yeah, hookshot skip now
now everything left to do is figuring out, which bottle we should get as child and when we get the magic beans and then a new run can be started ;)
yeah, hookshot skip now
now everything left to do is figuring out, which bottle we should get as child and when we get the magic beans and then a new run can be started ;)
Wait, I'm confused.
You had to spend time researching the use of a mega flip to get across the bridge so you could skip the hookshot? Aren't there already plenty of tricks for stuff like that?
Like the Bomb hover? Does that not work in this context? I guess even if it did, the mega flip is far faster.
Any clarifying answers would be much appreciated.
Grunz and I talked about potential child routes and we think this might be fastest:
- go to ZR, buy magic beans
- climb zoras river with cuco and enter zoras domain
- get silver scale
- swim through warp to lake hylia
- plant bean
- get ruto bottle
- swim back through warp to ZD
- get real bottle from king zora
- swim down ZR to castle town
What do you guys think?
Btw. if you have planed something else you should really post that route here as well. It took us forever to get the MM route right and we never would have made it if that route hadn't been open in the thread. Grunz, a few others and I would have never seen it and it wouldn't be anywhere near where it is today.
Well, the current WIP takes 2:38 worth of stopped time in Kakariko to get the bottle. We need to figure out whether or not we can spend less than that amount of time with time stopped to see whether Ruto's bottle really is faster. Climbing Zora's Domain, talking to the king, and exiting would take about 1:45 most likely, so if getting the silver scale takes less than 53 seconds, it would be faster. Another thing to take into consideration is the extra 20 rupees required to play the diving game. These can probably be found by jumping into the water for a short time while climbing Zora's River, which wouldn't cost game time, but if we need to collect them in Kokiri Forest, that's a huge hit to time.
Another option is the gold scale. Time passes at an odd rate while fishing, I believe it's about 1/4 speed, so we would need to enter the fishing pond and exit within about 1:20, which is easily possible. We just need to see which route of all three takes the least in-game time.
Another thing to factor in is that it may not be the best option to collect a Deku Stick, since there is only one owl text if Kakariko Village is never entered. It would definately be faster to skip it if time passes while the owl is talking.
We just need to see which route of all three takes the least in-game time.
We're looking for the route that PASSES the most in game time, right? It isn't plausible to get to the bridge the day before.
If anyone wants to try clipping into Hyrule Castle at night by megaflipping off a skeleton, this would save a lot of time in the run, but I was informed this is probably not possible.
I will continue discussing assuming this isn't possible.
Slowking wrote:
So the common point in the 4 suggested runs is getting to the magic bean patch. At that point there are two variables which need to be considered, real time spent, and game time spent.
The current WIP by Swordless, Bloob, and AKA wastes roughly 15-25 seconds of run time because not enough game time was able to be passed. I did not count the time spent collecting 40 rupees.
If we directly compare this run to proposed route 1 or 2. (Exactly the same time spent not passing game time, very similar in run time.)
2. Zoras River first, Kakariko second
- get sword and 60r (60r)
- buy shield and deku stick (10r)
- do old forest escape
- get to zoras river and buy magic beans (0r)
- get to Kakriko and get bottle
- get to lake hylia through hyrule field
- get 80r from bushes and plant bean (80r)
- fly to castle town and buy Hylia Shield (0r) (you won't have to wait as long for the flight because getting the magic bean takes gametime)
- go foreward in time
We get that more in game time is spent traversing to Zora's River and the Magic Bean Guy, and more time is spent planting the bean and acquiring 80 rupees. This route would probably require no wasted run time at Lake Hylia. MrGrunz spends about 20-25 seconds in Zora's River to collect beans. Add this to the amount of time spent traversing/from Zora's River This makes the route late for the optimal owl ride by about 20-30 seconds or so.
If it is possible to get past the boulders 5 seconds faster, that will be significant.
Is it possible to megaflip off a skeleton over the Lake Hylia gate instead of climbing the ladder? I think this would save a few seconds.
3. Through Zoras domain
- get sword and 60r (60r)
- buy shield and deku stick (10r)
- do old forest escape
- get to Kakariko and get bottle
- get to zoras river and buy magic beans (0r)
- go up Zoras river into Zoras domain and somehow glitch into the warp to lake hylia (that would have to be discovered first)
- get 80r from bushes and plant bean (80r)
- fly to castle town and buy Hylia Shield (0r)
- go foreward in time
At the point of Zora's River magic bean guy, is it faster to go back through Hyrule Field, or go through Zora's Domain? Assuming time doesn't pass in Zora's Domain, you will have to wait a much longer amount of game time at Lake Hylia. You will definitely get to Lake Hylia much earlier, but you will have a substantial amount of time to pass. Game time would not be spent while in Zora's domain.
