This is a any% run of a game called VVVVVV. I used version 2.0 because in the latest version (2.1) you can't commit suicide by pressing R. The ingame time of this run is 12:33 which is 45 seconds faster than the current toolless run (13:18), which also uses version 2.0.
Game objectives
Emulator used: Hourglass r81 (Multithreading and Wait Sync: Allow)
Aims for the fastest completion
Skips Gravitron
Uses death to save time
Comments
The physics of this game are strange, that's why I found it hard to optimize this. In this game you basically only have 5 keys. < and > to move the guy around. Action to flip and to talk. Enter to warp from a teleporter and R to commit suicide.
Death saved time in the tower because the screen will scroll to a specific position based on the checkpoint when you respawn. If you die and the checkpoint is at the top of the screen, it will scroll down and save time.
Glitches
Dying in the intro
I think the game gets confused if you die in the intro where you shouldn't supposed to die so it brings you back to your starting position. It skips a few scenes but the biggest save is that you can skip Gravitron because saving Violet doesn't lead you to the grey rooms.
Going through "Inversion Planes"
Inversion Planes or bounce lines can be skipped if they are near the floor. You press up then release it one frame then press up again. This is possible without tools if you try a bit :)
Other Comments
I guess this game can have different branches. There are twenty Shiny Trinkets around the game which could make a 100% run interesting. It is also possible to create a movie without dying, which wouldn't skip Gravitron for example. There is a No Death Mode which can be unlocked and you can skip cutscenes with it.
I don't get how people thinks that this version is a obscure one. That version went live for a long time. In fact, I finished this version first, THEN the author updated. And I bought that on Steam, even less obscure.
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ
My only issue with this is that it seems rather sketchy to use what appears to be a debug feature that was accidentally left in. Merely a stylistic concern.
It wasn't a debug feature. It was added because when playing in a custom level, it's possible to get stuck in a wall or the like if the level designer isn't careful, and the suicide button offered a way to recover. The bug is that the suicide feature isn't disabled in the official levels.
Zelda: OOT alone has more versions than most Windows games that are TAS-able (in general, not referring to Hourglass's progress).
There are always outliers, especially if you're going to pick from the very top of the pile in terms of re-releases and ports
OOT, an outlier? Right. You might want to go actually check out the contents of this site some time.
Donkey Kong Country
http://tasvideos.org/3075S.html - Version 1.0, out of seven (2 JP, 2 EU, 3 US).
Donkey Kong Country 2
http://tasvideos.org/3578S.html - Version 1.0, out of seven (2 JP, 1 EU, 2 G, 2 US).
http://tasvideos.org/3259S.html - Version 1.1. Same game, different goals so a different version.
Final Fantasy 2 (VI)
http://tasvideos.org/2033S.html - Version 1.1, out of three (1 JP, 1 EU, 2 US).
Killer Instinct
http://tasvideos.org/1338S.html - Version 1.0, out of three (1 EU, 2 US).
Mortal Kombat II
http://tasvideos.org/1637S.html - Version 1.0, out of five (1 JP, 2 EU, 2 US).
Speedy Gonzales
http://tasvideos.org/3650S.html - Version 1.0, out of two (2 US).
Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island
http://tasvideos.org/3312S.htmlhttp://tasvideos.org/3865S.htmlhttp://tasvideos.org/2282S.html - Version 1.0, out of seven (3 JP, 2 EU, 2 US).
Yes, all three TASes by different authors, all three accepted. They use the first US release, which was after the THREE Japanese ones (1.0, 1.1, and 1.2), but before the two EU ones (1.0 and 1.1).
And there's other SNES ones I'm not sure on, like the Street Fighter 2 one, or Wario's Woods...
Anyways that list is just with a quick CTRL+F for "v1" on the SNES Stars/Moons page. If I went through the Vault page and other systems as well I'm sure I could find a lot more examples.
Using the fastest specific version (even if it's an older one) is the norm for TASing.Tangent wrote:
but if you want to compare number of updates from that area for top games, then Civ 2, a game that came out two years earlier than OoT has had literally over a hundred. Starcraft, a fellow 1998 game, has around 30.
Those games are by far fewer in number, and can be handled specifically when they come. The majority of PC games out there have little to no updates.
Tangent wrote:
PC development follows a very different course for this kind of thing than console and I think should be treated differently due to that.
See, TASvideos doesn't give a shit about development. TASers are concerned with the final product. If it's not a release (we don't have public access to a confirmed dump), it's not an option for TASing.
