Whats the point in using a trick that makes the game longer. I can't think of any area where a long backwalk is required because a superslide is used instead and that definitley looks entertaining to see Link frozen in a shield stance with the area's being fast forwarded. I remember watching TSA's 5:04 or Psy's current MM run and thinking how painful it was to see rolling throughout the game when backwalking could easily have been done. Forward backwalking can be done provided it doesn't waste any time to setup e.g. waiting for a chest or door to open. All the previous no and meh votes were based solely on
1. Couldn't see -
I couldn't see where Sonic was going in Sonic Advance, but I knew the game well enough to know what was being bypassed, and knew how to difficult it was to avoid deaths when Sonic's off screen.
2. Didn't use up to date tricks
This has been covered already and perhaps shows a lack of understanding with TASing and asking someone to wipe off 100's of hours of work just to use a trick that might barely save a minute.
Overall, 2 hours is the goal here and I'm on a fence as to whether it possible or not, so I'd rather see an all out time attack with no unecessary time wasted just for entertainment sake. After all isn't speed entertaining.
I believe that demanding TAS runners to sacrifice time intentionally for "entertainment" is an insult to the dedicated team of SDA researchers who worked so hard to slice OoT's necessary completion time in half over the last six months or so.
Here's the perceived attitude I don't understand. Those SDA researchers can be (and should be) proud of the tricks they have discovered, but it doesn't make sense for them to take offense if someone here does a tool-assisted run in a way that they don't prefer. Perhaps Guano agrees with you, in which case you have nothing to worry about. If he didn't, and did sacrifice some time for ideas such as this, then the solution would be for someone else from SDA who's priorities match yours to make their own TAS.
I haven't seen the super-slide yet so I'm not sure how that looks. It definitely sounds cooler than back-walking, though.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I don't see how this is even a big deal. For long distances he's going to be super sliding anyway. And super sliding usually carries a mandatory wait that can be used to set up the camera.
But for the original question my answer is: why waste the frames? Forward-backwalking isn't appreciatably more entertaining than regular backwalking. We all know where Link is going. He isn't doing anything special. He's just burning ground. We've all played the game and know what the surrondings look like. And there's even an on-screen map if you get lost. And you get to watch Link leave the landscape in the dust. Leevers struggling to catch up, etc. etc.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
jesus christ that's a lot of words.
setting up a backwalk is 1 step: aim and press z. settng up a forward camera backwalk is three steps.
this games moves at 20fps, so one step is 3 out of 60. meaning that a forwards backwalk should "waste" 6 frames. (out of 60, as in, 0.1 seconds). So if it is used to cross hyrule field, and maybe one or two other areas when a backwalk (with or without superslide) is done in a straight line for more than 10 seconds, then we have a total of maybe 0.3 seconds wasted, but the viewer gets to see a cool trick. If you SDA dudes are really that concerned about 0.3 seconds in a 2 hour run (about 0.004% time difference). Even if I'm wrong and the setup takes twice as long (that's 0.008% time difference), mwl et al are completely insane to say it shouldn't even be done once.
It's just a trick, and I don't care if it's done or not, but I really don't see the harm in him doing it 1 or 2 or 3 times.
With the superslide it shouldn't waste any time. Because you have to wait for an event to happen anyway. Whether it be the peahat getting close enough to the bush or the bomb exploding.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Wow, like a totally off-topic run away train!
It is possible to go back on topic and ask what the deal with the guards are? Even though practially re-starting will get us there faster, the problem is still there. After beating DC, it's noon; and supposedly Link got to the gardens as fast as possible, and he still needed like 3 seconds to beat the guards. Sooo...is there something missed like a speed-boost/warp/interdimensional time warp that can give poor Link his 3 seconds? Or is there going to be a drastic route change?
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Joined: 2/28/2006
Posts: 2275
Location: Milky Way -> Earth -> Brazil
it's not possible to do it with the super slide, because you can't turn backwards while you're sliding.
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It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the
kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional
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Bisqwit wrote:
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
mwl wrote:
without considering the fact that OoT simply isn't an action-filled game like SM64
This is why ratings are relative! A more exciting game gets a higher score from the viewers.
mwl wrote:
Radix hires established community members who have proven their expertise in a certain game to look over new submissions of that game and evaluate their quality
Actually, since I've verified many runs over there, I can say that this isn't the case. A more precise explanation would be "people who know the game well enough volunteer to verify for him:" there is no 'hiring' or 'proving their expertise' or whatever.
mwl wrote:
I'm making the assumption that most people who are against backwalking generally don't know the game very well
This is a bad assumption. Time and time again, people keep saying that they know the game well enough, but they just don't like watching Link's hat for extended periods of time. It's not a matter of being lost; it is a matter of boredom.
mwl wrote:
I believe that demanding TAS runners to sacrifice time intentionally for "entertainment" is an insult to the dedicated team of SDA researchers
Please get off of your high horse. Why is it that Kazooie, the person that discovered a majority of these time savers, never complains about feeling insulted? Is it because he is realistic enough to notice that his discovering something helpful does not instantly allot him adoring fans all across the world?