If route 1 or 2 is late for the owl by x+1 seconds, and x amount of real time is not used to pass game time in Zora's Domain, then this route ends up faster. x is projected as about 20 seconds.
This could actually be faster if optimized. It's hard to tell.
4. Silver scale and ruto-bottle
- get sword and 80r (80r)
- buy shield and deku stick (30r)
- do old forest escape
- get to zoras river and buy magic beans (20r)
- go up Zoras river into Zoras domain
- get silver scale and dive through the warp to lake hylia (0r)
- get ruto bottle, bring it back to king zora and again dive to lake hylia
- get 80r from bushes and plant bean (80r)
- fly to castle town and buy Hylia Shield (0r)
- go foreward in time
This one splits the Kakariko time into Zora's River, Zora's Domain, Silver Scale, Grabbing the Bottle, and back into Zora's Domain.
Going up Zora's River spends game time, Grabbing the bottle spends game time. You cross Hyrule Field less, so I'm pretty sure you'll be waiting a long time at Lake Hylia.
If less time is spent in Zora's Domain and getting the Silver Scale than was spent in Kakariko Village, this will be the fastest route.
Conclusion: It depends directly on the amount of "non-game passing" time spent in Kakariko Village in route 1,2,3 vs the amount of "non-game passing" time in route 4 spent in Zora's Domain and collecting the Silver Scale.
I am pretty sure with the faster of route 1 or 2 you will be late by about x = 20 seconds for the owl at Lake Hylia. Compare this to x frames wasted not passing time in Zora's Domain in route 3. (Also around 20.) With route 4 you will wait a while, but that is because Hyrule field is not traversed. This isn't good or bad by itself.
Route 1,2,3
Transition out of Zora's River + Transition into Kakariko Village + Kakariko Village and Bottle + Transition out of Kakariko Village + Transition into Lake Hylia + (x seconds late for owl or x seconds wasted in Zora's Domain)
---compared to
Route 4
Transition into Zora's Domain + Zora's Domain + Silver Scale + Transition to Lake Hylia + Bottle Collection Message + Transition to Zora's Domain + Zora's Domain (and king) + Transition to Lake Hylia.
The one of those that spends the least time will most likely be the fastest. I feel like it wouldn't be too hard to test the second one and compare it to the already made first one. Playing the game for the Silver Scale wouldn't have to be done optimally, and talking to the king is half of it.
It's very possible I made a logical flaw in here somewhere, as I rewrote it multiple times. I hope laying out this methodology at least helps people to think about the problem more clearly.
It would do well to make a test run of the Zora's Domain and Silver Scale route to compare to the Kakariko Village route. If route 4 is tested, we could compare it to the theoretical best of routes 1,2,3.
Also the bridge is impossible to get over without hookshot.
Owned :P
Thx for rubbing it in :P
I am more happy that progress is being made on OoT than I am bummed by being wrong anyways xD
Probably a stupid question: Can't we get to the Market quicker without grabbing the owl at Lake Hylia now?
So we still have to waste game time? In that case this route should be quickest:
- get sword, shield and stick (-50r)
- old forest escape
- peahat SS to ZR
- buy magic bean (-60r)
- through hyrule field to lake hylia (I hope you can make it to the peahat before night)
now there are two possibilities:
1:
- plant bean
- get golden scale (-80r)
- get ruto bottle
- get real bottle from king zora
- swim down ZR and get to castle town through hyrule field
2:
- get golden scale (-80r)
- get ruto bottle
- get real bottle from king zora
- go back to lake hylia through the warp
- plant bean
- fly with the owl to castle town
then buy the hylia shield (-160r) and travel foreward in time.
All other routes would keep you too long in ZD where time doesn't progress, so this is the only way to go. Where you get all the extra rupees that are needed for this, I don't know. That's your job to figure out. ;P
PS: If the GC-version really has less lag you should use it. It's not like people won't believe you, that you could have bested Guanos run without it. ;) Now is the time to change roms.
Edit: Afaik ruto bottle has been proven to be faster than Kakariko bottle, even with the time getting golden scale adds (even with the extra fishermens text as adault). Since it's only game time that matters that shouldn't change with this route.
I thought we were waiting for the owl to fly us to the marketplace?
Anyway, it's interesting how many new routes have come up with just these two finds.
What I'd like to see is calculations. It looks like the silver scale route has been ditched, though I haven't seen a post that clearly explains why. There's a TAS of the segment from the magic bean guy to Zora Fountain, so the time of day when entering Lake Hylia could easily be calculated. I'd just like to see these calculations carried out openly because there are really a ton of possible routes atm and it's hard to take everything into account when planning in the hidden.
What I'd like to see is calculations. It looks like the silver scale route has been ditched, though I haven't seen a post that clearly explains why.