For example if you dive into lots of ROMs, you can actually find hidden build numbers and dates. But we don't use those. We don't look at Super Mario 64.n64 and call it "Build 2852", we call it "1.0". Then the next isn't called "Build 2855", we call it "1.1" (build numbers pulled out of my ass).
Tangent wrote:
I wouldn't mind if it were either the first version or the most recent, but updating to a specific short lived intermediary version rubs me the wrong way.
/$.02
As I just showed, this is not new. TASes have been doing it for ages.
Also...
2.0 is still the current version (and I can use R to kill myself in it). Anything past that is a beta released on the forums. This has already been posted.
tl;dr: There is no problem.
Also...
2.0 is still the current version (and I can use R to kill myself in it). Anything past that is a beta released on the forums. This has already been posted.
tl;dr: There is no problem.
.......wow. I just checked with my VVVVVV Steam copy. I was perfectly able to reproduce the glitch. It wasn't removed at all.
The acuthor names the pach as "Beta patch 2.1 Final". So, it's the final version of a beta patch. Alright then
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ
Joined: 7/12/2009
Posts: 181
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Rydian wrote:
2.0 is still the current version (and I can use R to kill myself in it). Anything past that is a beta released on the forums. This has already been posted.
This is best conclusion to this kind of conversation ever. I checked it here and it's also the 2.0 version with the "glitch".
See, TASvideos doesn't give a shit about development.
This statement is very misleading.
BizHawk is living proof that TASVideos cares about development. See also BizHawk vs. FCEUX, BizHawk vs. lsnes vs. Snes9x, etc.
(Even when restricted solely to "video-game development", I would avoid putting forth such a generalization.)
See, TASvideos doesn't give a shit about development.
This statement is very misleading.
BizHawk is living proof that TASVideos cares about development. See also BizHawk vs. FCEUX, BizHawk vs. lsnes vs. Snes9x, etc.
(Even when restricted solely to "video-game development", I would avoid putting forth such a generalization.)
Alright, I'll clarify.
"You can't TAS something you don't have, so versions that were never released are not of technical concern. In any game's development there's tons of intermediary builds between the releases, but if we don't have those they're not of concern to the naming and selection scheme."
You know, I love this game, and I actually tried messing around with TASing this game. Well, now I know why I'm not the guy who did it! Haha! This gets a yes vote from me.
Exception: People have been known to TAS unreleased versions of a game in the case where the game was never released.
I guess "Made available" is a better term than "released" since it also covers ROM hacks like Super Demo World?
"Made available" is exactly what released means.
Don't really agree.. if a beta tester leaks an early build of a game, I wouldn't call that a release.
It's an interesting question whether such a leak should be a candidate for TASing, especially if it gives rise to a more entertaining and faster route, or if it was the de facto standard version in the game's community for some time due to lack of an official release...
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Exception: People have been known to TAS unreleased versions of a game in the case where the game was never released.
I guess "Made available" is a better term than "released" since it also covers ROM hacks like Super Demo World?
"Made available" is exactly what released means.
Don't really agree.. if a beta tester leaks an early build of a game, I wouldn't call that a release.
Not an official release, but it is certainly a release.
the first skyblazer submision was a beta release and was obseleted by a tas of the official release if i can recall correctly...
anyway, great Run,it should be accepted in the moon tier
and for version differences, it should be treated like region differences :
the fastest the best but the latest version should be used if the run doesn't use glitches / functions aviable on older version ( like for a deathless / glitchless run, the lastest version might be preferable as peoples would easily find the "good" version...)
Exception: People have been known to TAS unreleased versions of a game in the case where the game was never released.
I guess "Made available" is a better term than "released" since it also covers ROM hacks like Super Demo World?
"Made available" is exactly what released means.
If it was, then I and others would not have 2.0 installed on our machines even though 2.1 was apparently made over a year ago. :P
"Released" means an official commercial sense, generally retail.
"Made available" means available but not through the commercial channel.
In the case of VVVVVV you need to hunt out and download the beta update on the forums. Steam and such will not update for you.
In the case of Minecraft you need to download the weekly snapshots and install them manually (file replacement). The launcher will not update to snapshots, only to official releases.
They may not be used with the same frequency in different situations (released is definitely used more often in both situations), but "Released" and "made available" are identical in meaning. They can rightly be used interchangeably. There is no requirement that it be sold to be considered a release.
