I timed it out earlier, but I think stick vs sword was over 30s faster
lol.
edit:
(*EDIT* 25s)
I still lol'd.
You're post add nothing of value, please check forum rules and stop spamming forum, thank you. :)
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Sure it does. I was pointing out that your timing is not just wrong, it's laughably wrong. This prevents people that don't know better from thinking you know wtf you're talking about. I'd say that adds value.
How do you intend to get a stick in the first place? How will you kill a deku baba with no sword?
You'd buy the first two sticks, like I said in the OP.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Spider-Waffle is actually right here. The stick route arrives indeed exactly 30 seconds faster at the lost woods than the sword route. The timing is based on TASing both routes. You can add another 90 frames because of the fact, that you've already read the deku stick text, that appears when you collect a stick for the first time.
Slowi and I discussed this a while ago and weren't really sure, which route is faster.
As you need the first stick to skip the owl in front of kakariko, you have to buy a 2nd stick the same time you buy the shield. There's a problem, though. AS you lose that stick at the mido skip, you can't kill any babas to obtain more deku sticks.
You could also drop bugs at the magic bean spot to make a gold skulltula appear and use it for the mido skip. As the skulltula takes quite a long time to appear (over 10 seconds), we should focus on finding a quick way to gather enough rupees to buy 2 sticks.
Altogether, this means we need at least 60 rupees. Here are some potential sources:
- 5 rupees on the way from the shop to the lost woods (can be obtained without the loss of any frames)
- 5 rupees on the platforms after leaving the shop: costs around 2 seconds, because you couldn't use the quick ledge grab trick anymore
- 2 rupees in the grass on the way to the lost woods: shouldn't cost too much time combined with the aforementioned blue rupee
- 15 rupees can be collected in the river while losing only a few frames
- 2 more rupees could be obtained there by dropping half a second
- There's a red rupee in the river. It hasn't been timed yet how much time it costs to grab it. I guess 4-5 seconds is a good estimation.
- 20 rupees in the grotto in kakariko: costs around 8-9 seconds
- 3 rupees from the stone we pick up to collect bugs: shouldn't cost too much time, probably around 21-27 frames
- 5 rupees in front of the shop (could be obtained on the way to the lost woods as well, would cost a lot of time, though)
- 5 rupees inside of the shop: costs 3 seconds and should be avoided if possible. Swordless messed up when he collected that blue rupee, because it is clearly slower than slashing 2 more bushes
I'm not 100% sure which combination is the best. It's probably best to collect those rupees:
- 5 rupees on the platforms after leaving the job
- 5 rupees behind the house on the way to the woods
- 17 rupees + the red rupee in the river
- 3 rupees from the stone in kakariko
- 5 rupees on the platforms on the way to the shop
- 5 rupees in the shop
The collection of the rupees should cost around 14 seconds. Buying a 2nd stick costs another second. As the stick arrives 31 seconds quicker at the woods, there are 17 seconds remaining.
The question is, how much time we lose in zora's river due not having the sword and therefore being not able to do any slides. We could also lose some time elsewhere due to not being able to jumpslash or whatever.
I'm also not sure whether it is possible to kill deku babas using deku sticks. I was once told, that crouch stab/ISG could kill them if you haven't used the sword/stick before hand. As the crouch stab stores the power of your last attack, it behaves like a normal sword if you haven't used any attacks in an area yet. I'm not sure if this attack can really kill any enemies, though.
This would only help for the deku tree are any way, because we have to jumpslash at the mido skip.
Thinking about it carefully again, the limit on sticks should make this a bit slower than the sword route. We couldn't slash cuccos, we couldn't slide in zora's river, we would have to use ISG against most enemies instead of crouch stabbing, we couldn't jumpslash in the deku tree etc, but it is still worth keeping in my mind for the future.
Sure it does. I was pointing out that your timing is not just wrong, it's laughably wrong. This prevents people that don't know better from thinking you know wtf you're talking about. I'd say that adds value.
Well you just compare times from 2 videos, anyone can do it if they don't believe me, it's quite easy and no secret. Gunz has even said he TASed the stick route and it was 30s faster, so even better. Again, your posts add no value and are clutter, please stop.
I don't suppose you could use the half-broken stick glitch instead of buying more sticks. What are the limitation of this glitch.
pretty sure this would be fastest for the 60r after the first stick
5r platform
2r gass
5r before vines
39r river (get 20r)
3r rock
5r platforms
59r
1r more maybe in river detour, or get the 5r in shop
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
he actually implied it, if you read it carefully once again. He said, that the stick is "initially" 30 seconds quicker and then keeps losing time. In fact, he was right about this.
It's wrong to instantly attack spider-waffle, rog. Not only because what he said was correct, but also if his timing was totally wrong, you should have explained him why instead. Your way to answer him just causes a good old flame war and nothing else ;)
It's actually the 30 seconds faster to lost woods, plus deku collection text PLUS shop z target girl text. Even so, I have doubts the stick route, post lost woods, can avoid losing more than 34ish seconds compared to the sword route, since the stick route needs extra rupees slowing it down and the sword route has extra speed optimizations available.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
I don't suppose you could use the half-broken stick glitch instead of buying more sticks. What are the limitation of this glitch.
Here's the glitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caTATtcso7I
Can you do that, use the half-stick to HESS past Mido, and then kill the three deku babas with that stick?
