It looks bad, it sounds bad and it makes that battle look cheap. Pwning bosses with actual battle tactics looks much better.
Please don't reduce the game to cutscenes and pause screens ;)
Would it be possible to use the pausing only to affect the victory sequence? If so, that is the only place I suggest it be used. Using it in the middle of a battle detracts from the entertainment value for me. Maybe use it for a couple of frames at a time if it will allow you to gain an advantage, but don't just spam it.
adelikat wrote:
It started off fairly tame, but as more balls entered the picture it sure got a lot more entertaining.
While it's annoying, this "entertainment" bull that's been here truly sucks. I want to watch the fastest possible, not just some approximation thereof.
Haters gonna hate. If it saves time, use it.
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
yes, this video was to show the worst case scenario (ie, reducing the in-game timer by as much as possible while not slowing down tifa's atb)
i will only use it to manipulate the rng, atb and the victory sequence
this should make its use quite minimal
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
actually i don't know :p
it seems everything is a trade off between speed and entertainment
so far i've decided not to use:
cait sith's slots (one hit kill)
excessive pause glitch (to slow the timer) [the only thing annoying about this is the small 'pause' box and the sound, it doesnt slow down anything in real time]
only because it makes the run less fun to watch
i'm not opposed to Saving in order to get a lower time (saving resets certain values), but this is unlikely to happen unless something unexpected comes up
I'd like to propose you shoot for real time, not in-game time. It's purely opinion, but I think that manipulating an in-game timer is about as esoteric as any other in-game variable. Speed is very simple to define in real terms for TASes: time length of the input file.
While it's annoying, this "entertainment" bull that's been here truly sucks. I want to watch the fastest possible, not just some approximation thereof.
Haters gonna hate. If it saves time, use it.
If you want the fastest possible run this isn't it. Antd already said he wasn't using Cait Sith's Slots.
As far as how final time is determined I believe you should aim for fastest in game time as everyone else in the speedrunning community does this. Worth noting though you can't check the in game timer once you get to the final bosses.
With that said artificially reducing the in game time i think would be a nono. looking at how this glitch works it doesnt seem to be doing that, right?
Ingenious, talk about a break-through! Stuff like this what RTSers TASers live for.
I agree with True, the first and foremost primary goal of speedrunning should always to be to beat the game as fast as possible using w/e means the game allows.
I guess I'm even quoted on that in some guy's forum sig, kind of funny.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Spider-Waffle wrote:
I agree with True, the first and foremost primary goal of speedrunning should always to be to beat the game as fast as possible using w/e means the game allows.
Funny, there seems to be sort of a rift in the community between people who believe that entertainment is always the first goal and people who believe speed is.
The first duty of every speedrunner is to the speed - whether realtime speed, or in-game speed, or absolute speed. It is the guiding principle on which TASvideos is based, and if you can't find it within yourself to stand up and be as fast as possible, then you don't deserve to wear that uniform!
Rayas wrote:
Dunno if I'm really clear. I need to drink more.
<br>
adelikat wrote:
The idea was to kill off my family to avoid lost time to them getting sick and other inconvenient things.
The first duty of every speedrunner is to the speed - whether realtime speed, or in-game speed, or absolute speed. It is the guiding principle on which TASvideos is based, and if you can't find it within yourself to stand up and be as fast as possible, then you don't deserve to wear that uniform!
On the other hand you aren't the one doing the run so you have no rights to tell another runner how to do HIS run. I certainly haven't agreed with a hell of a lot of choices on a hell of a lot of runs but at the end of the day I'm just happy to have a new TAS to watch. It's just a great thing to know someone is actually taking their spare time and creating these works... even if they may not conform to our perfect ideals.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
The first duty of every speedrunner is to the speed...
It works for some games. And in this case, parameters and priorities are here to make things clear.
Personally, I'd get a headache if the movie was made with the pause glitch.
On the other hand you aren't the one doing the run so you have no rights to tell another runner how to do HIS run. I certainly haven't agreed with a hell of a lot of choices on a hell of a lot of runs but at the end of the day I'm just happy to have a new TAS to watch. It's just a great thing to know someone is actually taking their spare time and creating these works... even if they may not conform to our perfect ideals.
I know. I just felt like paraphrasing Captain Picard. :P
Rayas wrote:
Dunno if I'm really clear. I need to drink more.
<br>
adelikat wrote:
The idea was to kill off my family to avoid lost time to them getting sick and other inconvenient things.
I agree with True, the first and foremost primary goal of speedrunning should always to be to beat the game as fast as possible using w/e means the game allows.
Funny, there seems to be sort of a rift in the community between people who believe that entertainment is always the first goal and people who believe speed is.
Very true. And yes, I've basically had it with "entertainment," especially as that's really the benchmark anymore. I even joked about it on a rejected run I ran, and I'm sure that my "entertainment" joke was responsible for some of the hate. And how do you subjectively beat "entertainment?"
