Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
adelikat wrote:
To clarify on some things DarkKobold said.
Vecna actually does have one published movie, and a mild interest in TASing, but his primary focus in Bizhawk is core accuracy and not writing GPL code.
Zeromus is a very valuable person to our community, more than most people realize. But he's not a TASer, and only has a passing interest in anything we do. He likes writing emulators. His interest in bizhawk is to not have to fix 1223235 poopy emulators with poopy code, and work on a good codebase inest.
My interest in bizHawk is my vision of it being a universial emulator for TASVideos. The community and the benefits of the emulator to the community are my priority here. As such, I'm the one who implemented rerecording, countless tools, and feautres, and focused on a UI that I felt benefited average users as well as TASers.
When it comes to the needs to the community, all three of us have actually been listening and done a lot since its release only 3 weeks ago to accommodate complaints, and fix bugs.
However, I would ask that in return for the effort we put in, that we at least due respect to name our work the way we please. Most everything about the emulator could be democratic rule, but give us that at least. No disrespect is intended by keeping the name of the emulator we wrote the same. Personally I think it is a bad move to rename an emulator at this point. And you have to understand that you've been calling it BizHawk for 3 weeks. We've been calling it that for about 21 months. Its grown on me, and I can't imagine it being called anything else!
Well said.
*Nach claps.
moozooh wrote:
Nach wrote:
Your arguments are worthless
Thanks Nach, that's exactly the reassuring thing we all wanted to hear.
You're welcome!
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
I think it’s sad how adelikat is actually trying to justify himself now
his reply to all the complains before can be summed up with: “lol no I don’t want to, shut up” and now he thinks he’s right or something
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
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jlun2 wrote:
Can there be a compromise, like have the emulator accept 2 different extensions, similar to how Hourglass can recognize the extension .hgm and .wtf (.HourGlass Movie and .Windows TAS File respectively)?
I didn't follow the situation very closely so I'm not familiar with this situation. What happened here? Nitsuja originally had it as .wtf, people complained and he added .hgm?
No, no they did not [make it for the community].
[...]
BizHawk is NOT part of tasvideos, and should be treated as such.
I haven't been following closely, but what were the plans for BH being the official emulator of TASVideos and gradually ousting all/most other rerecording emulators used here about? Is that still relevant? Because these ideologies don't mix well.
I think the idea was for that to happen, just by the general usability, not by force. People seem to be harping on adelikat for calling it the "preferred" NES emulator. Yeah, that may have jumped the gun a bit, but he was enthusiastic about his project; AND that word has been since retracted. No one is being forced at gun-point to abandon FCEUX. Given the comments here, you'd think people were.
moozooh wrote:
(Btw, "such" in your line refers to "part of TASVideos"; you probably meant to say "shouldn't be treated as such".)
Hmmm. I'm getting my English corrected by the Russian. Me fail. Anyway, shouldn't it actually refer to Bizhawk, since the 2nd part of the sentence starts with and? Separated, it would be:
Bizhawk is not part of TASVideos. Bizhawk should be treated as such.
ALAKTORN wrote:
I think it’s sad how adelikat is actually trying to justify himself now
his reply to all the complains before can be summed up with: “lol no I don’t want to, shut up” and now he thinks he’s right or something
So, people complain he hasn't justified his decision, so he does. He can't hop into a time machine and justify it in the past. Additionally, he was FAR more concerned with dealing with ACTUAL BUG REPORTS than people's silly name issue. There's been two BizHawk releases in two weeks, with many bugs fixed. It isn't like the dev team has been sitting around with its collective thumbs up its ass.
Talk about not being able please everyone.
Also, we will continue to accept movies from FCEUX, and have no plans to abandon it as a submittable format. If you really hate the name BizHawk, or the extension ".tas", so much that you would not use an emulator, don't.
And seriously, it is just a name. How about be thankful for the work the team put in, rather than get into a bike shed argument?
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
I interpreted your sentece as “such” referring to the “is not” part, so it made sense
such = not part of TASV = treated as not part of TASV
anyway I was kinda just saying that adelikat should’ve made that post in the first place, instead of ignoring everyone and trying to defend himself only now; it’s not about taking a time machine, rather about not making mistakes in the first place
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
<Mothrayas> BizHawk's new name should be Retarded Horse Rerecording Box
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
<Nach> so in continuation of a previous discussion
<Nach> Should we run Bizhawk inside Retarded Horse Rerecording Box?
<Nach> one good Windows only app deserves another!
<adelikat> nah, we should build a retarded horse rerecording box core for bizhawk
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
From the point of view of someone who uses emulators purely to play games, I don't care whether the name gets changed. I do think it's a pretty stupid name to give to an emulator though. *shrugs*
I don't mind the .tas extension personally. I don't feel like starting a debate about that.
Anyway, I certainly don't make any demands about the naming or claim that the community has any right to decide the name of this emulator. It is a polite request to reconsider it in light of new info, that's all.
When the name Starhawk (or *hawk) was suggested, as I understood it, the issue was that the name was already taken. As it turns out, BizHawk is taken too, and by a spam firm at that.
