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Posted: 6/30/2007 12:28 PM
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upthorn
He/Him
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Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802
Sega TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TASer of 2007
DarkKobold wrote:
Upthorn: I've considered it, but the problem is that you'd have to wait a whole extra round for each attack that slows you down. In battle 3, Mae is mainly used so Max doesn't get surrounded, and can continue on without fighting.
But each progressive round would take less time Consider: 6 rounds of 10 enemy actions versus 10 rounds where one enemy is destroyed each round: with 6 rounds of 10 enemy actions, you get 60 enemy actions + 10 player actions for a total of 70 actions. With one enemy destroyed each turn, you get 65 actions total, resulting in a shorter combat overall. The more enemies there are to begin with, the greater this effect will be.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Posted: 6/30/2007 3:43 PM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
upthorn : you forgot an important factor, it seems that the computer "think" before acting, it seems to cause a delay more important that just turn number. (Which is another argument to kill more enemies). Another factor is the cursor movement, it takes times, if you kill enemies, the cursor wont have to go Up right to a enemies, then down left all the way of the battle field, then return somewhere else. If it's a big battle field less enemies means less movement cursor.
Posted: 6/30/2007 5:00 PM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
What you could do is make a savestate just before the first battle. Now you would make a test run for running and a test run for fighting. Basically move to the same squares, but Run A does not attack while Run B attacks any enemies. This could be a way to give a rough comparison for what would be faster, running or fighting.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 6/30/2007 6:20 PM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
well i think it would be better with the third battle with Mae
Posted: 7/3/2007 12:31 AM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
I can and will do try it... The thing you are forgetting is that I'm leaving the battle early. So, it may take 10 turns to kill ten enemies, but if I can leave the battle in 5 turns, that is way less moves that I have to wait for. Every time I stop moving to kill an enemy, that is N-1 extra enemy turns to wait through. Shining Force 1 has counter attacks, but they may only be post promotion. If so, that will speed up the time attack later...
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 7/6/2007 10:15 PM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
Well it was just in the beginning, I was just wondering if you could past the 6 knights at the end of the level, but then again, if you kill enemies on your way, it removes x turns that the enemy won't get. I think it could save times. I'm not currently able to test anything (I got a lot of work to do, and I don't have time for a couple of weeks) but I'll be sure to watch the video and to give my feedback, I don't know that much about Shining Force 1, I got through it a couple of time, but I'm sure used to Shining Force 2, which is the same battle engine. Anyway you have my full support in the completion of this game :)
Posted: 7/9/2007 8:25 PM
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LagDotCom
Joined: 3/7/2006
Posts: 720
Location: UK
Small question: Would it be faster to get Gong (by Egressing from the first/second battle) to have more people to fight with, for the first chapter? Oh, also, would a non-crit from Max have killed the Sniper in the 4th battle? Seemed like a crit for 29 was overkill.
Voted NO for NO reason
Posted: 7/10/2007 2:47 AM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
Is gong that good, and most of the time it's just running to the end. So I don't think it would be faster. Also there's a cost to exit the battle, talk to Gong, then get back in the battle, and having twice the turns, I doubt it would be faster.
Posted: 7/10/2007 5:05 AM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
I guess it has been quite some time since I posted a WIP. Here is up through defeating Elliot. I need to redo the entire battle, however. You will note with this work in progress that I score one double critical, and multitudes of single critical/double hits. Had nothing to do with luck, I promise you :) http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/433836587/Shining%20Force%20%28U%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 7/10/2007 5:08 AM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
LagDotCom wrote:
Small question: Would it be faster to get Gong (by Egressing from the first/second battle) to have more people to fight with, for the first chapter? Oh, also, would a non-crit from Max have killed the Sniper in the 4th battle? Seemed like a crit for 29 was overkill.
I've actually thought about Gong. Since I am not being driven by a cart, I could get Gong without using Egress before the first battle, which has the possibility of speeding things up. Gong has good movement in the mountains, which would help destroy all the extra turns taken by goblins. However.... I may have to kill him off in later levels. You will see in the current WIP, a lot of levels will quickly become "walk to the boss, hit for massive damage, ignore all enemies."
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 7/10/2007 4:46 PM
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LagDotCom
Joined: 3/7/2006
Posts: 720
Location: UK
Yeah, I realise that, but I think he could be worth it if purely just for Battle #4 - lots of little enemies to kill.
