With Navi trick on sidehop, doing DC on Mush timer seems very good for TAS, this way you could save 20s by not going off route and do DC after getting mushroom.
I don't get what you want with that mushroom thing.
DC is done AFTER magic, for 2 obvious reasons:
- Once you have Poacher's Saw, you RBA warp songs. So doing DC this late in the run allows us to warp out of the boss room after beating King Dodongo instead of dieing. We have to warp to Lake Hylia anyway to get to Gerudo Valley, where we get the Broken Sword, so wapring instead of dieing saves quite some time.
- To get from Lost Woods to Kakariko it is cleary fastest to travel over Hyrule Field. Going through Goron City after Odd Mushroom would cost quite some time, especially because we don't have the hookshot.
And before somebody asks: You can't use the Ocarina in Boss Rooms, but to be still able to warp there, we can simply use Ocarina Items (Backflip + Bottle + Bomb).
With Navi trick on sidehop, doing DC on Mush timer seems very good for TAS, this way you could save 20s by not going off route and do DC after getting mushroom.
I don't get what you want with that mushroom thing.
DC is done AFTER magic, for 2 obvious reasons:
- Once you have Poacher's Saw, you RBA warp songs. So doing DC this late in the run allows us to warp out of the boss room after beating King Dodongo instead of dieing. We have to warp to Lake Hylia anyway to get to Gerudo Valley, where we get the Broken Sword, so wapring instead of dieing saves quite some time.
- To get from Lost Woods to Kakariko it is cleary fastest to travel over Hyrule Field. Going through Goron City after Odd Mushroom would cost quite some time, especially because we don't have the hookshot.
And before somebody asks: You can't use the Ocarina in Boss Rooms, but to be still able to warp there, we can simply use Ocarina Items (Backflip + Bottle + Bomb).
Are you sure it's faster to get from LW to KV by going through forest and field? I thought it'd be going to GC and DMT to KV, in which case DC is 1s off route and it'd be fastest to do it then instead of dropping down before or after magic, even if it's slower the difference would still have to be timed.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I'm thinking I'll get into TASing this game because I like it, and it seems new stuff is still possible. Any suggestions on what to do to get started from scratch?
come on, spiderwaffle.
Did you ever watch Bloobiebla's TAS? It is clearly fastest to go via Hyrule Field.
Well he never goes from LW to KV through DMT so nothing is clearly faster. Also, you'd have to add the difference in time from going to DC before magic and when going by DC.
It takes him 50s to get from LW item to door of shop going through HF, and 27s to get from LW to DMT going through GC, It should take about the same amount of time extra to do DC before magic as it would to get from GC exit to KV.
So if anyone of the routes is clearly faster I think it's going through GC to DMT, by about 13s.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I'm thinking I'll get into TASing this game because I like it, and it seems new stuff is still possible. Any suggestions on what to do to get started from scratch?
You could take part in Grunzs TAS competitions. They are always good practice.
@SpiderWaffle
Have fun testing all that crap many people have tested before.
I'm thinking I'll get into TASing this game because I like it, and it seems new stuff is still possible. Any suggestions on what to do to get started from scratch?
you should come to the zelda irc, swordless link and I are usually there, so whenever you'd have any questions, we cold help you ;)
server: irc.speeddemosarchive.com
channel: #zelda
Spider-Waffle wrote:
MrGrunz wrote:
come on, spiderwaffle.
Did you ever watch Bloobiebla's TAS? It is clearly fastest to go via Hyrule Field.
Well he never goes from LW to KV through DMT so nothing is clearly faster. Also, you'd have to add the difference in time from going to DC before magic and when going by DC.
It takes him 50s to get from LW item to door of shop going through HF, and 27s to get from LW to DMT going through GC, It should take about the same amount of time extra to do DC before magic as it would to get from GC exit to KV.
So if anyone of the routes is clearly faster I think it's going through GC to DMT, by about 13s.
Why do you keep throwing numbers around, that aren't even based on exact timings you got by TASing the stuff?
And other than that, you are so keen on being right, that you simply ignore the stuff I write. I wrote, that we want to warp out of the Boss Room of Dodongo's Cavern instead of dying and going up to magic then. We get magic before Dodongo's Cavern and then warp to Lake Hylia after killing King Dodongo. And that's why we do DC after Magic.
