Movie Super Puyo Puyo 2 obsoletes Kirby's Avalanche despite looking completely different except gameplay.
Just because "Kirby's Avalanche" is pretty much an "Amercianized" version of "Super Puyo Puyo 2" doesn't mean they are the same game. =/
Infact, with that logic, a "Doki Doki Panic" TAS can be submitted to obsolete the SMB2 run.
This question was already set back in 2009:
mmbossman wrote:
I'm setting this back to "new" status so that more discussion can take place regarding whether we need this movie and Kirbys Avalanche published
There were 2 answers that agreed with obsoletion:
Post #211052Post #212110
And one that was against was late to the show by 2 weeks:
Post #213250
...despite of it being in the bench for 2.5 months.
So the audience already had a decision and I don't see any need to revise it, since anytime later enough people may appear to contradict ANY decision, it doesn't mean it must be revised each time.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Movie Super Puyo Puyo 2 obsoletes Kirby's Avalanche despite looking completely different except gameplay.
Just because "Kirby's Avalanche" is pretty much an "Amercianized" version of "Super Puyo Puyo 2" doesn't mean they are the same game. =/
Infact, with that logic, a "Doki Doki Panic" TAS can be submitted to obsolete the SMB2 run.
This question was already set back in 2009:
mmbossman wrote:
I'm setting this back to "new" status so that more discussion can take place regarding whether we need this movie and Kirbys Avalanche published
There were 2 answers that agreed with obsoletion:
Post #211052Post #212110
And one that was against was late to the show by 2 weeks:
Post #213250
...despite of it being in the bench for 2.5 months.
So the audience already had a decision and I don't see any need to revise it, since anytime later enough people may appear to contradict ANY decision, it doesn't mean it must be revised each time.
I thought we had a vault tier for runs of similar games and their ports. :o
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Where it says vault can have different region versions at once? Or you mean one in moons and another in vault?
I was referring to the fact that the audience already had a say, and that's what it decided exclusively - that they are similar enough while one of them is better.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Where it says vault can have different region versions at once? Or you mean one in moons and another in vault?
I was referring to the fact that the audience already had a say, and that's what it decided exclusively - that they are similar enough while one of them is better.
I meant the later, and more about this line from the article:
Its purpose is to fulfill the site's goal of being a TAS records site, and a central repository of tool-assisted literature and information.
For example, if a Doki Doki Panic TAS were ever to be submitted, it would be placed in the vault and the SMB2 run would remain on the moon/star tier, or vice versa*.
*Or both on the same tier, depending on the audience's decision.
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris
Again,
Puyo Puyo (and Dr. Robonick's Mean Bean Machine and Kirby's Avalanche) do NOT have the offset mechanic. What that means is that an attack from the opponent or your own attack, can be countered if you remove (pop) Puyos.
Puyo Puyo 2 (Tsu) and any Puyo game after, have this mechanic.
Puyo Puyo, Dr. Robonick's Mean Bean Machine and Kirby's Avalanche are NOT the same as Puyo Puyo 2.
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war.
The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
Puyo Puyo (and Dr. Robonick's Mean Bean Machine and Kirby's Avalanche) do NOT have the offset mechanic. What that means is that an attack from the opponent or your own attack, can be countered if you remove (pop) Puyos.
Puyo Puyo 2 (Tsu) and any Puyo game after, have this mechanic.
Puyo Puyo, Dr. Robonick's Mean Bean Machine and Kirby's Avalanche are NOT the same as Puyo Puyo 2.
Outstanding. The return list glitching suprised me a lot Oo
The luck manipulation was stellar as usual. Amazing how such an unforgiving RNG can be manipulated so well.
I know it was unintentional, but major style points for glitching Viron's name to V ron. Much cooler XD
I was a proponent of a glitched run obsoleting the published movie. But that is when I thought it would be just glitching a few orbs into the inventory. This skips most of the game. As such, it deserves its own category.
Encoding in process.
However the ratings these 2 have got kind of proves the branches need merging.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Given the number of people who rated and the ratings themselves make both the movies invalid for moon tier,
It is possible for movies to be placed in moon tier regardless of ratings.
Anyway, Vault tier is supposed to be for fastest speed records, by any means (short of "cheating", whatever that means). So, if a movie is not a fastest speed record, then there is no choice but to make it a moon, by those rules.
I also noted Thread #14566: Confusion regarding what's in the Vault. Tell us if there are any more such movies.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3573)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
A point that might be missed in this this thread: Moon tier is determined by submisison results NOT post-publication ratings. Currently we do not go back and change tiers based on how a publication did in the ratings.
