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Posted: 3/22/2005 5:31 PM
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TheAxeMan
Ambassador, Experienced player (709)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Watched mookish's run, it's great, very smart. For some reason, I was in the mood to run some numbers, so I made this spreadsheet based on the formulas and numbers in Ben Siron's FAQ on gameFaqs. (FF Faqs) Ok, here are the raw results: (openoffice.org spreadsheet) On the weapons sheet you can plug in different weapons to see their stats. But the quick ideas: -Because of the starting stats and damage calcs, fighters have by far the highest fighting damage output on low levels. Trailing second is the red mage. The fighter gets strength every level, but red mage only has a 62.5% chance, so his damage could be slightly increased by manipulating a strength increase every level. -A black mage gets Lvl3 magic one level earlier and lvl4 magic two levels earlier. But I think mookish showed what is best, the pyntie-hat is unfortunately useless. One possibility would be obtaining the bane spell which could allow all bosses past that point to be beaten much more easily; the black mage would become a one-man killing machine. But level 12 is clearly not going to be reached until the end if at all. -Due to their armor, the Astos, Lich and Kraken fights will be almost entirely based on critical hits and magic. -It may be worthwhile to purchase small knives instead of or in addition to the rapiers starting out. Why? Small knife has 5 more +hit% which means more hits and therefore more critical hits. When all non-crits are just one damage anyway, this is better. By level 5 but the hit difference would bump up the number of hits (mookish already has better weapons at this point though) -It's probably not worthwhile to kill anyone off. At least not until beating Kraken (blue dragon is pretty easy). Once the bane sword is in hand, only one person is needed. Levelups have a pretty small impact on fighting damage, it's almost always better to have more bodies since there will be more chances to get the critical hits which will kill Astos, Kraken and Lich. The only exception would be if killing one person off gave everyone else more hits. I had one more idea which you probably know. For useless actions wouldn't the fastest command be run? In a non-runnable fight it would just spit out the can't run message but no animation.
Posted: 3/22/2005 8:35 PM
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mookish
Former player
Joined: 3/17/2005
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle, WA
TheAxeMan wrote:
I had one more idea which you probably know. For useless actions wouldn't the fastest command be run? In a non-runnable fight it would just spit out the can't run message but no animation.
Yeah, I had that one written down as well...the attack animation on bosses is severely extended. Once I pick up the bane sword, I'll be able to find the exact frame where it kicks in, reload, and have everyone else run prior (if the bane isn't the first command sent through). Should save me a few frames here and there. Little update...the rerun actually went a bit faster this go-around...I'm almost glad I accidentally wiped my first run. Unfortunately, the NPC's in the earth cave (stupid bats) gave me a bit of a problem, as well as yet another unavoidable ambush vs. shadows (I'm beginning to think it's my lack of levels that is causing that...), but I'm still almost half a minute ahead...picked up the ruby in 25:30 this swing. I'll be working more on it today. And after I finish this run, I might give a try to 3 fighters/black mage...just to see if picking up level 3 spells any earlier helps me in the long run or not.
To be considered a country, you need to have a beer. Sure, it helps to have an airport or nuclear weapons, but at the very least....you need a beer.
Posted: 3/24/2005 12:03 AM
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mookish
Former player
Joined: 3/17/2005
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle, WA
Well, scratch the whole "run" being the fastest action. That MAY be true, but the problem is this: Send 4 fight commands through, and say I find a good round on frame ****38...with one useless red mage not doing anything. Reload, send 3 fight commands and one run command through on frame 38, and the effect is much different. Guess I'm sticking to just all out attacking.
To be considered a country, you need to have a beer. Sure, it helps to have an airport or nuclear weapons, but at the very least....you need a beer.
Posted: 3/24/2005 12:08 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
You could keep trying different combinations and times.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 3/24/2005 5:52 AM
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mookish
Former player
Joined: 3/17/2005
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle, WA
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
You could keep trying different combinations and times.
