Post subject: Policy on Continues in Arcade Games
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Alright, this argument has gotten out of hand. I'd like to get some feedback on how everyone feels about this, because the submission thread has basically broken down into X2poet arguing everyone who disagrees. So, lets put this to a vote. Continues in arcades ARE sufficiently different from continues on a console that it is worth reviewing. (Consoles punish you on death, Arcades look to gain money off your death, therefore, punishment is rarely severe, and may add a benefit (such as metal slug X).
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If using coins = cheat-like, then shouldn't there be a rule for it?
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This only means arcade cannot play because using coins = cheat. It is just like using a pen = cheat in exam.
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<KennyMan666> It should be pretty obvious that the INTITAL COINS NEEDED TO START THE GAME isn't an issue
That's basically it. All the extra coins used to gain advantage over the game feel like cheating to me.
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What about console games that give you unlimited lives and continues?
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Ferret Warlord wrote:
What about console games that give you unlimited lives and continues?
That's a game feature then, not an emulator feature, so I don't think that's really such a big issue.
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Ferret Warlord wrote:
What about console games that give you unlimited lives and continues?
I'd say it should probably be considered on a case-by-case basis rather than it being a hard rule. If overuse of continues detracts from the entertainment or seriously breaks the "flow" of the run in a negative way, even if the overall completion time becomes slightly faster, it may be better to not to use them at all. (A good point presented in the metal slug thread was that if continues can be used to make the run faster, shouldn't they be used as often as possible to do so? Using them only occasionally is really arbitrary and hard to justify.) It's probably better not to make a hard rule on this, but at most a guideline (along the lines of "generally continues should not be used in arcade games unless there's a good reason for them and they don't detract from the enjoyment of the run").
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I voted "Yes for All", but I could also have voted "No, with rare exceptions" and it wouldn't have made much of a difference to me. I essentially believe that generally the author should be the one to judge whether not using continues or using continues will produce the aesthetically more beautiful run. In cases of doubt, he/she should ask the audience before finishing the run or submit two versions at once. In any case, I think there doesn't need to be a global rule on this. As for the Metal Slug runs, I think it was just a very unfortunate case because most of the viewers perceived the deaths as a lot uglier than the author thought they would. I'd agree that for most arcade games, not using continues would generally produce more beautiful results, so going with option 2 would also be totally reasonable imo.
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Having not seen either MG run, I will just vote based on the idea rather than a specific instance, and say "No, with rare exceptions". I don't like the idea of using a continue to just bolster weapons/ammo/life, since coin usage is an unlimited resource that doesn't have to be managed (unlike death management in a console game). However if utilizing a continue in an arcade game leads to an unforeseen event, glitch, level skip, etc, and doesn't just "arm to the teeth", then it' should be allowed.
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I have difficulty coming to a firm decision on this. So in lieu of actually voting, I'm going to present some case studies: * Contra DS. The player dies routinely to skip even very short pauses, since dying lets you "jump" over long gaps. * Gradius. A death is used here because the fully-powered-up ship prompts the game to make a boss fight last longer; dying and resetting the ship to baseline is faster than the longer bossfight. * The current Metal Slug runs. Deaths are used to restore the players' grenade supplies, to spawn heavy machineguns (available when the player continues), and to change the active characters (purely cosmetic change). Additionally, dying in Metal Slug X allows a few segments where the players must shoot down an incoming train to be skipped. I'm fine with the deaths in the first two, but not so much for the last, and I'm trying to rationalize that. In Contra, the deaths don't stop the action at all; the player dies and almost immediately respawns, so things keep moving. Moreover, all of the deaths look intentional, e.g. jumping out into open space when there's clearly nothing in range to land on. Thus the issue that dying usually looks "not skillful" is averted. In Gradius, the death is a very WTF moment for anyone remotely familiar with the game. By all rights, dying and having your ship get downgraded should not make the run faster! Here it's the counterintuitive nature of the speedup that makes the death