The glitch always jumps to open bus. The reason why the game can continue is just because it managed to get back to the normal code again, but the fact that it executed open bus makes it not different from the ACE run.
So you could say: "If you get the cloud you might as well get directly to the credits."
Warning: Might glitch to creditsI will finish this ACE soon as possible
(or will I?)
The glitch always jumps to open bus. The reason why the game can continue is just because it managed to get back to the normal code again, but the fact that it executed open bus makes it not different from the ACE run.
So you could say: "If you get the cloud you might as well get directly to the credits."
Makes sense. It's like if you did memory corruption in yellow then decided not to jump straight to the end of the game.
As the "Warps" category can be improved using the cloud, it should be, right? Otherwise, the "end game glitch" should obsolete it.
EDIT: The category semantics is a bit aggravating.
There should be the following categories:
1) "Warps" - Defined as fastest possible completion without skipping to credits directly.
2) "Game-End Glitch" - Directly warping to credits.
3) "All Stages" - Completing 100% of the game - or every single stage (no stage "skips"). The orb glitch making this a bit tricky... but the orb in this case seems to very much be a "stage skip" of sorts, and I think should thus be excluded.
The fact that the same method is used to achieve similar outcomes seems meaningless to me.
Quick example:
With Mega Man 1, you can now skip directly to the credits using recently found discovery. Now, let's say you could us that glitch to skip every single stage individually. Even if the you could skip directly from the first stage to the final boss,
In this case, I think both would be deserving of different categories as one skips directly to the credits and the other does not. Despite most of the game being skipped if you warped from stage 1 to the final boss, the credits aren't directly activated.
The kicker here being that I think "100%" in this case could be implemented so that people would be able to have a run that goes through the whole game.
I believe all games should have these 3 basic categories listed above.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
I believe all games should have these 3 basic categories listed above.
Category 2 won't be possible if the semi glitchless run ends up boring, since that's unvaultable.
Category 3 can't exactly happen for games which 100% is pretty much required to see the credits.
Also the problem with using cloud is that it would allow MasterJun april fool's run to technically obsolete the warps run. :P
The current warps run already uses incredibly sketchy memory corruption to skip at least one stage. This more or less follows the problems that surrounded the recent Mega Man TAS, that it's basically a less efficient version of the "game end glitch" one.
The current Mega Man "any%" TAS uses a glitch that can lead to ACE to skip three of the ten stages.
The current Mega Man "game end glitch" TAS uses the same glitch to jump to the credits.
The first one is less efficient. And the two current SMW TASes are very similar - one of them outright skips a stage due to a memory-corrupting item, and another one skips the game through similar memory-corruption.
The current warps run already uses incredibly sketchy memory corruption to skip at least one stage. This more or less follows the problems that surrounded the recent Mega Man TAS, that it's basically a less efficient version of the "game end glitch" one.
You can't get ACE with the orb glitch, is the difference.
The current warps run already uses incredibly sketchy memory corruption to skip at least one stage. This more or less follows the problems that surrounded the recent Mega Man TAS, that it's basically a less efficient version of the "game end glitch" one.
You can't get ACE with the orb glitch, is the difference.
It is similar enough though.
Technical aspects don't matter that much. What matter is how the viewer perceives it and the process of getting the orb and the process of initiating ACE aren't very different. The only difference is ACE is faster because it skips the whole game, not just one stage.
Skipping the entire game is certainly at first a wow-factor. Imagine showing it off a to a friend, game "X" done under 2 minutes. WOW! But then it doesn't become so fun anymore...
And that's where full game TASes come in. By showing off various glitches and superplay for a longer time period, it makes for more entertainment. If arbitrary code execution could be used to liven it up, then why not? It doesn't necessarily need to mean glitching through stages. It could be used for more WTH happened factors. Visual weirdness also works.
Skipping the entire game is certainly at first a wow-factor. Imagine showing it off a to a friend, game "X" done under 2 minutes. WOW! But then it doesn't become so fun anymore...
And that's where full game TASes come in. By showing off various glitches and superplay for a longer time period, it makes for more entertainment. If arbitrary code execution could be used to liven it up, then why not? It doesn't necessarily need to mean glitching through stages. It could be used for more WTH happened factors. Visual weirdness also works.
Well, if entertainment is a factor, I rather have an updated submission of this with ACE to liven it up. :P
You can't get ACE with the orb glitch, is the difference.
Technical aspects don't matter that much. What matter is how the viewer perceives it
What.
Let's use my KSS submission as an example. So you say that climbing on a ladder should be banned because it looks similar to the ladder glitch?
jlun2 wrote:
MasterJun
never
ever
capitalize
the
j
Warning: Might glitch to creditsI will finish this ACE soon as possible
(or will I?)
You can't get ACE with the orb glitch, is the difference.
Technical aspects don't matter that much. What matter is how the viewer perceives it
What.
Let's use my KSS submission as an example. So you say that climbing on a ladder should be banned because it looks similar to the ladder glitch?
jlun2 wrote:
MasterJun
never
ever
capitalize
the
j
Comparing the KSS submission to the SMW one is rather silly. The KSS one lacks any of the unusual, erratic movement patterns that the SMW one does. Which similarly bizarre, confusing movements lead to the memory corruption that creates items like the Orb, or if it's taken a step further, out-right ACE.
Masterjun's TAS of SMW on April Fool's might've been a joke but it being rejected was the real joke now that both Mega Man runs are featured alongside each other - because we now have a precedent that two runs may use the same glitch with one of them merely being more inefficient.
Both SMW runs being there is also a bit redundant due to the current non-ACE one using memory corruption to skip a stage, but at least only one level gets skipped, whereas the Mega Man one skips about three levels, over a quarter of the game.