And other than that, you are so keen on being right, that you simply ignore the stuff I write. I wrote, that we want to warp out of the Boss Room of Dodongo's Cavern instead of dying and going up to magic then. We get magic before Dodongo's Cavern and then warp to Lake Hylia after killing King Dodongo. And that's why we do DC after Magic.
It has nothing to do with being right, I'm trying to help find the fastest route which I'm basing off to the nearest second timing from TASes. If you expect me to concede to common opinion when no explanation or valid proof is given, you've got me all wrong. When something is possibly faster I'm going to investigate until I find sufficient proof one way or the other. If you don't like that, then you are doing a disservice to the community.
So you'd have to add the time of death warping and getting out of DC and back on the track to KV, which is 10s So I still wager DC on mush timer is 3s faster. But any case, the route magic to DC needs timing, and GC to DC to KV as well. Neither of them is clearly faster, but assuming they are the same, DC on mush timer would be 3s faster.
Rely on route choices less on intuition and assumptions and more on scientific facts and experimentation. It still baffles me to this day why this community doesn't agree with this and I face such violent opposition for doing the later.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
It still baffles me to this day why this community doesn't agree with this and I face such violent opposition for doing the later.
I would guess that it's because you ask open-ended questions that you could easily answer yourself with basic testing/timing, but you don't. The "explanation or valid proof" is right there for you to find - why don't you go find it? The "investigat[ion]" you are claiming to do is more just asking others to satisfy your own lazy curiosity. Then you claim to be the victim of "violent opposition" when others don't do the work for you in order to validate/disprove your claim. And this is a pattern you've shown in other game threads, so people come to expect it from you more and more, and have learned to dismiss you more quickly.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
It still baffles me to this day why this community doesn't agree with this and I face such violent opposition for doing the later.
I would guess that it's because you ask open-ended questions that you could easily answer yourself with basic testing/timing, but you don't. The "explanation or valid proof" is right there for you to find - why don't you go find it? The "investigat[ion]" you are claiming to do is more just asking others to satisfy your own lazy curiosity. Then you claim to be the victim of "violent opposition" when others don't do the work for you in order to validate/disprove your claim. And this is a pattern you've shown in other game threads, so people come to expect it from you more and more, and have learned to dismiss you more quickly.
Others not testing to figure out what routes are fastest before they make TASes or RTS is one thing, but the violent opposition I'm referring is obviously not that, It's much more to do with people's outrage when I propose the idea that their crude assumption is quite possibly wrong. If they're mad that I'm not doing all the exact testing to prove which is faster, they should express that. Getting mad about the idea their crude assumption is wrong doesn't express this to me. They could say, "you bring a great point and back it up with some evidence that this assumption may in fact be false and making a run with this assumption could quite possibly be using a bad strat strategy when a better one is available, until someone or myself tests this I will retract the assumption that of one route being clearing faster is true."
Whoever wants to tests it can do it, I'm not making the runs, I'm not that skilled at playing or testing, though I have tried on many occasions. I'm just helping people for when they do want to make runs that they might actually test something I'm showing could be possible or better. Since they're doing the runs it would make the most since that they would want to test this themselves to ensure they're doing the best strategy. What gets me is when instead of this they get mad at me for pointing out the glaring holes in their assumptions and logic, or an alternative strategy which could be faster. If they don't want to test it that's fine, but if they can't proove it's not better then they need to say this and preferably in the comments as well so other runners know there is another strategy which could be faster that they didn't test. Not just be upset I don't test it and say that I'm wrong with no proof. If had the skill the easily test, I would. Being mad, ignoring, or making false claims because I don't is no way justified.
You'd also think my track record, with DoT skip, Spirit temple hovers to skip bean, tektite, child swordless; people would start appreciating my suggestions and want to test them more open minded by now. Again, I can't test my suggestion well at all which I why I bring them here so other people can test them or show interest in them.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Yeah sure we are outraged. So outraged, that we calmly try to explain to you, over and over, why something does not work.
At this point we are just really annoyed.
Do your own timing or go the fuck away.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
You'd also think my track record, with DoT skip, Spirit temple hovers to skip bean, tektite, child swordless; people would start appreciating my suggestions and want to test them more open minded by now. Again, I can't test my suggestion well at all which I why I bring them here so other people can test them or show interest in them.