"Released" and "made available" are identical in meaning.
The TASvideos policies on ROM hacks and fan translations beg to differ (Cave Story and Star Ocean being the examples that come to mind immediately being TASed in their original release form despite the translations having been available and finalized for years), as does the suggestion on older/buggy versions where the bug is not crucial to the gameplay.
As I stated "released" refers to a commercial/official sense, "made available" means available in general (often via test releases or alternative dumps). They both involve a user being able to obtain the version in question, but one is official while one is unofficial, and that matters in many cases.
For example, you will never seen the Chrono Trigger prototype up on any official US or Square/SE game listings because it is not a "released" title (it was only given to certain demo places, not for retail sale). Nor will you see "Mother" for the NES on official Nintendo listings, because it's not a "released" title, even though it was like 99% finished.
And the reason version 2.0 is still the version of VVVVVV that Steam users are getting is because 2.0 is the most recent official "release", which is what pertains to this run.RachelB wrote:
There is no requirement that it be sold to be considered a release.
Selling is the most common way that the games people TAS were originally obtained, but no, that's doesn't mean there's no differences. For example Cave Story for the PC is free, but TASvideos still insists on using the Japanese version because it's the release, whereas the translation is what people would call "aftermarket". It's available, but it's not an official release.
TASVideos is not the only place that makes a distinction between official/proper releases, and ones that are simply "made available". Take the ROM dumping scene in general (which is someting TASVideos is highly dependent on).
This is the DS scene ROM dump info for the "Arseus Distribution 2010".
This is a dump of a physical DS game cart that was send around to places like GameStop and such, who would put it in a DS, set it to distribution mode, and then leave it running somewhere in the store, so people who came in with a pokemon game could pick up the event via the DS's local wireless option (nifi). There is no release/dump number (XXXX) because it was never an official release, it was meant to be sent out to participating shops and then sent back (and seeing as how only a few of these have been dumped, we assume they were strict about getting these special carts back).
This is something that was never official released... but it's available, so the info on it (and the dump itself, not available at the site) is recorded for preservation.
EDIT: Prettied up the URLs and spacing and clarified junk.
That is not what the word means. Something can be unofficially released. Or it can be released for free and not sold. There is no requirement for the release to be commercial, or even legal for it to be a release.
The fact that tasvideos prefers official releases, or that game companies don't recognize unofficial releases is entirely irrelevant to the meaning of the word "release".
edit:
but it's not an official release.
the fact that you need to modify the word release with "official" proves my point.
That is not what the word means. Something can be unofficially released. Or it can be released for free and not sold. There is no requirement for the release to be commercial, or even legal for it to be a release.
The fact that tasvideos prefers official releases, or that game companies don't recognize unofficial releases is entirely irrelevant to the meaning of the word "release".
edit:
but it's not an official release.
the fact that you need to modify the word release with "official" proves my point.
Because semantics rule all, eh?
I clarified my previous post and added more examples. "Released" includes "being available" as one of it's aspects, but it has more criteria than simply "being available".
$made_available = array("exists", "made available to public");
$released = array("exists", "made available to public", "distributed through official channels and listings from the originating company/entity");
Does ($released == $made_available) evaluate to true or false? :P
Isn't that what this discussion has been about since the start? You argued that "released" was not an appropriate term. The entire argument here is what the word "released" means. And i am sorry, but there is just no requirement for something to be "distributed through official channels and listings from the originating company/entity" for it to be considered released. It may not be an official release, but an unofficial release is still a release.
The actual meanings of the terms "released" and "made available" in this usage are identical. There is no difference what so ever in meaning. Released is just simpler and shorter.
I clarified my previous post and added more examples. "Released" includes "being available" as one of it's aspects, but it has more criteria than simply "being available".
welcome to Tool assisted Gramar, choose your weapon and get ready !
both of you got their point guys but just to clear this up , you are arguing about the meaning of a simple word there...
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6438
Location: The land down under.
Nicos wrote:
welcome to Tool assisted Gramar, choose your weapon and get ready !
both of you got their point guys but just to clear this up , you are arguing about the meaning of a simple word there...
Agree it's like looking into a mir- STOP LEARNING MY ENGLISH :P IT'S CRAP.
Also why are we debating version, isn't it allowed that you can use 2.0 for speedruns?
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
2.0 is still the current version (and I can use R to kill myself in it). Anything past that is a beta released on the forums. This has already been posted.
tl;dr: There is no problem.