Voted NO for NO reason
Posted: 7/11/2007 6:39 AM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
Well, I do need to completely restart the TAS. I've found massive problems with my first version, embarrassing problems at that. First and foremost, I didn't realize it is possible to turn off battle messages. That will save quite a bit of time. Second, the power ring in the cave is absolutely going to be essential in later levels. It raises attack of 1 character by 15 each use. There is the possibility that it will crack, but that won't happen :) Gong takes a total of 19.4 seconds to acquire. Additionally, I estimate that he will cost time in battles 1,5,7. He will definitely save time in battles 4 and 8. 2,3, and 6 are a toss up. Less attacks by enemies, but the additional turns and time required to move him....
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 7/13/2007 5:34 PM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
I had a major breakthrough last night! I can choose and predict battle order!!!! I finally broke the last code I expected to be the hardest. Now, while I can select a battle order, note that not every order that could exist in the real world can exist in the game. In fact, the game only has 2^16 different selectable battle orders, and some repeat. Therefore, when doing the TAS, I am still going to be limited by in game restrictions. The big savings will be in minimizing cursor movement, and maximizing the number of times an enemy is killed before it gets its turn in a round. I've determined Gong is worthless. His movement sucks and he would not help until the 3rd battle, at which point I could get Gort, which I am currently considering. However, for everyone curious, here is Gong in the first battle, and second battle, showing how far he lags behind. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/849079145/WithGong.gmv Now, for a little bragging. Using the code I developed for determining battle order, I managed to come up with the perfect battle 1. First Round: Max goes after goblin 7, moves into position, and gets the quick kill. Second Round: Everyone goes, except Max, goblin 5, and the knight. Max moves in, and kills goblin 5 before it's turn. Knight moves to strike Max. Third round: Max goes first, killing the knight, and ending the battle. The chances for having the second round battle order turn out perfect is 0.006% Here is the result. The battle ends ~62 seconds faster than my first attempt. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1801294615/testqueue.gmv
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 7/14/2007 5:46 AM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
awesome :)
Posted: 7/14/2007 6:06 PM
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maTO
Skilled player (1512)
Joined: 4/28/2005
Posts: 240
Location: Finland
Sega TASer of 2009
Great! This is what I have been waiting most. My non-serious attempt took 5:25 (I suck at luck manipulation) but we'll see if you can go under 3 hours. It will be a hell of a work but best luck and hopefully you have lots of free time :D Waiting to see Sword of Light's "Bolt 2 madness" :o~ Oh, and save state after each chapter would be a nice service. edit: You managed to escape town earlier. I wondered in your first try if that was done half-heartedly...
Projects: Warlock, Ren & Stimpy (impr) / Generations Lost (impr.)
Posted: 7/16/2007 3:46 PM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
WIP update for battle 2. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1630225948/testqueue.gmv This new method produces amazing results, and it really makes things speed up. This video is 2m33s faster than the original video! However, the new technique takes a really long time. Every round in which an enemy dies, or a level is gained, the battle queue list needs to be regenerated, which takes MATLAB 3-5 minutes. Some interesting notes: The dwarf at the bridge always takes 2 turns in a row when he is alone. This is to remove having to bring the cursor to him more than once every 2 rounds. Additionally, all battle group moves are clustered to minimize cursor movement. Max is only attacked once the entire battle. This was done to move the dwarf out of the way, so Max can walk further on his turn.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 7/16/2007 5:27 PM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (979)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
Location: Sweden
Arcade TAS of 2023 Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021
>Every round in which an enemy dies, or a level is gained, the battle queue list needs to be regenerated, which takes MATLAB 3-5 minutes. I love the sound of this - that you're using matlab to simulate the game, not that it takes 5 minutes. And the movie looks great. Please go on.
Posted: 7/16/2007 7:41 PM
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Bablo
Player (224)
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 399
Please go on.
<adelikat> I've been quoted with worse
Posted: 7/16/2007 9:17 PM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
Wow that was amazing, I hope it will be possible to do the same on Shining Force 2 :P
Posted: 7/17/2007 7:33 AM
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Atma
Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
ZeXr0 wrote:
Wow that was amazing, I hope it will be possible to do the same on Shining Force 2 :P
I did a short few battle test a while back, from what i experienced, it wont be anywhere near as manipulatable as sf1. As it stood, you could double hit every turn if you let the frame counter roll over, but other than that doing things didn't seem to affect the rng. turn order could be slightly manipulated, but turn order+avoiding damage was extremely over the top without actually knowing or watching the routine.