Some runs, like fighting games, obviously have this requirement, and as such the first runner has a much higher chance of retaining a published video for some time - rather than flaws or deficiencies in the run being found to save time, instead flaws must be found in the game to further subjective "entertainment" value. And if you break the game so much you go to the credits? Well, perhaps too much "entertainment" is lost, ...and so on...
Back to this run: I personally don't like that antd is not using a glitch that could save considerable time. Don't get me wrong, I'll certainly be "entertained" without it but I'd still be "entertained" with it. It's his run, though. I just hope that "entertainment" takes a back seat when valuable time in this very long game can be saved.
inb4icwutudidthar
Very true. And yes, I've basically had it with "entertainment," especially as that's really the benchmark anymore. I even joked about it on a rejected run I ran, and I'm sure that my "entertainment" joke was responsible for some of the hate. And how do you subjectively beat "entertainment?"
Some runs, like fighting games, obviously have this requirement, and as such the first runner has a much higher chance of retaining a published video for some time - rather than flaws or deficiencies in the run being found to save time, instead flaws must be found in the game to further subjective "entertainment" value. And if you break the game so much you go to the credits? Well, perhaps too much "entertainment" is lost, ...and so on...
Back to this run: I personally don't like that antd is not using a glitch that could save considerable time. Don't get me wrong, I'll certainly be "entertained" without it but I'd still be "entertained" with it. It's his run, though. I just hope that "entertainment" takes a back seat when valuable time in this very long game can be saved.
inb4icwutudidthar
The problem is RPGs suffer from exactly the same problem as fighting games. Nobody wants to watch a TAS of a fighting game that goes for pure speed as the player would use the same exact strategy in every single fight and the run would be boring as hell.
RPGs also have this problem because it's all too easy to simply do the same thing the whole game. If entertainment is the priority of a fighting game why isn't it the priority of an RPG? And if the pause trick can be used in every battle then who other than somebody watching for the story would care about watching the run? Also in case you forgot the text is already going by too fast to read so this TAS is going to be about the fights and I don't think most people would want to see the same damn tactic the whole game.
My 2c.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
Nobody wants to watch a TAS of a fighting game that goes for pure speed
This isn't a fighting game, this is a linear RPG - but to answer I'm sure there are some
Wren wrote:
as the player would use the same exact strategy in every single fight
Sort of like the exact same strategy of corner boosting or 1/1 swimming or... pick your game
Perhaps you're saying he should use different strategies every fight just to be entertaining? antd, stop throwing grenades! It's not entertaining enough!
Look at the CT NG+ run! Saves were broken and the two fights that happen work the same way! Surely they should've just been fought out?
And you think some skips in your music is more important? Is it not ringing yet how ridiculous this "entertainment" crap is?
Wren wrote:
and the run would be boring as hell.
ENTERTAINMENTWren wrote:
If entertainment is the priority of a fighting game why isn't it the priority of an RPG?
It isn't the priority of every fighting game. That said, if the fights don't happen at least subjectively fast then perhaps it's too slow? I think we need more subjective variables.
Also non-linear, short fighters aren't linear, long RPGs.
Wren wrote:
And if the pause trick can be used in every battle then who other than somebody watching for the story would care about watching the run? Also in case you forgot the text is already going by too fast to read so this TAS is going to be about the fights and I don't think most people would want to see the same damn tactic the whole game.
I think it's more about the final time. This whole "it must be pretty" crap is ruining this scene.
Wren wrote:
The first duty of every speedrunner is to the speed - whether realtime speed, or in-game speed, or absolute speed. It is the guiding principle on which TASvideos is based, and if you can't find it within yourself to stand up and be as fast as possible, then you don't deserve to wear that uniform!
Um, no. Do you see the title? Tool-assisted superplays.
The goal is the most entertaining movie, not the fastest. See the recent brain age submission.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
I never once thought this was a Tool-assisted superplay, I had always assumed this was a Tool-assisted speedrun. Maybe I'm wrong, well which is it?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 971
Location: Great Britain
I'm beginning to think whether getting Slots is worth it or not.
The current consensus is that it would save time, but "not very much".
I will test how long it will take to acquire Slots, and how much time it could theoretically save. Slots is acquired by using Dice 8 times.
Slots will not be necessarily faster than Tifa-deathblow in every situation. So there is the possibility that I could have both without sacrificing too much on entertainment.
According to my crude estimation, Slots could save up to 13 minutes (in boss battles).
This is not taking into account the time it takes to acquire it or build up Cait's limit break though, as I do not know how long this will take.
I guess it would be easy to manipulate a boss into attacking Cait, thus filling his limit bar.
My other crude estimation allows pause-glitch abuse to save 7 minutes (if Slots is not used).
These numbers are just from my own head though. I will have to test to get something accurate.
