I think the best stipulations for a low-glitch run would be...
Does not use horizontal underflow
Does not use any form of wall zipping
This leaves plenty of room for both showing off the levels, and for time-saving with minor glitches.
As for this run, I've been following the WIPs since I got my computer back in September, and I am DAMN impressed. Yes vote for sure.
I think the best stipulations for a low-glitch run would be...
Does not use horizontal underflow
Does not use any form of wall zipping
This leaves plenty of room for both showing off the levels, and for time-saving with minor glitches.
As for this run, I've been following the WIPs since I got my computer back in September, and I am DAMN impressed. Yes vote for sure.
Would we actually see the proper boss for Sonic & Tails in the Marble Garden Zone then?
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
boct1584: your list leaves off: scrolling of objects offscreen to go through them, vertical level wrapping abuse (see Sky Sanctuary), going over the top of the screen (e.g., in Marble Garden 2 one can reach the Knuckles boss without having to zip by walking over the top), anti-gravity glitch (might be useful even if no zips), manipulation of object placement. Are you sure some of these are "low" glitch?
@True: At least in Ubuntu, with the past several versions from the WineHQ ppa, I can get sound with no issues. I can't dump neither video nor audio, but everything else works perfectly (though the Wine binaries in main Ubuntu repos aren't as outdated as they used to be...). I have been using the Alsa setting in Wine, which goes through PulseAudio in Ubuntu.
Points are taken, marzojr. Here's an updated low-glitch list.
Does not use horizontal underflow
Does not use any form of wall zipping
Does not use vertical screen wrapping
Does not go over the top of the level
Does not pass through solid objects by scrolling them offscreen
Does not utilize anti-gravity glitches
I think not using the antigravity glitches is borderline; finding a way to use it without zipping in Flying Battery 2 would be pretty cool; same for Icecap 1.
That's… quite a list. Aren't some items redundant? Underflow is a private case of zipping and both are a way to go through solid objects (keeping in mind that solidity at the moment of passing through is hardly relevant here), wrapping around a stage requires going over the top in one way or another. Defining top correctly would probably help a lot.
What other glitches are there, anyway, aside from the listed?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I listed underflow and zipping separately because of Carnival Night 1, where it looks to me like the antigravity trick with the spinner lets him initiate the underflow without zipping. If I'm wrong, then yeah, only "no zipping" needs listed.
This one isn't clear, as certain levels such as Ice Cap 1 or Marble Garden 1 are required to use vertical wrapping because of the way they're designed. For example, look at Ice Cap 1:
It appears obvious that the screen wraps by default (interestingly enough the programmers forgot to set that property in Sonic 3 alone if you play as Tails, so he will always die on the first slope unless you manually reset the wrap property by entering a bonus stage or a special stage).
The fact that the camera goes nuts if you look down and jump is just a glitch that can be exploited. So the definition should be probably reworded to "abuse" instead of "use", or "does not use the glitch that happens in vertical wrapping levels".
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Re: low-glitch run: Someone mentioned that going over the top of the screen should be considered a glitch for the purposes of such a run. I'm quite torn on that because going over the top of Spring Yard 1 in Sonic 1 has been accepted forever, although I guess in the one useful example in S3K (Hydrocity 1) you lose substantially more of the level...
I think that if someone made a run that showed "intended" gameplay, for want of a better word (it's 7am and I've worked through the night okay), then people would immediately watch it and get a completely different impression from this submission. In that sense, it's rather sad that the rules of the site force us to come up with strict parameters for such a run before it can even start.
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I may have missed it in this thread, but what's wrong with just saying "Glitch-less"? If enough people want to see more of the game, what would be wrong with just skipping all the glitches and going from there?
Would we actually see the proper boss for Sonic & Tails in the Marble Garden Zone then?
This is a part of a question I was waiting to ask...
What is the opinion on fighting all the intended bosses?
The Marble Garden zone one got me thinking about it, (because I do like the idea behid that one, and was sad to see it skipped) but in the current any% the list for zones that skip/switches boss or sub-boss fights is getting as large as zones that do not.
(Marble Garden, Ice Cap, Launch Base, Flying Battery, Lava Reef and Sky Sanctuary IIRC)
Lava Reef 2: Horizontal underflow, glitches into Knuckles' route to skip the boss
Hidden Palace: N/A
Sky Sanctuary: Vertical wrapping abuse
Death Egg 1: Wall zipping
Death Egg 2: Wall zipping
Almost every zone would be longer in a low-glitch or glitchless run, but I would argue in favor of "low-glitch" over "glitchless" because there are plenty of minor glitches that can be utilized, like the Knuckles/switch confusion in Angel Island.
Angel Island 1: Tails carries Sonic before he regains control after the Knuckles Cutscene
Hidden Palace: surprisingly fast defeat of Knuckles
boct1584 wrote:
I would argue in favor of "low-glitch" over "glitchless" because there are plenty of minor glitches that can be utilized, like the Knuckles/switch confusion in Angel Island.