entertaining. And though it's harder to make an intentional-looking death in Gradius without losing time, the player dies to something that could have trivially been avoided had they been trying at all. In the Metal Slug games, in contrast, the deaths don't look intentional. They look like the player was too focused on attacking to notice an incoming bullet until it was too late. Obviously it's difficult if not impossible to make an intentional-looking death that doesn't lose time here, but that, combined with the lengthy delay before the player respawns, combine to make the deaths look bad strictly from an aesthetics standpoint. Add in the fact that the deaths make the player more powerful as opposed to less (Note that dying in Contra reduces you to the peashooter) and the whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Does this generalize to some kind of arcade vs. console rule? I don't know for sure, but I'm leaning towards no, despite that earlier I was pushing for the judges to come out with an official rule. Sorry guys! I'm sure there are console games (that aren't ports of arcade games) where dying restocks your supply of smartbombs or gives you a limited-time power boost. Would we frown on a player who makes use of deaths to speed up bossfights? What if they used a continue to "restock" their deaths? I think we'd run into the same entertainment vs. speed debate without even having to consider the coin issue that arcades add in. So in short, I'm on the side of entertainment, wherever it happens to lie. I suspect that in most cases arcade games will be more entertaining to me if they don't add extra coins; so far that's proven to be the case (barring obvious exceptions like SDR's excellent fighting game runs) but we have a very small sample size as yet. That doesn't mean they'll be more entertaining for everyone, though; entertainment is a fairly personal thing. Which is a big reason why I'm having trouble voting; it feels like my trying to dictate to other people what they should enjoy.
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I think it is unfortunate that the motivation behind arcade games may tend to influence people to put in more money, but I don't think you can make a solid rule outright banning putting in more money for an entire system. The motivation causes the game creators to put in exploits that otherwise wouldn't exist, as shown in the submission. I'll present a hypothetical scenario though. Say a game gives you 100 points per coin or something small, and there is an event triggered by score (maybe which level you are on or something.) Then jamming in 1 coin per frame is the fastest way to beat the game, which is no good. I think it is best to consider it on a case by case basis. In the case of continuing in general, we have said it is okay for NES games. We've also seemed to agree that it is okay to replenish ammo. It seems questionable to do and get a bonus gun. What if the character started with a random weapon? Would it be okay to die to switch weapons? What if the default gun was better in some parts than a better gun? Is it okay to die and alter your gun to default even though it is better in that case? I think it is for the most part okay as long as it doesn't work to the effect that 100 coins are jammed in per frame. I think it should be considered on a case by case basis. I think the case presented the author may have been correct even though it detracted from entertainment.
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Kirkq wrote:
I think it should be considered on a case by case basis.
This is the best approach, but unfortunately it's not present in the poll. My vote wouldn't be neither a "yes for all" (too permissive) nor a "no with rare exceptions" (too restrictive, I have a very bad feeling about that keyword "rare"), but something intermediate (like "yes but only if there is a good reason" which sounds way less scary than "rare exceptions"), so given the current poll options I abstain from voting.
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Well, pretty much as said before, the use of the continue in Metal Slug didn't bother me as I knew it to be intentional (it is a TAS after all) but after looking again I can imagine very well why it would bother other people. The death does, by all means, look like a mistake. So as much as I may be a speed purist, I think the author would be better of making a little speed-entertainment trade off and avoiding the deaths. But more on-topic, I think the issue of using continues is a tough one. Whatever rule I think of, there's always plenty of exceptions. So I'd say judge on a case-by-case basis.
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I'm all for No with some exceptions. I'd prefer case-by-case basis decisions on this, personally.
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There isn't a poll entry for my opinion on this, which is that using continues should be a separate category, and like any other category should be rejected for bad goal choice if it isn't entertaining for that game. (Much like "no damage" is a category, and one that's often avoided on the basis that it's less interesting than a takes-damage-to-save-time run.) Sometimes a continueless run might be rejected for bad goal choice; sometimes a continued one might be. It depends on how entertaining it would be in context.