Edit: I think you'd also have to consider buying two sticks initially if the rupees are convenient enough. How much time does the HESS to Kakariko save versus backwalking with the stick owl skip?
Also, is there definitely no way to get past the 2-3-1 room OoB without bombs? That's all that shield is really needed for, right?
I'd be shocked if swordless wasn't faster. The main benefits to sword are less rupees and stick collecting. Getting the extra rupees is <10s and the sticks <8s. The WESSes in river and cucco you lose about 3s each. I'd expect swordless to be about 10s faster. People tend to vastly overestimate how much time small sword tricks save and how much time collecting extra rupees takes as was the case with swordless old route which most said was obviously slower yet turned out to be over 10s faster.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I'm guessing this has already been tested, but what happens if you don't have a sword when you get the master sword back during the Ganon fight? It would be quite entertaining to see the game beaten with the master deku stick.
With the help of Gregortixlkyns's OoT Bingo route, I discovered temp dungeon flags are not reset when death wrong warping, meaning that death wwing will preserve temp flags, much like FWWWing will restore temp flags to the state they were at when the restore point was set.
The only thing discovered so far is that the ladder in DT's slingshot room shares the same temp flag as the flag that determines if the bombable staircase in DC is down.
I would guess the game sets temp flags in RAM and then sets perma-flags once you save or leave the dungeon.
Probably keeps things more organised.
Funny thing is that they do the same thing in Skyward Sword. That is how you can open the light house with another cutscene + BiT
So as I understand this we could bring down the staircase in DC by shooting the ladder in the Deku tree? Might have potential...
They're not permanent changes. At least I know the stairs aren't.
Apparently the Deku ladder links to a random door in the escape exterior when you do ganondoor, iirc, but it can't save time... except maybe if you could somehow get down there and go in that open door. Apparently there are no other temp flags in deku, sad. Possible you could open some more useful doors or skip the collapse cutscene.
A list of every temp flag ever would be nice to have, lol.
No. DC stairs and DT slingshot ladder are NOT permanent changes.
Slowi is still right about perm flags though.
There is a spot in memory I call the SRAM block because when the game is saved, an exact copy of this ram block is stored in the SRAM.
Inside this block exists a rather large segment that I call the Scene Flags. This block stores all the permanent flags tied in to a particular scene, except for certain actors (like skulltulas for example).
It's important to note that the main dungeon and it's boss room are two different scenes.
Now there's another block that petrie discovered that stores the flags that affect the current scene, including the permanent Scene Flags. Permanent Scene flags are updated in this temporary holding, then pushed into the SRAM block either when the scene is left or the game is saved.
Anyway, there's a part of this temporary flag block that stores temp "switches", like the DC Stairs or the DC "boss door" puzzle. It starts at 801CA1CC (version 1.0) and is a full word. The byte at A1CC is special because it stores room local flags that are reset when the room is exited; It should be impossible to store these flags with FW, and they are reset on death. The last 3 bytes are typically related to an area rather than just a single scene, and are reset depending on the exit used. The state of these 3 bytes can be stored in FW, but FW will only store the state they were at when at the last room entrance (most likely meaning the either the last door opening or death).
If necessary, timed temp switches like crystal switches can be kept by leaving the room they were set in either by outrunning their timers or death warping.
They're not permanent changes. At least I know the stairs aren't.
Apparently the Deku ladder links to a random door in the escape exterior when you do ganondoor, iirc, but it can't save time... except maybe if you could somehow get down there and go in that open door. Apparently there are no other temp flags in deku, sad. Possible you could open some more useful doors or skip the collapse cutscene.
A list of every temp flag ever would be nice to have, lol.
Which door is it? If it's the last one that could save some major time, I know you can go down by getting hit by a bomb before landing, maybe a bombchu too. Might be a way to fall and get pushed back from shield blocking a falling rock into the door before landing, not sure when the game warps you back.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I'm pretty sure it's the last door on the exterior, but I'm not sure it'd be worth the time to get chus in Any%, and MST would just do it normally anyway.
I'm pretty sure it's the last door on the exterior, but I'm not sure it'd be worth the time to get chus in Any%, and MST would just do it normally anyway.
Well if it's the door at 15:28 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5THTOYdbtDY
that'd save around 1:47, I think the chus take around 2:00, but you'd also have to unlock the slingshot door which I think takes over 30s, you skip all ruby collecting though and buy w/e.
if it's the door at 15:59, which I doubt, it'd be around 2:03 saved.
Either way I think it'd have to be without chus to save time, such as with shield blocking falling rocks or some other yet to be conceived shenanigans.
I'd don't suppose DC method has been found, using starcase for tower door trigger, getting 18 some extra bombs for tower door trick and SSs, sword steal, would be interesting.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
It is definitely the door at 15:28.
However... I just realized something very interesting about Master Quest.
The Deku Tree in Master Quest sets more temp switch flags that we can use. The flame switch on the top floor unlocks the gate after the one at 15:28, the falling floor in the Deku Tree unlocks the first exterior gate ("F4"), and most interesting of 'm all, the ladder no longer unlocks the last exterior door, it unlocks the "F3" door.
Why is it interesting? Because it means that if you jump OoB you can skip the first floor.
Edit: I want to point out that I haven't tested any of this with Ganondoor, if someone would try it out in just normal OoT with the ladder that'd be great.
