Joined: 11/21/2004
Posts: 10
Howdy all. I was thinking about trying to make a speedrun for a while now, and after trying a few games out I decided to go with Push-Over. I have good memories of playing this game way back when, and I think it's one of the more interesting "Lemmings-type" games both to play and to watch. I was hoping to get some input here to see if it's really as interesting to watch as I think it is. I've done the first 20 stages (out of 100). Just one major thing to note. If you aren't moving when the final domino falls over your character does this stupid little victory cheer thing, thus why I'm always moving at the end of the stage. The other annoying thing about this game is that it goes back to the title screen after every stage, but it's really quick so it doesn't really detract too much from the viewing of the movie. http://www.animelyrics.com/sbacon/Push-Over(U)s.zip Any kind of feedback on this would be appreciated.
"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills..." http://www.animelyrics.com http://www.gamefaqs.com
Former player
Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA
Well, there are two problems that I see with this. The first one is that your movie doesn't do anything that's really impossible to do in real life. As I was watching the movie, this could have been played in real time and without rerecords and I wouldn't have been surprised. The second in the length. This game falls under the "fun to play but boring to watch" catagories. Even if you like to play it, I don't think that many people would like to watch nearly an hour of this game. You played the game well, but I don't think that it has potentiol to be a good movie. Oh, and why did you pick that nickname? I really hope that the gamefaqs admin would not go around and brag about his position. And if you're not him, you're impersonating him, which is not good either.
Joined: 11/21/2004
Posts: 10
Yeah, I was a bit worried about the length myself. I know that myself personally would sit and watch a longer game of this genre, but I dunno how many other people would. Thanks for the input. As for the name, why wouldn't I use my common online name? People do it all the time between different sites. *shrugs*
"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills..." http://www.animelyrics.com http://www.gamefaqs.com
Former player
Joined: 3/19/2004
Posts: 710
Location: USA
I was more concerned about your signature.
Joined: 11/21/2004
Posts: 10
Er, alright. I always put something stupid like that in my sig, even on my own forums. Is that more to your liking? I really didn't come here to talk about my sig preferences, I wanted input about the game..
"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills..." http://www.animelyrics.com http://www.gamefaqs.com
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2630
SailorBacon, from GA Tech DDR?
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
I didn't think it was so bad. Upon the start of each level, the viewer sort of looks it over themself trying to think of a solution(especially being curious when there's a new domino), then watches as you move and as you push it and wonders how it will all fall into place. I say continue, but I'm not sure how others feel.
nesrocks
He/Him
Player (246)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
having played the game to the end, even though i like this game a lot i dont think it would be a good watch if it didnt have interesting tricks (and i dont think there are any)...
Former player
Joined: 2/5/2005
Posts: 44
Location: Germany
Well, this game was suggested two or three times so far, and I remember it from my really old 133MhZ. In fact, I even still have it on this PC. To all of you who don't know about the game, it's about an ant moving around domino blocks that have different abilities, like falling over (duh), going upwards, splitting in two, rolling on etc. The idea is to push over all dominos in just one push, with the End-Domino falling over as the last one. A door will open and you can go on to the next stage. While the first levels might be rather boring, the later ones can get interesting. Being able to play frame exact will allow for some interesting moves, namely moving more dominos around as the reaction is going on. Hell, there might even be a glitch to use more than one push or something similar that could help the run. So well, would anybody be interested in this? Edit: See last post for movie.
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Others say this would make a boring run, but I for one would like to see it.
Former player
Joined: 2/5/2005
Posts: 44
Location: Germany
Well, I'd like to get help with timing, so we can calculate the fastest way. It's hard to tell when a new action starts in this game =/ Here are the ones where I'm rather sure on (not absolutly, though) Pushing in a domino: 30 frames Walking: 15 frames/field Taking out a domino: 37 frames Climbing a one height unit ladder (Level 3, for example): 60 frames That's the import ones I tested so far. Falling times of dominos might be helpful, so if anybody wants to do that... ^_^
Former player
Joined: 6/27/2004
Posts: 550
Location: New York
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1420 I still would personally enjoy it.
Former player
Joined: 2/5/2005
Posts: 44
Location: Germany
Well, I've done so first 10 levels, and they are rather boring so far. That's nothing I didn't know, though. Later levels might get interesting with some better timing and in general good strategies. As playing this game in most cases is not all too hard, I'll just go on for some more levels and see if it gets more interesting. Well, after watching that old video in that topic, Igot to say, mine is better. I'm saving a second in level 9 because I have to move 4 fields less, and in general my frame exactness for the door and the menues is better. I also think I can do the next levels faster, at least some of them. We'll see how interesting it will be.
Joined: 11/21/2004
Posts: 10
Here's 1 through 40. That's where I stopped when I saw the general lack of interest in the movie. If there's a renewed interest I can take it up again. It really does get more interesting to watch on the harder levels, much like Lemmings. Just lemme know what you think. http://www.animelyrics.com/sbacon/Push-Over(U)s.zip
"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills..." http://www.animelyrics.com http://www.gamefaqs.com
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
I wonder, would people object too much to using the password system to start out where the levels are much more interesting?