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And it isn't only benifit for Metal Slug X. Adding coins would be benifit for these Arcade Games: Teenage mutant ninja turtles -Turtle in time because power attack would cost some HP.No HP cannot use it Guerilla War Adding bombs by death Ikari Controlling the position And more I didn't know. Most of them didn't like the death,not only for continue.
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X2poet wrote:
Teenage mutant ninja turtles -Turtle in time because power attack would cost some HP.No HP cannot use it
Me and DarkKobold decided that we wont use it in our run as sort of a speed/entertainment tradeoff. Just an fyi. ;) EDIT: Actually, thats only in the SNES version. I thought you were talking about Boss HP since it would be higher with all 4 turtles. Sorry for misreading.
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Oh that may be great,and I also like it. I set my vote to Yes For All. Using it or Do not take damage.
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Put me down for "Continues are sufficiently different in arcade vs other platforms, that they deserve their own set of rules" Having said that, I think they should be similar category as passwords & controller cheats. Against the rules, but not so absolutely that they can't have exceptions. Thus I voted for "No, with rare exceptions".
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Brushy wrote:
Ferret Warlord wrote:
What about console games that give you unlimited lives and continues?
That's a game feature then, not an emulator feature, so I don't think that's really such a big issue.
This is also game feature.Not the emulator.Console version Metal Slug can continue all the way without coins.If this is limited to Arcade,why not do it in console version just like in PS?PS version has CD loading time,that kill the entertainment. Some arcade games cannot continue,and some arcade game your death or continues will start from the whole stage beginning just like Ganryu.
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I see using only INTITAL COINS NEEDED TO START THE GAME as a sort of hard difficulty for Arcade, because in real life it is more probable that the player have some additional money, but nut using it he seems to handle more skilly, which is harder. So, using coins is a NORMAL gameplay for Arcade. But while Superplay is summoned to be ABOVE normal, the continue using shall be a result of discussion in unobvious cases (though I don't know what one would be obvious here). Also, if continues look namely more WTF than avoiding them (requires skill for making unique entertainment), if they are funny played up, they must be allowed. Then, the comunity needs to see WIPs before submitting. If we see a no-death Metal Slug by X2poet, we could compare easily. The things obvious for one may become obvious for all. And if "all" prefer no-death actually, then the decision was found!
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X2poet wrote:
And it isn't only benifit for Metal Slug X. Adding coins would be benifit for these Arcade Games: Teenage mutant ninja turtles -Turtle in time because power attack would cost some HP.No HP cannot use it Guerilla War Adding bombs by death Ikari Controlling the position And more I didn't know. Most of them didn't like the death,not only for continue.
TMNT1 - Bosses get harder if you don't die. As opposed to an incentive to put money in, there is a disincentive to not die. I chose to not die in my run, for that reason. Cadash - Putting money in equals more health. No health management would be required, just keep buying it. Bionic Commando - new lives put you at the top of the screen. Mukki didn't use this, because the entire run would have been the player dying.
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All of them are good runs.I don't have a drastic opinion after all. Edit:If it is a good run.I don't care how players manage the target. Using password is only acceptable for only few games. NES American Gradiators have many same things. NES James Bond Jr. Without password you cannot see the last boss. Password is in game,but not a cheat,some games using password get warping,jump over many interesting things.Nobody want to see that. Continue is like this: Some games are convenient to use continue for making a run. Some are not. Arcade game: Coin is the natural resources in it.
DarkKobold wrote:
TMNT1 - Bosses get harder if you don't die. As opposed to an incentive to put money in, there is a disincentive to not die. I chose to not die in my run, for that reason.
And this is why I tried to complete NES tmnt2 2-player run.
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Coin is the natural resources in it.
That is my post about. Using coins is NORMAL for Arcade, but TAS must be ABOVE normal ("with some exceptions").
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I think this is two separate questions. -Should the coin trigger be allowed beyond initial setup? Yes, absolutely, it is an input on the machine, and easily abused in real time as well. -Should excessive continues be used? If it's faster, I say go for it.