4+1 should kill. The particulars depend on formation. If Garon is on B, this seriously tightens what must happen: Kobolds 1 and 4 must act first. Forward fodder must use dagger to slay Kobold 2, then do the die dance. Garon must act before Kobold 5, who must act while Kobold 4 is still alive. Garon will not be able to use an Attack of Opportunity against any other Kobold, not without moving a step first, and I'd rather manipulate than spend frames walking. With Garon on A, there's a lot more possibilities. Any pair of Kobolds other than 1 can be used to kill fodder, although Magic Missile is disallowed if either 1 or 2 got to act before the fodder. 3 can act first just fine, no AoO across corners. Garon can kill either Kobold #3 or #4 by opportunity, though #5 must remain alive long enough if #4 is the target. Magic Missile can't strike Kobold #3 from position D. Ideally, we keep it all in one round. However, it is possible that we can have someone act a bit too early, and we can just skip their turn. They can act in round 2, and skipping turns is very fast. The point is to ensure Kobolds do not get a single turn where any character is not hidden, other than the one instance where we abuse Attack of Opportunity on the Kobold's turn. Let's look at dice rolls: * A initiative * A "Can Hide" check (must be 6+) * A Hide check (if Garon, 14+; if protoplasm, 9 at lowest) * B initiative * B "Can Hide" check (must be 6+) * B Hide check (if Garon, 14+; if protoplasm, 9 at lowest) * C initiative * C "Can Hide" check (must be 6+) * C Hide check (if Wobby, 14+; if protoplasm, 9 at lowest) * D initiative * D "Can Hide" check (must be 6+) * D Hide check (if Wobby, 14+; if protoplasm, 9 at lowest) * Kobold 1 Initiative * Kobold 1 HP * Kobold 2 Initiative * Kobold 2 HP * Kobold 3 Initiative * Kobold 3 HP * Kobold 4 Initiative * Kobold 4 HP * Kobold 5 Initiative * Kobold 5 HP Just starting combat, and we can instantly trim out impossible cases. Initiative is complicated business. At least I can look at the Hide rolls and tell you what choices we've got. _9 - 20 DEX Lf. Halfling 13 - 12 DEX Lf. Halfling, 20 DEX Moon Elf 14 - 10 DEX Lf. Halfling, 18 DEX medium race 15 - _8 DEX Lf. Halfling, 16 DEX medium race 16 - _6 DEX Lf. Halfling, 14 DEX medium race 17 - 12 DEX medium race 20 - _6 DEX medium race Of course, the better the Hide roll, the more choices we have with DEX for whatever simulation of Initiative we need. Such simulations can also pick a weaker AC when it comes time to being hit. Now, if we're looking at dagger poke vs. Kobold, the lowest roll we can tolerate is 8, and of course I can inform what the possibilities are there as well. _8 - 20 DEX Lf. Halfling w/ Weapon Finesse vs. flatfooted _9 - 20 STR Half-Orc vs. flatfooted 12 - 20 DEX Lf. Halfling w/ Weapon Finesse vs. flatfooted Kobold #3 15 - 10 STR 19 - 10 STR vs. Kobold #3 (corner) 20 - Automatic hit As for damage, the most a Kobold Swordsman will have is 4 HP. +3 damage is all we need, so 16 STR can do it. The only failure case for damage is, after manipulating other stats, we can't get the needed Strength. In general, the Magic Missile is much more likely to get stuff done, and if so, makes STR meaningless, but if that isn't available thanks to an active adjacent kobold, we still have the dagger to test. Finally, our forward fodder needs to take a hit. Kobold Swordsman is very accurate, bestowed a +5 Attack for some reason. Thus, our range is something like: _2 - 4 DEX medium race (except we need our Hide to work) _5 - 10 DEX medium race 11 - 20 DEX Lf. Halfling Basically, it's an automatic hit at 11+. There's no reason to shuffle armor off Garon to the fodder, if you're going to bring that up. A low roll means we must have a lower Dexterity if we're going to pass the simulation, which can have conflict with Initiative and Hide and give us a failure from that. As for damage, here's the most CON we can have: 1 - _5 CON 2 - _7 CON 3 - _9 CON 4 - 11 CON 5 - 13 CON 6 - 15 CON Of note, it is a lot easier to manipulate 7 CON than it is to find 5. If we really need 1 HP, Moon Elf would be suggested to turn those 7s into 5s. Initiative probably just needs some serious simulation. Kobolds get +3, one from DEX and two because we walked into battle rather than menu-fight. If a Kobold gets to act, someone is not hidden, and does not die to Garon's Attack of Opportunity, we hit a fail case. Forward Fodder needs two Kobolds to die against, only one hit will merely be a KO instead. Ties are handled by giving control to the side opposite of whoever just took their turn. If no one acted yet, players get the first shot. On the same side, whoever is closer to the first slot. At least, that's what I can recall from memory. The game will not give an Initiative less than 1. I don't know the limits of the RNG. I do know that I am asking for a rather significant series of good dice rolls, all on the first battle, so whether a possible RNG state exists that clears all criteria would be nice to know. I need to double check the rolls of different actions. I recall physical attacks needing a d20 for hitting, dice for damage, and one more for the screams. Critical hits are not implemented. Magic Missile needs a roll for Arcane Spell Failure despite the lack of armor, and another for damage. I don't know if Kobolds use the RNG if they have no targets to go after (when everyone's hidden, there are no targets).