As I've stated in IRC, this whole backwalk issue is so trivial, it is retarded. Some people complained that they found the run boring because they had to watch Link's back for such a huge portion of the run. When the forward backwalk was found, people mentioned that hey, this would at least make Hyrule Field's trek a tiny bit more fun. And now, all of a sudden, people are up in arms over one instance where 10 frames are used up to satiate the requests of so many people? Allow me to reiterate the ethos with which much of this site should correspond: speed is a form of entertainment, not the other way around. To put completion time so far ahead of the entertainment value of a run that 10 frames in a 2 hour movie becomes a problem for you is ludicrous.
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
I wholeheartedly agree.
The issue of entertainment on TASes is getting beyond ridiculous. Entertainment now seems to taking precedence over speed. For the sake of the world these are Tool-Assisted speedruns not Tool-Assisted Trailers, we're not trying to sell the game.
Of course, make the movie entertaining, but this shouldn't come at the expense of speed. People here have been making optimized, entertaining movies for years and so it is no impossible task.
Speed is novel in itself. Walking backwards whilst missing objects and enemies is near impossible in real time and so demonstrates the perfection possible in a TAS, this is entertainment.
Any game that makes a mind-warpingly boring run isn't going to be saved by a few more jumps or glimpses of pixelated scenery. When I rate a movie i do so on the content of the run and not how much i like the game (supposing it is TAS worthy) and if anyone thinks otherwise they should get the priorities of a TAS corrected in their minds before rating.
Like i said before, we are not trying to sell the game and although only small time will be wasted over a two-hour run it is time wasted nonetheless and only for the sake of entertainment. OoT is one of the most widely appreciated games ever made and a movie that shows a completion time of two-hours or so will impress the masses.
Joined: 7/4/2005
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Hey guys, your arguement(s) are taking up 3 pages now!!!! Hopefully this will stop the arguement.
I superslide when I can
I use bombs when I can
I'm redoing the run from the deku tree from the web skip
I will not use the foward-backwards walk camera view
Yesterday was my birthday
Today is just another normal day
In chocolate bars, there are ~7 insect legs in them.
I have a typing speed of 159 words per minute.
Change my sig. again, and I will murder your pet fish.
I superslide when I can
I use bombs when I can
I'm redoing the run from the deku tree from the web skip
I will not use the foward-backwards walk camera view
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Hopefully with this argument out of the way it won't be the case. I had gotten so wrapped up in this I put off finishing the boss of my run, I'm going to get back on it this weekend.
I think this a record on most heated debate on a 20 frame difference... but Guano has it all planned out, that's good and I can't wait to see the progress of this run.
happy belated birthday Guano :)
looking forward to the improvements. You're the runner, speed vs. entertainment tradeoffs are your choice, and I'm glad you just made them instead of joining the heated debate.
Let me add one thing though: showing off cool things or glitches in a run is always a plus. If you can find a place where showing a forward backwalk (clearly a glitch) does not waste time, please try to include it just for varietys sake. Maybe even a diagonal backwalk, from what I understand of it's workings that should be possible.
Maybe the escape with the princess at the end is a good scene, you'll have to wait for her anyway, those 20 frames for setup should be there. IMHO fooling with the camera angels could spice that scene up.
[argument]
TASVideos has a number of videos (for example, Pulseman Glitched and Super Demo World) which sacrifice a few frames to show off neat glitches
[/argument]
Seriously, our primary concern should be keeping GuanoBowl sane rather than forcing him to read pages of argument. I brought the Banjo-Kazooie TAS to a stop by discovering a sequence break. I don't think we should bother him so much.
Trying 127.0.0.1...
telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused
telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
I think this a record on most heated debate on a 20 frame difference... but Guano has it all planned out, that's good and I can't wait to see the progress of this run.
Well I think this was a previous record which was an argument over 5 frames
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
yes, but were as many pages wasted or as many mean words thrown around?
Good luck to Guano with the continuation of the run, hopefully the guards can be worked around.
Entertainment now seems to taking precedence over speed. For the sake of the world these are Tool-Assisted speedruns not Tool-Assisted Trailers, we're not trying to sell the game.
Of course, make the movie entertaining, but this shouldn't come at the expense of speed.
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
That is out of the context of what i said.
I was refering to the move in question; an expense of time where the main goal was to allow the viewer to see the background scenery. The glitch itself has no artful or particularly entertaining aspects and anyone watching the run having not played the game would not even recognise that as a glitch.
This FAQ is the first thing of this site i ever read, and reading back over it just now a line jumped out at me that is relevant to everything going on in this thread recently:
"We are a diverse community, and each of us has different opinions as to what can be considered art"