Posted: 7/18/2007 1:37 AM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
Well all that remains is that we need to translate Assembly into something more readable ;) Or read it from the emulator and then we can do the same thing as in shining force 1
Posted: 7/18/2007 2:39 AM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
ZeXr0: reading the assembly is actually the LAST part of what needs to be done, and in fact, is the easiest by far, if you do the steps in order. I can help with this, if you are willing to follow these steps. Step one: locating values that were relevant to the current attack. The most important thing you can find is the total damage dealt, whether it be a double attack or critical. Additionally, things that effect the attack, such as keys pressed, or frame counters need to be found in memory. Step 2. Locate the frame(s) were this calculation takes place. Step 3. Get a normal play video going, and get a critical, a double hit, a normal hit, and an enemy miss and hit. Step 4. Decompile for the exact frame(s) were the calculation takes place, for each of the different parts. I.E. Pause. Turn tracer on. Advance One frame. Turn tracer off. Step 5. Search for the memory locations in step one. See where and when they are used. Step 6. Play with memory locations referenced adjacent to those found in step 5. (Upthorn's Gens doesn't currently support this, so use a different version of Gens) See what happens. For example, I found memory addresses in shining force that had the game saying I was doing 100 damage when I only did 6. I found memory addresses the multiplied my attack by any value. Knowing where these get set, and how they work, you have already won half the battle against the code. Step 7. Read backwards through the assembly. For this, you may need a full decompile of the rom. (the gens decompiler is good, but it makes mistakes, and doesn't show all branches.) http://emureview.ztnet.com/sega/gentech.htm has a full Genesis Decompiler. Let me know if you want to do this. I think figuring out the assembly is far more interesting than actually doing the time attack.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 7/18/2007 3:36 AM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
Also, an update. Battle 3 is completed. I am now an entire 5 minutes shorter than my last attempt. Additionally, one unnoticeable change to battle 2 saves 10 seconds. I do pickup Gort. I believe he will help immensely for battles 4 and 6,7,8, and only hurt a little in battle 5. So, a few interesting facts about Battle 3. I get attacked 3 times. This is unavoidable. Specifically, the first dwarf attack may seem out of place. This is because a battle queue that contains all players at the beginning, and still clusters enemies correctly does not exist. In fact, here is a little fun math for you. The are a possibility of 65536 different non-unique battle queues allowed in game. However, mathematically speaking, with 18 different characters on screen, there are 6.5 quintillion (10^15) different permutations of orders that are possible. Thus, I have to select one from only 0.000000001% of the actual ones I'd like to be able to select from. (Additionally, some are repeated, making it even less). The one dwarf attack at the end of round one is a best case scenario. Additionally, at the end of the battle, I take advantage of the AI. The AI is stupid. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/62170746/testqueue.gmv
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 7/25/2007 5:47 AM
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DarkKobold
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Arcade TASer of 2010 PCE TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 Lucky TAS of 2009 Lucky TAS of 2007
So this WIP is a huge jump from the last one, and now goes through battle 10. Unfortunately, I'm none too happy with battles 8 and 10. I need to really reconsider how to do them. Additionally, for chapter 3 and 4, Gort is becoming extremely unnecessary. Should I let him die in battle 8, to save time? http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1891229879/testqueue.gmv Any suggestions would be appreciated. Oh, and one fun note. The enemy never attacks in Chapter 2, until battle 8. The tight quarters of battle 8 make it difficult to avoid the enemy turns. Additionally, the agility of all my team makes it impossible to manipulate double turns, which are used consistently in the run.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Posted: 7/25/2007 5:12 PM
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ZeXr0
Joined: 8/27/2006
Posts: 883
I'll take a look at this in 6 hours, as soon as I get home. Have you consider getting the power potion in the last village in the first chapter ? And getting the speed ring before the first battle of the first chapter might be a good thing. If you can use the power ring while it is equipped, you should think of equipping it to mae, you could save a couple of double hit because you'll hit hard enought to kill some enemies with a critical hit. In the last battle of chapter 2, couldn't you just kill the Ghoul ? It also might be faster to buy new weapon. The second battle of the second chapter. Wouldn't it be faster to not attack the first enemy with Mae and let Gort attack the zombie ? That way you would save an attack and a double hit.
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