The KSS one lacks any of the unusual, erratic movement patterns that the SMW one does. Which similarly bizarre, confusing movements lead to the memory corruption that creates items like the Orb, or if it's taken a step further, out-right ACE.
Memory corruption and ACE are not just a "step" apart, they are completely different things.
And as Patashu already said, you can't get to ACE with the orb glitch. Just looking the same is not a reason for obsoletion.
It's just like displaying the THE END screen while the game is still in level mode, which does not count as the game being beaten, even if it looks like it to the viewer. You can't just avoid looking at the technical details of glitches.
Warning: Might glitch to creditsI will finish this ACE soon as possible
(or will I?)
Memory corruption is memory corruption. Very, very rarely can ACE happen without it.
(though, for the Mega Man run the glitch was virtually the same, and for technical details they were very similar.)
Doesn't it look a little silly to have a run that skips all stages via glitches and a run that only skips "some" via glitches?
Doesn't it look a little silly to have a run that skips all stages via glitches and a run that only skips "some" via glitches?
Yes it does if the glitches are the same.
In the MM case, they are. Get tons of enemies to spawn, then I believe what has to happen is certain power-ups cause a game crash or something.
In the one that 'only" skips three stage the code executed calls for an end of the stage, not the end of the game.
But regardless. Why have two separate ones if one of them only skips less via glitchy methods instead of just not using said glitchy methods?
I said if the glitches are the same, not if they look the same, have a similar effect or have the same setup.
Viewer appeal is what actually matters for the most part, and no one seemed to have actually agreed that they should've been separate runs as far as the Mega Man ones go.
"any% no skips"
"any% skips 3/10 stages only"
"any% skips all stages"
The middle one is inefficient - skip all or none.
I said if the glitches are the same, not if they look the same, have a similar effect or have the same setup.
Viewer appeal is what actually matters for the most part, and no one seemed to have actually agreed that they should've been separate runs as far as the Mega Man ones go.
"any% no skips"
"any% skips 3/10 stages only"
"any% skips all stages"
The middle one is inefficient - skip all or none.
Not exactly, because one skips directly to credits, not just skipping all stages. In my mind (and others), it doesn't effectively beat the game just activates the credits. Which in some sense, I argue that just activating credits is just activating credits, hardly "completing" the game at all. Which is why I think having an "any%" run makes sense, a run that completes the game as fast as possible (regardless that the same method is used to skip directly to credits). I think in this case, adding a "100%" category might be an effective solution.
Again I argue:
"100%"
"any%"
"Warps to credits"
Unless the categories overlap too much (redundancy), which with Mega Man I could see a point in removing "any%" in some sense, but I still think it makes more sense to have 3 categories here.
For SMW possibly having "any% - no ACE" might make sense because I'd call this the weird redundancy situation if we had both "warps to credits" and say, the april fools' submission for SMW.
Getting cloud itself is not ACE (at least it doesn't have to be used, or well this is what causes redundancy if it is used).
Confusing...
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
Getting cloud itself is not ACE (at least it doesn't have to be used, or well this is what causes redundancy if it is used).
As masterjun says, getting the cloud is ACE, just that real time runners can't exploit it:
Masterjun wrote:
The glitch always jumps to open bus. The reason why the game can continue is just because it managed to get back to the normal code again, but the fact that it executed open bus makes it not different from the ACE run.
So you could say: "If you get the cloud you might as well get directly to the credits."
(Similarly, real time runners of Megaman [NES] can try to use the crazy, level skipping glitches that are used in Megaman TASes, and even if they get ones that are technically ACE, they can't do ACE applications of it because they don't have superhuman control over the input - and you could ask 'make a Megaman TAS that uses the RTA route instead of ACE' and be answered with 'well, when you do the glitch in RTA you have ACE anyway, so may as well use it')
I said if the glitches are the same, not if they look the same, have a similar effect or have the same setup.
Viewer appeal is what actually matters for the most part, and no one seemed to have actually agreed that they should've been separate runs as far as the Mega Man ones go.
"any% no skips"
"any% skips 3/10 stages only"
"any% skips all stages"
The middle one is inefficient - skip all or none.
Not exactly, because one skips directly to credits, not just skipping all stages. In my mind (and others), it doesn't effectively beat the game just activates the credits. Which in some sense, I argue that just activating credits is just activating credits, hardly "completing" the game at all. Which is why I think having an "any%" run makes sense, a run that completes the game as fast as possible (regardless that the same method is used to skip directly to credits). I think in this case, adding a "100%" category might be an effective solution.
Again I argue:
"100%"
"any%"
"Warps to credits"
Unless the categories overlap too much (redundancy), which with Mega Man I could see a point in removing "any%" in some sense, but I still think it makes more sense to have 3 categories here.
For SMW possibly having "any% - no ACE" might make sense because I'd call this the weird redundancy situation if we had both "warps to credits" and say, the april fools' submission for SMW.
Getting cloud itself is not ACE (at least it doesn't have to be used, or well this is what causes redundancy if it is used).
Confusing...
A run that glitch-warps to the credits (which can supposedly happen without ACE) and a run that glitch-warps stages of the game is wholly redundant.
I believe the point of dual categories when it comes to an ACE credits run and a non-ACE credits run is to see the rest of the game, not just see a little bit more.
If A Link to the Past had an ACE glitch that could be activated in the first room of the game should it be accepted with the current multidirectional glitch abusing run?
Of course there are exceptions, such as when games like Super Metroid appear and there's too many different ways to reach the ending in a bugged-up manner. How the game passed QA I'll never know, lol.
I have a simple question, I read the whole thread but couldn't find an anwser : Is ACE needed to get the cloud, or is it getting the cloud that leads to ACE?
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