Simple:
As far as I understand even with getting the magic bean we will still have to wait quite a long time for dawn. That means we have to avoid areas where time doesn't move at all costs, since those would prolong the wait. ZD is one of these areas and getting the silver scale would keep us quite a while in it.
The golden scale on the other hand only keeps us in the fishing pond for a short time and for most of the part in lake hylia, where time actually progresses.
Afaik the ruto bottle has been proven to be faster than the Kakariko bottle, so this is the only route that remains.
Though I would also really like to hear from the guys actually doing the TAS, what they think about these routes.
You guys really don't want to hear half way through the TAS that soemthing with your route is wrong. Swordless can tell you how much that sucks. ;)
Kuwaga wrote:
I thought we were waiting for the owl to fly us to the marketplace?
That was under debate the last time I checked. I think wha speaks for the owl is tht when it drops you off the draw bridge is alreay fuly lowered. What speaks against it is the talking to it and the short flying cutscene.
Don't know what testing revealed about it...
Old run went to Kakariko and from there to Lake Hylia, got a beatle, talked to the scarecrow and gathered some rupees. Then it took the owl because dawn was already quite near. The silver scale route goes to Zora River, then continues to Zora's Domain. Then gets the bottle, plants the bean, gets rupees (no, those are gotten from the diving game xD), maybe also a beatle. Then maybe crossing the field, maybe using the owl, maybe using the river route? (depends also on when you meet King Zora?)
Edit: I guess you'd leave using the river because reentering the lake area would be pointless.
I'm not an expert, but it doesn't seem so clear to me why that shouldn't be enough time spent without seeing any numbers. My point is I have a feeling that these routes seem way too close to just make estimates of what works and what doesn't without trying it out.
We are weighing game time spent in one trip across Hyrule Field, vs. one trip up Zora's river and the amount of game time spent grabbing the Ruto Bottle and getting back to Zora's Domain. The trip across Hyrule field is 55 seconds. Weigh that against the real time spent going up Zora's River and getting the bottle. Though if you're planting the magic bean that may add 10 seconds in your favor. If going up Zora's River and grabbing the bottle takes 45 seconds, you're still just as early as the current WIP, which is about 20 seconds too early.
I didn't really say it was entirely game time that matters. It's just one of the limiting factors. If a real time route is much faster, it is still worth considering, you just have to be aware of how much game time you will have to waste in exchange.
Slowking wrote:
That means we have to avoid areas where time doesn't move at all costs, since those would prolong the wait. ZD is one of these areas and getting the silver scale would keep us quite a while in it.
The golden scale on the other hand only keeps us in the fishing pond for a short time and for most of the part in lake hylia, where time actually progresses.
It depends very highly on how much time actually needs to be wasted. I believe Silver Scale is still a legitimate possibility.
I have to agree with Kuwaga.
The best way to show which route is faster is to set up some easy calculations.
Someone fill in the number of gametimeseconds & realtime seconds for each part of each route, then add them up.
For one route it would look like this:
Across Hyrule field from kokiri Forrest --> Zoras river (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Buying magic bean and exiting to Hyrule field (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Across Hyrule Field to Lake Hylia (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
getting rupies and entering fishingpond (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Getting Goldscale and leaving fishingpond (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Dive to bottle and exit to Zoras Domain (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Get real bottle from king and exit to Lake Hylia (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Planting bean, grabbing owl & watching cutscene (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
= X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds
A while ago we did a test run where we got the sword and used ESS to escape Kokiri. Sidehopped to Lake Hylia, got the golden scale and obtained the bottle and headed down Zora's River (after speaking to King Zora). It became dawn when we were halfway down ZR. Because of this I don't see how obtaining the golden scale is worthwhile, after all the distances in Lake Hylia and Zora's river is massive. I think it's best just to get the silver scale. The only question is where bugs will be obtained. Is there any good spots in ZR? If not it will either have to be obtained in the graveyard or in a grotto as AL.
Wouldn't a fish do as well? You can get one right in Zora's Domain. Opposed to bugs, a fish doesn't give you the Water Medal, the Nocturne of Shadows (and the Kokiri Emerald) when RBAing the important addresses. Shouldn't make any difference, or does it?
If there was a well positioned stone with bugs underneath on the way to the castle that could be faster though, I guess. Btw the fish are in the watery area at a circle of stones between the waterfall and the shop.
Edit: Ah, Nocturne is needed to get magic more quickly after obtaining the lullaby, right? Using the Lost Woods path to the Goron City would be much slower than using Nocturne, I guess. Sorry, I don't have the current route internalized at all...
(with fish instead of beatle): Hm, you could empty the bottle to get Nocturne and Lullaby, but no Prelude. Then warp away from the Poacher's Saw guy and then get Prelude and drop Nocturne. But that means an additional emptying and refilling of the bottle + 2 item switches. (On the other hand you could get the shield when leaving the graveyard after warping)
And you'd be forced to get magic before crossing the Gerudo bridge. So Lost Woods to Gerudo bridge, then getting magic, then warping to the Temple of Time becomes impossible. You'd have to get magic after Lost Woods, then use Serenade and go from there to the bridge.