Editor, Skilled player (1203)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Found a somewhat old script. It doesn't work because none of its parts are fully intact to work with. Essentially a Work-In-Progress I have abandoned a long while ago. The script wasn't designed correctly for ambiguous stats, anyway. I will continue to ask for help simulating this, as I clearly haven't met success when I was trying back then.
Post subject: Wait, it's not "ignore Dexterity". It's just -2 Initiative.
Editor, Skilled player (1203)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Came up with a script to count RNG calls. Just a call counter that runs the copy of the RNG algorithm and sees how many rolls it needs to make to get the new game state. 22-26 calls - Combat start of first battle by walk-fight (preferred method due to distance) 18 calls - Combat start of first battle by menu-fight (not making extra checks to fail Hide) _4 calls - Kobold killed by melee attack _1 call - Magic Missile cast _3 calls - Kobold killed by Magic Missile _1 call - Kobold acts (generally two calls, one for each "half" of the turn) _4 calls - Party member hit by Attack of Opportunity _4 calls - KO'd party member hit by other Attack of Opportunity The difference between Walk-Fight and Menu-Fight is that apparently your party is surprised and has less time to react when walking straight into a fight. Walk-Fight: * Enemies get +2 Initiative * Individual party members check Listen (DC 10). If that fails, check Spot (DC 10). If that also fails, -2 Initiative Menu-Fight: * Party gets +2 Initiative Dialog-Fight is identical to Walk-Fight. Walk-Fight is preferred purely because there are almost no situations where you can Menu-Fight while next to an enemy group. The close distance means no movement is necessary. Melee attacks (on hit, not miss): 1) Chance to hit 2) Damage 3) Fluff 4) Fluff Casting Magic Missile: 1) Casting the spell 2) Fluff 3) Damage 4) Fluff Kobold action: 1) Thinking Walk-Fight: 01) P1 Initiative 02) P1 Listen Check DC 10 +02) P1 Spot Check DC 10 03) P1 Hide DC 20 04) P2 Initiative 05) P2 Listen Check DC 10 +05) P2 Spot Check DC 10 06) P2 Hide DC 20 07) P3 Initiative 08) P3 Listen Check DC 10 +08) P3 Spot Check DC 10 09) P3 Hide DC 20 10) P4 Initiative 11) P4 Listen Check DC 10 +11) P4 Spot Check DC 10 12) P4 Hide DC 20 13) K1 Initiative 14) K1 HP 15) K2 Initiative 16) K2 HP 17) K3 Initiative 18) K3 HP 19) K4 Initiative 20) K4 HP 21) K5 Initiative 22) K5 HP Just about ready to determine battle start. So, that's what Spot and Listen does, I originally thought they did nothing. Listen is checked first, and if that fails, Spot is then checked (changing RNG rolls of later stuff). If they both fail, -2 Initiative, making it less likely to go first. I do not know about Feat bonus (+4 by Improved Initiative; +2 by Thug), but they probably still apply. Snap, now we have to take into account Wisdom, and whether we shoveled points into Listen on character creation. Another facet of manipulation to complicate our machinery. EDIT: Real quick, here's our bonuses: Garon: +5 Listen, +3 Spot Wobby: +2 Listen, +1 Spot Fodder: Unknown, as follows: * -4 to +4 - Wisdom rolls * +2 - Alertness Feat (if taken) * +2 - Skill ranks (if taken) * Racial Bonuses: . o Moon Elf: +2 Listen, +2 Spot . o Lf. Halfling: +2 Listen . o Half-Elf: +1 Listen, +1 Spot . o Rock Gnome: +1 Listen So Garon getting a roll of 4 or less on the Listen check will trigger an extra RNG roll at combat start. Wobby might trigger this extra roll on a roll of 7 or less. The two fodder are... Unknown, since I can theoretically pick a number of options like Hide or Improved Initiative, to say nothing of the random stat rolls. We can theoretically get a bonus of +10 at the start for our fodder, though +9 is needed to guarantee avoiding the extra RNG roll. If necessary, we can get +6 for taking Alertness and picking Listen for our skill points, and I predict more potential cases for either Moon Elf or Lf. Halfling for quick suicide in the first battle. Note that the game rolls 4d6 for each stat, taking the top three dice and discarding the lowest one, to determine stats, so low Wisdom is unlikely. Don't expect a 3 Wisdom to show up.