Actually, I did give that a try with Lich this time around...I did a little comparison with having all 4 attack, vs. all 3 fighters attacking, and the red mage running. No major difference. Usually, by the time I found a frame where I wasn't killed by ICE2 and got one or two criticals in...both equaled out in terms of frame count. It's sort of like the unavoidable shadow fights I've come across. I found ONE combination where the shadows don't ambush you (has to be 5 of them, no other group works), and between either letting 3 (the min. number) ambush you and losing those 300 frames, or running the fight prior over and over for 300 frames...sometimes, I come out ahead...and sometimes, its better if I let them ambush me...it actually saves time. Weird combinations...but oh well...time is still looking awfully good. 41 minutes in, and I just hit the Ice Cave. I just hope I can avoid those unfleeable fights, or I won't be able to hit 1:30 (I've only had 2 fights so far...the pair of wizards to get the crown, and the pair inside the earth cave)
To be considered a country, you need to have a beer. Sure, it helps to have an airport or nuclear weapons, but at the very least....you need a beer.
Posted: 3/24/2005 8:36 PM
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qbproger
Joined: 12/7/2004
Posts: 69
wow, keep up the good work.
Posted: 3/25/2005 9:07 AM
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mookish
Former player
Joined: 3/17/2005
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle, WA
Remind me to keep my mouth shut from now on. I "was" going to finish under 1:30 this go-around...until I hit ToFR....5 fights in a row went like this: Gas Dragons x2 Phantom Zombie Dragons x4 Frost Giants x2 + Frost Wolves x6 Worm 3 cheers for unfleeable battles...it'll still be a semi-impressive run, but level 10 is all but out the window now. Question is, do I submit this one, or start over and hope for some better luck avoiding those unfleeable fights.
To be considered a country, you need to have a beer. Sure, it helps to have an airport or nuclear weapons, but at the very least....you need a beer.
Posted: 3/25/2005 9:08 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Fix it so you don't have those battles.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 3/25/2005 10:26 AM
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Paulygon
Joined: 4/6/2004
Posts: 74
Location: California
It's been mentioned that you're very constrained in what you fight, since the steps-to-fight and the enemies fought are predetermined. See this and a few posts following for a refresher. In the case of the latest run being working on, if the route has been "perfected", then starting over and repeating the same exact movements is going to result in a severe case of déjà-vu where battles are concerned. :-} To change the fights, the route will have to be changed. Another way is by taking advantage of some tiles that you walk on (not damage zones) that have a no-fight property, yet will also advance the deterministic psuedo-randomness used to determine fights. Walking on those when you would have normally gotten into a fight will cause that fight to be avoided and will affect the remainder of the battles. It may be worth using FF Hackster to see where these tiles can be found. For example, some of the grassy areas near Coneria and the elemental altars. Of course, you'd have to come across these comparatively rare tiles at just the right time so that walking over them in such a strategic way wouldn't look too bad (it will almost certainly require walking extra steps, which will be noticeable). If you can change the fight at one point, you'll have to play through the rest of the game to see how subsequent fights have differed.. definitely not very practical, unless maybe such an option is exercised late in the game.
Posted: 3/25/2005 10:38 AM
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Ouzo
Former player
Joined: 8/15/2004
Posts: 422
Location: Minnesota
If I may return to your test run, is there any reason why you got the ribbon? I didn't see anywhere you used it.