Former player
Joined: 2/5/2005
Posts: 44
Location: Germany
nitsuja: I will include Savestates that can be loaded to get to the later levels faster, don't worry about that. SailorBacon: That's only the first 20 levels, though. Anyway, after level 10 I'm 239 frames faster, and I think I know another 50 or so on level 3. I like the way you solved level 18, although I think that might be doable a tad faster even, but we'll have to see about that. Anyway, I think for a game like this, we should work together instead of competing, so what do you think? I'll post my video once I reached level 20.
Joined: 11/21/2004
Posts: 10
LLCoolDave wrote:
SailorBacon: That's only the first 20 levels, though.
Um oops. Try it again now, should be better.
LLCoolDave wrote:
Anyway, after level 10 I'm 239 frames faster, and I think I know another 50 or so on level 3. I like the way you solved level 18, although I think that might be doable a tad faster even, but we'll have to see about that. Anyway, I think for a game like this, we should work together instead of competing, so what do you think?
Yeah. I did this video back before I knew about cool things like frame advance, etc. Unfortunately, my job keeps me really busy so I don't have time to redo this. How about this, I'll keep trying to play levels as I have the time just for strategy and solving purposes, and then we can compare the way that they are done. If my way is faster, you can use it in your video. I won't have time to make a perfectly played video of my own but I'd love to have one available and I'd like to be of any help that I can.
"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills..." http://www.animelyrics.com http://www.gamefaqs.com
Former player
Joined: 2/5/2005
Posts: 44
Location: Germany
Okay, first 20 levels done and hexed into one file. http://thps3.net/pushover.zip So a few comments: The new method for level 3 only saved 38 frames because I had to take two extra steps to get into pushing position, saving one step over the old one before the push. Therefore we can conclude that a yellow domino falls over 23 frames faster than a thumbler takes to thumble one field. Of course I reused that knowledge in level 13, where I place an additional standard domino in front of the trigger domino. For level 12, I thought about taking the flyer over to the right door to save walking so much later, but I calculated it to be 7 frames slower. As much as I loved the way you solved level 18, my new method saves about 1000 frames over your old one. There were some other small differences saving time, and all in all, after level 20, I'm 2018 frames ahead. If you spot anything that you think could be done faster, feel free to tell. It's easy to hex edit this game because there is nothing random at all. I'll see if I will work on the next 10 levels later today.
nesrocks
He/Him
Player (246)
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
interesting, some levels really require skill and luck to be finished the way you did, thanks for doing so (like the last industry level)
SXL
Joined: 2/7/2005
Posts: 571
my favorite game ever, still playing it from times to times 13 years later... it's a very interesting and funny game to play and to watch, worth a try :) when I first heard of recording emulators, I had the idea to do this game (just walkthrough) so I could watch it (I really enjoy the "system" working perfectly)... great skills shown here, you've really made something astonishing with it. the only problem with the movie is that you can't skip the (earlier) boring levels, but with an AVI, the problem would be solved, and I'd definitely support a movie of this great game. keep up the good work ! *crosses fingers so that an avi gets done*
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
Former player
Joined: 2/5/2005
Posts: 44
Location: Germany
http://thps3.net/pushover.zip Update: -Video contains levels 01 through 30 -To use the savestates, be sure to play the movie in Read Only -Pushover (U).000 - Level 11 -Pushover (U).001 - Level 21 That said, I hope that somebody finds a way to improve at least one of the 2x levels. Most of them don't look too fast, although I couldn't do them any faster. Level 22: I tried moving all dominos to the top. Turned out to be about 80 frames slower =/ Would have been cool, though, because even veterans might have been surprised by that solution =D Level 23: I'm surprised this works out, timewise. Level 24: I tried placing the exploder later (just moving the normal away first), but that is 2 frames from being possible =/ Level 26: You CAN push over the normal and the trigger at the end for exactly 2 frames and still have the trigger fall over last. However, that costs 12 frames, so I decided against it. Level 27: Same problem again, can't place the exploder as the thumbler rolls. I also tried placing the vanisher behind the trigger as the reaction ran, but I couldn't move the normal in time. I tried dropping it into the hole, then taking out the forst normal, but that doesn't work out timewise. I also tried picking up the thumbler instead, but I couldn't place that in the gap in time either =/ Level 29: Maybe we could find another way to get the thing running, so it would be faster. Doubt it, though. Level 30: There's so many ways to do this, maybe I overlooked a way to do it faster. =/
Joined: 11/21/2004
Posts: 10
Very nicely played! The movements are more precise than I could make them, which obviously helped a lot with frames on some of the levels. I also liked your using the stopper domino to enter a door faster, clever. There were a few interesting domino tricks that you did that I enjoyed. Just watching one time I didn't see anything that I thought you could do faster. I'll watch it again with a fine-toothed comb later to see if I can pick anything up. I feel more inspired now towards finding clever solutions for the really cool and difficult levels later in the game. Hopefully I can spot some cool solutions that you might overlook. :)