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We were actually aware of a company already having the name (well, owning the domain bizhawk.com). They were close their domain expiring some time ago, we were banking on that happening so we could snag it :(
As to whether or not it is a spam related company, I don't know anything about that. I do think our worlds are sufficiently separated though.
The author's of the emulator have the right to name the emulator whatever they want. I just deeply dislike the name .tas, and I feel like this is something that can and should be changed simply because they couldn't have grown so attached to it and nearly everyone dislikes it for various reasons. It's also a much less significant change and would not be that big a deal to do.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Brandon wrote:
The author's of the emulator have the right to name the emulator whatever they want.
Who died and made authors authoritative? Where's the legal council? Where's the trademarks office?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Developers can do whatever they want is pretty much given. They can also do whatever they want with file extensions or with any other feature.
Anyway, since this is pretty much a farce at this point we can just keep the dry humour pouring in.
"Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home."
( Pratchett & Gaiman: Good Omens )
Nothing wrong with the name Bizhawk... Though I'm still kind of iffy about sharing a name with that spam company, but before this thread, I didn't even know it existed. But I'll pester about the extension naming.
There is, in my eyes, a lot of evidence that suggests the .tas extension was a poor choice in naming.
1) Non-TASers might record stuff using this emulator. The extension name is potentially misleading.
This point was brought up multiple times. I feel I do not need to reiterate all that is said already.
2) Bizhawk's apparent purpose is to be a multi-system emulator.
From what I gather, this emulator's primary purpose is to unify various system emulation cores under a single common gui. The fact the emulator allows TAS is only a secondary feature, and certainly not placed above casual movie making.
3) Outright stated NOT to be a part of TASVideos.
This implies that it was not made purely for TASing. Yet here it is, a board dedicated to it, and attention was definitely attracted. The fact a .tas extension was provided as a replay file extension would indicate that it has a strong link to a TASing community, but since it was stated not to be a part of TASVideos, this indicated link does not seem to exist.
4) The emulator is still young.
Perhaps not a good reason in and of itself, but it does lessen the negative impact of a rename now than it would a year down the road. How many people have known of this emulator 4 weeks ago? 2 months ago? There's certainly many more who know of it now, but give it a year, and that will spread to far more. A rename now will at least catch most of that spread.
I will outright state that I hate the .tas extension name. Not a simple dislike, not a wondering thought that it could be better, but more towards throwing insults and greater unwillingness to even use the emulator thanks to the name of the extension alone. Yes, I hate it, and I mean it!
Even so, I prefer to remain as constructive as possible, and insults are certainly not going to help anyone. And "greater unwillingness" doesn't mean I absolutely refuse to use the emulator ever, just that I see another reason to avoid actively using it. I'll still try it out at some point, but I hate the extension name harshly enough to actually make a post about it.
Emotional? Probably. Are the reasons I listed enough to accumulate my hatred? Probably not, the rest of the way is likely just emotional. I just do not like commonly established terms given a strong potential to be misused.
My initial impressions of Bizhawk may be rather poor, but adelikat wants it to work. That's reason enough for me to support it, despite any features in it I hate. I may want them to change, but I won't push to some breaking point if the development says no. I will push, as evidenced by this post, but I sure hope not destructively so.
The author's of the emulator have the right to name the emulator whatever they want.
Who died and made authors authoritative? Where's the legal council? Where's the trademarks office?
Exactly. This is not a personal pet project, nor a commercial emulator. It is an open source project. The programmers are not in any way better than any other person on the team. We are all equal. All input is equal. That's the point of free software.
I personally don't care about the emulator name, but I find the attitude here disturbing. There is absolutely no lack of respect in trying to contribute to an open source emulator by trying to get a better name for it. And the code does not belong to you because you coded it. You released it under a copyleft license--it belongs to everyone.
Exactly. This is not a personal pet project, nor a commercial emulator. It is an open source project. The programmers are not in any way better than any other person on the team. We are all equal. All input is equal. That's the point of free software.
I personally don't care about the emulator name, but I find the attitude here disturbing. There is absolutely no lack of respect in trying to contribute to an open source emulator by trying to get a better name for it. And the code does not belong to you because you coded it. You released it under a copyleft license--it belongs to everyone.
What.
No, not all contributors are created equal. If your only contribution is to complain about what the people who are actually being productive* are doing, then your "contributions" will be ignored. Put another way, you can buy yourself a vote in how the project is managed by contributing to the project in meaningful ways. Once you show that your voice is one worth listening to, the existing de-facto management will be more likely to pay attention to you.
"Open source" is not equivalent to anarchy or democracy or any other government/management system. The two concepts are orthogonal. That said, most open-source projects are run via an ad-hoc meritocracy, where the people who care enough to dedicate their time to improvements are the ones who get to decide where things are going.
On its own, all that "open source" means is that if you don't like what the people in charge are doing, then you can make your own copy of the program and do what you like with it. So feel free to fork BizHawk and call it whatever you like.
* i.e. coding, designing, making art, basically anything that actually results in visible changes to the program.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