You really think those things had anything to do with you? You might want to go to a psychologist. I think there is a lot of narcissistic personality disorder to be treated here.
Yeah sure we are outraged. So outraged, that we calmly try to explain to you, over and over, why something does not work.
At this point we are just really annoyed.
Do your own timing or go the fuck away.
That doesn't seem like calmly trying to explain why something doesn't work... Thanks for proving my point. cheers
Slowking wrote:
You really think those things had anything to do with you? You might want to go to a psychologist. I think there is a lot of narcissistic personality disorder to be treated here.
Well those were things which I adamantly supported in the face of violent opposition via telling me I was wrong or it was impossible or was slower with false or no reasoning; which were later proved to work and be better. Had people listened to me more opened-minded sooner they could have been found even sooner, that was all I was trying to convey.
And again, you seem mad and I can't see how it's justified, using profanity and telling to me see a psychologist and that I have a disorder. This is not called for on this forum, and I did nothing to warrant this.
I'm in no way trying to annoy you, I'm out for the same goal as you, to help see the fastest runs to finished. I'm bound to suggest things which people with more knowledge of the game already know don't work for various reasons. I do my best check sources and not suggest things which waste time and clutter. I appreciate baring with some dumb questions from time to time, but do recognize I suggest gems in the face doubt which turn out to be great as well.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I think the problem is a combination of S-W not testing beyond timing videos and repeating ideas to the point of being grating to the actual runners. Lots of strong personalities in the Zelda community :) But the ideas themselves are at least worth being discussed, imo.
Is there a written-down ganonless route somewhere besides "look at the current RTS record and stick a tektite hover and ocarina items warp in there" somewhere? Sorry if I missed it in this thread already.
Just gonna point out that DC on the mush timer is impossible. Once you kill KD there are only 4 ways out of that room: savewarp, die, OI and play a warp song, enter the blue warp.
Savewarping and dying will both revert mush to cojiro, so you would have to go back to the lost woods to get the mush again.
Entering the blue warp will make a Ganonless finish impossible.
You won't have any warp songs until you RBA the saw, which is 2 items after mush. Even so, a warp song will set your mush timer to 1 second remaining, so that wouldn't help anyway.
It can't be done so there's no point in timing it. There's also the matter of needing sword on B to kill KD, then needing a bottle on B when you get saw, but it doesn't matter since this is all impossible theory-route crap. If you aren't using stick B, the only sensible place to do DC is after magic.
edit: I guess after saw but before magic is a possible place for DC, but it doesn't seem faster at all. going from DC up to magic takes way longer than going from magic down to DC, and the warp song out of KD's room to Lake Hylia makes the most sense. Also MrGrunz I hope this is the fastest way to DC from magic, because it looks awesome :)
Wow, that warp to DC is awesome, I was going to say after you pointing the glaring problem with DC on mush timer, that there should be some shortcut to DC from magic area that's already been found, since they seem close together, but with terrain in the way, and the wall around magic is low. That would even mush timer way slower by a good 10s or more I think.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
edit: I guess after saw but before magic is a possible place for DC, but it doesn't seem faster at all. going from DC up to magic takes way longer than going from magic down to DC, and the warp song out of KD's room to Lake Hylia makes the most sense. Also MrGrunz I hope this is the fastest way to DC from magic, because it looks awesome :)
Totally forgot about that trick, it's like the best shortcut ever :D
That is definitely the quickest way to get to DC and would be used in the route using Light Arrow Cutscene to BA.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Slowking wrote:
Yeah sure we are outraged. So outraged, that we calmly try to explain to you, over and over, why something does not work.
At this point we are just really annoyed.
Do your own timing or go the fuck away.
That doesn't seem like calmly trying to explain why something doesn't work... Thanks for proving my point. cheers
I don't share the same opinion as Slowking, but your answer to that is a bit wrong. When Slowking said, that "we calmly try to explain to you" he was talking mainly about my answers to your suggestions. I usually answered factual and explained in detail, why your idea won't be quicker. I always gave a few reasons and you often simply ignored a few of them.
I'm always glad if somebody contributes nice ideas, almost everything is worth thinking about when it comes to OoT. Yet you still have to be able accept that one of your ideas doesn't work the way you want it to and that is where the problem begins. You just keep suggesting the same thing over and over again.
I hope that you don't stop contributing your thoughts, but at least change your attitude towards your own ideas ;)