"The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills..." http://www.animelyrics.com http://www.gamefaqs.com
Former player
Joined: 2/5/2005
Posts: 44
Location: Germany
http://thps3.net/pushover.zip Update: -Pushover (U).smc -Video contains levels 01 through 60 -To use the savestates, be sure to play the movie in Read Only -Pushover (U).000 - Level 11 -Pushover (U).001 - Level 21 -Pushover (U).002 - Level 31 -Pushover (U).003 - Level 41 -Pushover (U).004 - Level 51 -Pushover (U).005 - Level 61 (Pretty much useless right now) Well, I think the most boring levels should be over now, at least I hope they are =/ Level 31: This game is really good when it comes to being a few frames from a faster solution. Again, I cannot move the thumbler in position after the chain reaction has started. I also tried taking the thumbler to the start platform so it would roll right into the exploder and start the bottom half faster, but the whole domino movements necessairy made it slower in the end. Level 32: This solution is incredibly faster and easier than the one I usually did. Level 33: I think this might be possible to do faster, but I couldn't think of a better solution. Level 34: This solution might be unexpected. I think taking the thumbler down to the trigger is faster than putting it at the place it's supposed to be (one up two right). Level 35: Dropping that normal into the splitter saves 11 frames. Level 36: As with most levels, the goal is to start the chain as fast as possible. I lose a few frames by dropping the normal instead of pushing it, but it's still slightly faster than walking two extra fields to connect the three normals to the rest of the chain. Random discovery: It's faster to have the thumbler land on the platform and fall a second time instead of moving the exploder over so the thumbler only falls once. Level 38: I think this solution will surprise everybody who has played the game. You usually have to take the delay to the left of the splitter so the trigger will fall later on. However, that means moving many dominoes. Instead, I decided to move the splitter right once. Pushing the exploder and dropping the delay is slightly faster than pushing it. All in all this solution saves about 2 seconds over the intended one. Level 39: I only wish I saw a better solution, but I don't think there is any. You can't simply drop the normal into the splitter because there's no way to push over the rest in one push. =/ Level 40: I've got a lot of time to spend, so I just take the stopper to the top. No real reason to do so, but I need to do something after all. Level 41: Finally a level that I can use the time. I think the finish is faster if you take the second delay to the top and move the thumbler left once, but I don't think it's possible in the short time frame I have for moving the dominoes. Something interesting not in my playfield: When a flyer sticks to the ceiling and then that spot gets removed by an explosion, it will rise up again. Just take a look at it. Level 42: Yawn... While this level is meant to show you that it's possible to jump into a splitter with a domino to trigger it, it's pretty dull as I have used that technique a few times before. Level 43: And this level is supposed to introduce the "drop domino into splitter to save a push" trick I've used before as well... Level 44: To quote Kyle Katarn in Jedi Academy: "Solutions to problems aren't always obvious." There will be a similar level later on, but it's at least a nice chain reaction to watch. Level 45: Okay, here's how to trap a thumbler with a single stopper. I think this is the fastest way to do it (I wish the door was placed differently, could save some time, but I can't put the stopper in front of it). I doubt moving the stopper left at first or something similar would save time, although one could make the thumbler go over the fresh bridge sooner, but wasting time rearranging the level first... Level 47: Had to take an extra step left and right so I would end up pushing the normal, not the exploder. Level 50: Meh, such a long way to the goal. Level 52: Meh, can't do the flyer later =/ Level 53: I'm rather sure this was unintended, hehe. Level 54: Wish I could do something while the chain is running, but unfortunately, the dominos fall too fast =/ Level 56: YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWN Level 59: Wouldn't have thought this could be done so fast, hehe. Level 60: The two flyers merge into one. =D
Former player
Joined: 7/16/2004
Posts: 108
Location: Germany, Bremen
I also attempted a Push-Over speed run month ago, I stopped after my hdd crashed and my attempt (until about level 40) and my strats got lost... I was just too pissed off to retry. I quickly rushed through your attempt and noticed some levels that could be improved with faster strats. Level 14 and level 30 I could remember a better strat for example, retry them ;) . And some other levels that I've (maybe) done quicker but hard to remember without any strats :( ....hm maybe I also start another attempt with more motivation now!
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Former player
Joined: 2/5/2005
Posts: 44
Location: Germany
If you remember a strat that's faster, please post it. I'd prefer this getting done as a coproduction instead of us fighting against each other. After all, we should all be working on one single video for such a long video. Edit: Apparently entering a door from the right is 10 frames faster than doing so from the left. Therefore I'll be improving some of the levels according to this fact now. Me and Burning Death are going through possible improvements in the levels as well. 14 has been improved by quite a bit and we're working on level 30 now. Expect these changes to be done by wednesday, when I'll start working on the final 40 levels.