Posted: 3/25/2005 2:33 PM
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Inzult
Active player (435)
Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada
NES TAS of 2021
It would be pretty hot if it were better known how to affect the steps to encounter. Doing something like leaving a fiend's layer seems to change it, as pointed out by Paulygon after the Kraken fight in my demo video. That is all I know. Otherwise, I'd advise runing into imps or something (else that Paulygon noted) before getting into to the ToFR
Posted: 3/25/2005 8:12 PM
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mookish
Former player
Joined: 3/17/2005
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle, WA
Thanks, Paulygon...I went to gamefaqs and did some reading about how the encounter system works...I think I'm going to map out my first run and this new run, and see where the changes came into play. I probably had more unavoidable encounters this time around than imaginable...just off the top of my head, I can count of at least 10 (Shadow ambushes, Ghosts, Zombulls, Wizards, Frost Giants/Wolves, and Waters), and that was before I even hit ToFR. I'd like to cut that number down. As for the ribbon...I eliminated one from my run (in the sea shrine), but it's purely for preventative maintenance. I want my character with the bane sword to have it, just in case when I run a frame that SHOULD kill an enemy, they get an action off, say...like XXXX or Glare, that kills him instead. Considering I grab the Wizard Staff anyways, a few extra frames for that doesn't bother me much. I hate to add any steps to the run though, if for nothing else, looking tacky...I had to right before the ToFR anyways...and this is something I noticed: No matter what, if you kill Kary with bane...the next fight ALWAYS is an ambush. Go figure...I tried modifying the prior 2 fights to Kary, as well as finding another frame where bane kicked in, and it was the same result. I remember that happening on my test run, and it sure as shit happened here as well. Guess it's back to the drawing board.
To be considered a country, you need to have a beer. Sure, it helps to have an airport or nuclear weapons, but at the very least....you need a beer.
Posted: 4/10/2005 9:56 PM
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qbproger
Joined: 12/7/2004
Posts: 69
any news on this run?
Posted: 4/11/2005 8:18 AM
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mookish
Former player
Joined: 3/17/2005
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle, WA
Sorry, been tied up for the last week with another project (not run-related)...my apologies. I've been doing some reading regarding the encounter list/protocol, and I'm working on some varied runs to see if moving an extra step here and there wouldn't change some of the unavoidable fights (i.e. the two sets of ghosts in the sea shrine as an example). Let's just say I've made two runs at this game...the third should be the one, and I won't be doing a 4th :)
To be considered a country, you need to have a beer. Sure, it helps to have an airport or nuclear weapons, but at the very least....you need a beer.
Posted: 4/14/2005 3:46 AM
(Edited: 4/14/2005 6:19 AM)
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mookish
Former player
Joined: 3/17/2005
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle, WA
Alright...after doing a lot of tedious research...I think I'm ready for my last run at this game. Thanks to Rincewind's encounter listing, I was able to analyze my 2nd run (albeit somewhat incomplete), and make a sketchy map based on where an extra encounter would help avoid certain fights. Most places, one extra encounter would help matters...and some others, 3-4 are required to get my run in-sync. I'll give *edit* Squaresoft (duh...dumb moment on my part) */edit* credit...whether they designed this or not, they did a great job making a low-level speed run a pain in the ass. I'll have to be creative, but I "think" I can avoid every required random fight in the game. I may still have a few ambushes with shadows due to my low level (and the fact that an ambush may be faster than setting up the ONE non-ambush shadow encounter I've been able to find), but other than that, I think I'm ready. If everything goes as planned, I should have it done sometime this weekend...but then again, nothing ever goes as planned, right? :)
To be considered a country, you need to have a beer. Sure, it helps to have an airport or nuclear weapons, but at the very least....you need a beer.
Posted: 4/14/2005 3:56 AM
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bmecoli
Joined: 1/29/2005
Posts: 20
Location: Jacksonville FL
er... Square made it BTW... and before that they made World Runner and Rad Racer :)
kaddidlehopper!
Posted: 4/18/2005 11:14 AM
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mookish
Former player
Joined: 3/17/2005
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle, WA
Well, the run is done. Last command time is 1:30:48...which was pretty damn close to what I was hoping for. I'll write up a summary and submit it tomorrow...talk about a daunting weekend. Now, where's my beer :)
To be considered a country, you need to have a beer. Sure, it helps to have an airport or nuclear weapons, but at the very least....you need a beer.