I'm really totally confused as to how fast all of these options are though. Seems as if the beatle only route was a lot faster, but I really have got no clue. x_X
Could somebody please link me to the current route for the adult part?
A while ago we did a test run where we got the sword and used ESS to escape Kokiri. Sidehopped to Lake Hylia, got the golden scale and obtained the bottle and headed down Zora's River (after speaking to King Zora). It became dawn when we were halfway down ZR. Because of this I don't see how obtaining the golden scale is worthwhile, after all the distances in Lake Hylia and Zora's river is massive. I think it's best just to get the silver scale. The only question is where bugs will be obtained. Is there any good spots in ZR? If not it will either have to be obtained in the graveyard or in a grotto as AL.
Why would u head down Zoras River? Did u think that would be faster than swimming to Lake Hylia?
Here is the route I currently think is the fastest:
Across Hyrule field from kokiri Forrest --> Zoras river (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
[Getting 10 rupies] & buying magic bean and exiting to Hyrule field (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Exit Hyrule Field to Kakariko Village (X gametime seconds & Y realtime seconds)
Get cucobottle & exit to Hyrule Field (227 realtime seconds)
Cross Hyrule Fields to Lake Hylia (49 gametime seconds 52 realtime seconds)
Get rupies, get bug, plant bean then either grab owl or get to marketplace through Hyrule Fields. If there is enough gametime left until dawn, then crossing Hyrule Fields to marketplace is quicker.
The reason I think the cuco-bottle is faster even though gametime isn't spent in Kakariko village is because I assume the time spent gathering cucos etc is less than the time spent travelling in Zoras domain (twice with the silverscale route). The cucco-bottle saves realtime since you will not be travelling through Zoras River and you don't need to visit Lake Hylia twice.
If someone could fill in some estimates for the amount of seconds in some of these routes then it would be more easy to compare. I will look through the current WIP from Swordless & co tomorrow and edit my routes to include the time spent on similar parts of the run
The reason I think the cuco-bottle is faster even though gametime isn't spent in Kakariko village is because I assume the time spent gathering cucos etc is less than the time spent travelling in Zoras domain (twice with the silverscale route). The cucco-bottle saves realtime since you will not be travelling through Zoras River and you don't need to visit Lake Hylia twice.
You don't have to visit the lake twice with the silver scale route, just once to grab the bottle and plant the seed. You also don't have to travel across the field so much. And going down the river is a lot faster than going up. One problem is where to get the beatle from with that route, as you won't have an empty bottle when at the lake.
The reason I think the cuco-bottle is faster even though gametime isn't spent in Kakariko village is because I assume the time spent gathering cucos etc is less than the time spent travelling in Zoras domain (twice with the silverscale route). The cucco-bottle saves realtime since you will not be travelling through Zoras River and you don't need to visit Lake Hylia twice.
You don't have to visit the lake twice with the silver scale route, just once to grab the bottle and plant the seed. You also don't have to travel across the field so much. And going down the river is a lot faster than going up. One problem is where to get the beatle from with that route, as you won't have an empty bottle when at the lake.
For the silverscale u need to travel up Zoras River. The twice in Lake Hylia was meant for the Goldscale route.
Edit: The goldscale-route wastes the least time (wastes time as in spending realtime without spending gametime)
A while ago we did a test run where we got the sword and used ESS to escape Kokiri. Sidehopped to Lake Hylia, got the golden scale and obtained the bottle and headed down Zora's River (after speaking to King Zora). It became dawn when we were halfway down ZR. Because of this I don't see how obtaining the golden scale is worthwhile, after all the distances in Lake Hylia and Zora's river is massive. I think it's best just to get the silver scale. The only question is where bugs will be obtained. Is there any good spots in ZR? If not it will either have to be obtained in the graveyard or in a grotto as AL.
Edited:
That route is not very fast considering the recent finds.
The goldscale route should look like this:
Goldscale route: (g)
1g/1s/1c. get sword, shield and stick then old forrest escape to Hyrule Fields.
2g/2s/2c. Exit Hyrule Fields to Zoras River.
3g/3c. Get rupies and buy Beans, then exit Zoras River to Hyrule Fields
4g. Cross Hyrule Fields to Lake Hylia
5g. Get rupies, plant bean and enter fishingpond
6g. Get Golden Scale, Leave fishingpond.
7g. Get Bottle then dive to Zoras Domain
8g/6s. Get real bottle, then exit to Zoras River
9g/7s. Exit to Hyrule Fields
10g/8s. Enter Marketplace