That being said, movies that pre-date the tiered system were in fact done by ratings in order to retrofit them into the new system. Movies were picked to be vault based on rating. However, poorly rated movies that didn't fit into the vault were kept as moons since there is no unpublication system and there is no room for them in the vault.
In the case of DW3, it was likely an oversight, but I could make a case that the unglitched movie serves as a "full completion" type movie (and may have been thinking that back when we were moving hundreds of movies around)? But more thinking about it would have led me to keeping the unglitched in the moons tier. At the time, I would not have thought of the idea fixing through one obsoleting other. That is an intriguing notion that has been brought up here, and probably the lesser of three evils.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Yes, as long as it's not "they obsolete each other to be both got rid of".
>_>
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Hm. adelikat suggests the antithesis of retroactively removing a movie from obsoleted status. That is, retroactively placing a movie in obsoleted status.
I'm not sure that the system needs to be fixed by retroactively obsoleting movies. However, my opinion is that it is all right to reassign movies between Vault and Moon after publication, not as a tier policy, but to balance Vault and Moon out. There are, as of this post, 723 Moon publications and 497 Vault publications. Since the beginning of August, 2013, there have been 32 Moon publications (excluding those that are now in Stars) and 11 Vault publications. After the last Gruefood-to-Vault movement, there have been consistently more Moon publications than Vault publications and that will cause the gap to grow wider.
Anyway, regarding DW3 and Takeshi no Chousenjou, if there are no problems, I will reassign them to Moon tier now because they are not the fastest speed record. Their status can be changed later if there are any further decisions.
Edit: I found a few more Vault pairs which are in question:
[1621] NES EarthBound Beginnings (Japan) "warp glitch" by pirohiko in 23:09.56[1302] NES EarthBound Beginnings (Prototype) by Nitrodon in 47:56.08[980] NES Snow Bros. "2 players" by Randil in 13:56.85[2267] NES Snow Bros. "1 player" by asdfgary in 13:12.61
EarthBound Zero is arguable, since the two different versions can be considered two different games. Snow Bros. not so much.
So if I understand correctly, the main question is what should happen to a movie that is published in Moon tier and does not qualify for Vault tier, if after several months it turns out to get low ratings from viewers.
Because if a Vault or Moon movie gets high ratings it can simply be moved to Moon or Star respectively; and if a Star movie gets low ratings it can simply be moved to Moon.
Looking over the current Moon list, there are 18 movies that rank between 5.5 and 5.9 inclusive; there are four movies that rank between 5.0 and 5.4; and there are two movies that rank 4.9 and below.
SNES Aladdin...
This movie is obsoleted by that one, even though the former movie is faster. The latter movie adds an additional constraint, i.e. "all red gems", and both are in Moon Tier. So rather than having 1240 obsolete 1130, I think it would be more suitable to have both exist side-by-side, and give 1240 the additional label "All gems" or "100%".
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
For now I agree about unobsoleting the fastest branch for Vault and marking the other as "all gems". More opinions?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Unobsoleted both, Aladdin for Moons, and Rangers for Vault.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6439
Location: The land down under.
thatguy wrote:
The reason for this is that Pokemon RBY seems to have set a precedent that, when both save corruption and non-save memory corruption can be used to glitch to the end in a game
Correction: Pokemon Blue (U) is completely different from Pokemon Yellow/Red (U) in terms of glitching the game to end quickly.
Pokemon Blue CANNOT be completed with a time of 0:00 only Yellow and Red can.
If you bring up the argument of Pokemon Red/Green (J) and Pokemon Yellow (U), you still will be wrong.
Edit: I fixed it up a bit. I remembered something.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Correction: Pokemon Blue (U) is completely different from Pokemon Yellow/Red (U) in terms of glitching the game to end quickly.
Pokemon Blue CANNOT be completed with a time of 0:00 only Yellow and Red can.
Actually I found this in gia's submission comments for the first save-corruption movie:
"Yes, the three games can be finished with this exact same route."
Go check it out for yourself.
As someone who's never played Pokemon, I'm curious how similar these games actually are. Would it be helpful to list them all as the same game, with subtitles to determine color? Or are they too different still to warrant that?
Red and Blue are practically identical for TAS purposes, since the only difference between them is the random encounter rates, which are mostly luck-manipulated away anyway. Yellow is a bit more debatable; there are a few different in-game events and a couple of glitches from Red/Blue were removed.
But this is kind of getting off the topic of my original post, which was about Earthbound...
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6439
Location: The land down under.
It's your own fault for bringing up Pokemon.
An automatic confusion ball for the 0:00.
Also Team Rocket is Yellow only. Which if it was a "no major glitches" TAS would waste time compared to Blue. That's why it's Separated.
Also if you want to be smart go ahead and obsolete the current Blue tas with a 0:00 oh wait it's mythological.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