Posted: 5/16/2005 5:04 PM
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moltar
Joined: 12/8/2004
Posts: 5
props :-) i can't even imagine how with a run concerned so much on time has those bastich bats in the way and the aggrivation it causes :-p can you manipulate what move the enemy does? and when you run into the npc from the side, can you predetermine the spot where it moves? say from running into the left, it moves down or up
Posted: 5/16/2005 5:24 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Well, it obviously can't move to the spot you're standing on, for a start...
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 5/22/2005 4:23 AM
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Enhasa
Joined: 1/14/2005
Posts: 216
mookish wrote:
I'll give *edit* Squaresoft (duh...dumb moment on my part) */edit* credit...whether they designed this or not, they did a great job making a low-level speed run a pain in the ass.
Well I doubt they sat down and thought about it. And uh, if you don't mind, what did you say in the first place? It might be funny. Anyway, you did a great job making a low-level speed run a pain in the ass.
moltar wrote:
can you manipulate what move the enemy does? and when you run into the npc from the side, can you predetermine the spot where it moves? say from running into the left, it moves down or up
In many tile-based RPGs, it is actually not random or manipulable at all. The NPCs will always make the same movements at the same time. As a sidenote, in some games like FF1, enemy actions aren't even random. They have a simple preset script and loop through it.
"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/
Posted: 5/25/2005 2:54 AM
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mookish
Former player
Joined: 3/17/2005
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle, WA
Nah, I don't mind at all...I blanked and said Nintendo (har, like they could come up with something like FF) ;) And hey...FF is seeming to be a cakewalk, compared to Dragon Warrior 4...I've had to stop my run more than a few times because of failure to manipulate luck. Spending 3-4 hours on a single fight is NOT amusing, let me tell you :)
To be considered a country, you need to have a beer. Sure, it helps to have an airport or nuclear weapons, but at the very least....you need a beer.
Posted: 5/25/2005 7:16 AM
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Dada
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Enhasa wrote:
moltar wrote:
can you manipulate what move the enemy does? and when you run into the npc from the side, can you predetermine the spot where it moves? say from running into the left, it moves down or up
In many tile-based RPGs, it is actually not random or manipulable at all. The NPCs will always make the same movements at the same time. As a sidenote, in some games like FF1, enemy actions aren't even random. They have a simple preset script and loop through it.
I guess it's not possible in Final Fantasy, then. I was able to avoid running into an NPC on my way to the weapons store in the first town of Final Fantasy III simply by waiting one frame before exiting the armor store. In Final Fantasy III, it's not possible to manipulate luck in-battle, but it IS possible to manipulate luck outside of a battle. This basically means having to wait a certain amount of frames before entering battles and then just using the right commands at the fastest time. Some boss battles could take up hours to complete, kind of like in mookish's case.
Posted: 8/8/2005 1:35 AM
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TheAxeMan
Ambassador, Experienced player (709)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Can anyone point me to the encounter listing? I've tried looking for it a few times and haven't been able to find it anywhere.
Posted: 8/8/2005 7:33 PM
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Paulygon
Joined: 4/6/2004
Posts: 74
Location: California
Well, there's the in-depth "Character Lists" faq by Patbuns17 over at GameFAQs.. it's a pretty comprehensive listing of known technical info. In it, there's a section that lists what enemy groups can be found where, plus which enemies those groups contain. I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for, but if not, chances are that it's in there somewhere.
Posted: 8/8/2005 8:55 PM
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TheAxeMan
Ambassador, Experienced player (709)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Aha, just what I was looking for, thanks. Edit: Aha, some experimentation reveals a technique which could be used to manipulate the enemy order in a timeattack. FCEU seems to have no problem recording a power cycle, so a run on this game could save and then power cycle to reset to the beginning of the encounter list. Of course this won't be real easy to do since there are only a few spots where it's convenient to do this. But if this method can somehow remove all the no-run battles then it may be worthwhile to grab some extra saving items.
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