Experienced player (753)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1804
Location: Brasil
MODERATOR EDIT: This and the following post were originally made in a separate thread, then merged into this one. Original post content below. — moozooh hi there, i've been playing this game and it seemed like the TAS would be quite interesting with routing for some interesting strategies, TURN UNDEAD is super strong and kills many undead at the same time, making 1 cleric an easy XP farm in level 1 for example against skeletons. I don't understand if enemies are random at all or set at this game. I didn't find any speedruns but i did find FATRATKNIGHT our tasvideos member guides and comments on this game in gamefaqs: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/561612-dungeons-and-dragons-eye-of-the-beholder/70440895 https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/gba/561612-dungeons-and-dragons-eye-of-the-beholder/faqs
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Editor, Skilled player (1203)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Thread #16296: Eye of the Beholder GBA There exists an Eye of the Beholder thread already. The project is dead as I am no longer interested in doing TASing myself these days. However, if anyone is up to manipulating luck to get the first fight going how I envision it should, I will give my best support in hopes that it will revive. Turn Undead is stronger than it really should be. Instant killing entire groups of skeletons at a high chance? My strategy involves just charging forward through just the required stuff with a Cleric and a Wizard, and killing off two sacrificial party members to get the required party of 4 down to 2 for EXP reasons. I did find we get to Level 3 at a great time for Wizard spells (Sniloc's Snow. Swarm and Eagle's Splendor). Once we can reach certain magic items, we can then glitch our stats to the moon. If you're curious about my "first fight" plan: * Use a default Cleric and default Wizard, plus two sacrificial Wizards with low CON / HP * Manipulate Hide to work with our entire party. * Have two kobolds act while party is hidden, ideally because of Initiative rolls. This instantly ends their turns without animation. * Let one sacrificial Wizard kill a kobold, then move in order to die from two attacks of opportunity at once. (Kobolds needed to act to allow these opportunities) * The other three party members do their killings * The last kobold dies because of stupid movement AI and triggers an attack of opportunity, probably from the Cleric * The ordering of these actions are not set in stone If that "perfect first fight" can happen, I will be happy to see the results.
Experienced player (753)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1804
Location: Brasil
oh boy now im really intimidated...
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Editor, Skilled player (1203)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
It's quite a bit of planning on just the first fight, I will admit. After that first fight, however, it's pretty smooth. Well, relatively speaking, anyway. We just slay our second fodder in the second fight while mowing through those kobolds, then just waltz on through with luck manipulation a little more restrictive, but never too much dice rolling needed to win. Essentially, the route is: * Plan out the first fight like a freaking champ where everything comes together in a horrid luck manipulation storm of planning. * Lose second fodder on simple fights to the Golden Hammer Inn * Get Stone Key and replace Wobby the Wizard with Knucklebones, who has more EXP * Get to 3F and learn Snilloc's Snow. Swarm and Eagle's Splendor * Sweep living groups with Snilloc's Snow. Swarm * Get Magical Cape and use that to glitch our stats * Sweep undead with Charisma boosts * Sweep Albrik fight with Turn Undead, Snilloc's Snow. Swarm, then strength boosted attack of opportunity for Albrik himself * Sweep later floors with Fireball once that's available * Sweep Hell Hounds with stabs or Lightning Bolt, the one weakness Fireball has * Seriously, we just sweep through everything in a hurry. Minimize encounters with our routing! * Defeat the final boss by having him generate with an HP overflow and a single low damage hit, and the undead bodyguards by Lv7 Cleric's Turn Undead None of the rest of this stuff is as complicated as fight number 1. We'll need Sleep to speed up some early fights (it's an overpowered status spell), but after a few levels, it's Snilloc's Snow. Swarm then Fireballs all the way, and producing a path where we fight the least number of encounters to reach key points.
Editor, Skilled player (1203)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Admittedly, my charisma is rather lacking in trying for help in this game. The fact I'm considering myself retired from TASing probably isn't helping matters. Anyone who knows a thing or two about botting would really help in the first fight. I know lua, but I don't know botting, I just can't seem to tie the concept together. After that first fight, everything else can be tried manually for reasonably good results, as none of the later fights are complicated. I can probably coach anyone interested, the routing won't be complicated. Just that the first fight is... a mess.