I have to disagree, I'd rather get rid of all the glitches (and not just some of them, which would be arbitrary) if we're taking this route. The switch confusion isn't a "minor" glitch as it definitely requires TAS techniques to be performed on purpose, and therefore one could argue that it shouldn't be used. The camera abuse in vertical wrapping levels, instead, can be done in real time and would be a much better candidate if you wanted to include "some" glitches in a "low glitch" run. I don't think the debate would come to unanimity, so "no glitches at all" is probably to be recommended.
Hydrocity 1: Wall zip.
Carnival Night 2: technically, 2 small zips, one of which has long-lasting consequences (ultra high speed).
Launch Base 1: Moves objects off-screen to go through them. Glitches into Knuckles' boss.
Sandopolis 1: Goes over the top of the screen to reach wall zip.
Sandopolis 2: Uses the fact that Tails does not interact with some off-screen objects. Also, abused incorrect assumption in boss programming to get the hitbox to return faster than it should. Moves objects off-screen to go through them.
Lava Reef 1: Uses the fact that Tails does not interact with some off-screen objects to open up a faster route. Moves objects off-screen to go through them.
Lava Reef 2: Moves object off-screen to go through it.
Hidden Palace: Moves object off-screen to go through it.
Sky Sanctuary: Moves object off-screen to go through it.
Death Egg 2: Moves objects off-screen to go through them.
Moreover, several levels feature jumps into locations that should be impossible for Sonic to do, but are managed anyway with high speed and slope jumping (Hydrocity 1, Marble Garden 1 & 2, Mushroom Hill 2, Sandopolis 1, Death Egg 1).
I would argue in favor of "low-glitch" over "glitchless" because there are plenty of minor glitches that can be utilized, like the Knuckles/switch confusion in Angel Island.
I have to disagree, I'd rather get rid of all the glitches (and not just some of them, which would be arbitrary) if we're taking this route. The switch confusion isn't a "minor" glitch as it definitely requires TAS techniques to be performed on purpose, and therefore one could argue that it shouldn't be used. The camera abuse in vertical wrapping levels, instead, can be done in real time and would be a much better candidate if you wanted to include "some" glitches in a "low glitch" run. I don't think the debate would come to unanimity, so "no glitches at all" is probably to be recommended.
I completely agree. I would leave out all glitches as well as any trick that can't be done in real time. In my opinion, "low glitch" is a pointless category.
marzojr wrote:
Moreover, several levels feature jumps into locations that should be impossible for Sonic to do, but are managed anyway with high speed and slope jumping (Hydrocity 1, Marble Garden 1 & 2, Mushroom Hill 2, Sandopolis 1, Death Egg 1).
If those are possible in real time, I think that using them would be fine.
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I completely agree. I would leave out all glitches as well as any trick that can't be done in real time.
So what you are saying is that we can't take out most of the glitches then :-p
Because so far, the only glitches that non-TAS speed-runners haven't done in real-time are:
Hydrocity 1 zip (it is possible -- I myself have done it many times, and I am no speed-runner -- but hard to do reliably) and transition glitch (easily possible if you pull of the zip, you just need to know when to brake);
Marble Garden 1 zip (although only technically; they use another, present in earlier S3&K runs, which involve vertical screen wrapping abuse and a monitor; ends up in the same place);
IceCap (far to easy to get killed by crushing sprites along the way, far too hard to pull off the zip at the end);
Launch Base 2 zip into Knuckles' boss area (the zip into regular boss has been done);
Mushroom Hill 1 zip and glitched start on 2 (no camera hack makes the latter next to impossible);
Flying Battery 2 (although only technically; they use another zip with the same result);
Lava Reef 1 zips (the first one requires ridiculous precision; the other requires Tails to lift you up so as to not to be slower);
Lava Reef 2 ground entrance (although the boss skip has been done);
Hidden Palace: expedited Knuckles' fight;
Death Egg 1 zip (they usually don't need to -- the slightly slower start makes the light bridge vanish before they get there).
Everything else has been done in unassisted runs.
Edit: @Noob Irdoh: the purpose for the list of glitches is to try to reach an agreement as to what constitutes a "small" glitch. For "no" glitches, most of the ultra high jumps, as well as slope jumping, would have to be removed as they are technically a form of abusing the game physics.
Oh, I also disagree that the switch confusion can't be done without TAS techniques. It can't be done reliably without TAS techniques, but if you know when to brake, you can pull it off on occasion. And anticipating your objection: most of the ultra high slope jumps also cannot be done reliably unassisted; so if you want to take out one, you have less reason not to take out the other.
Also
In regards to over-the-top scenarios, some of them, regardless of having been achieved unassisted, are just a consequence of going too fast while still respecting the game engine's intended interaction with objects (it's just that precision involved in this case helps us avoid slowdowns that would usually prevent this from being feasible, which is largely the same case with instances of doing so in unassisted speedruns). In this case I have two questions.
1. How many instances of going over the top would occur in an any% to achieve fastest completion without using that to set up a zip/wraparound?
2. What consistutes the top: top edge of the screen, or a certain vertical coordinate?
Also, a semi-unrelated question: what would be Tails's role in a glitchless/low-glitch run aside from killing bosses faster?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Also, a semi-unrelated question: what would be Tails's role in a glitchless/low-glitch run aside from killing bosses faster?
Take a look at the end of Angel Island 1 and all of Death Egg 1 for examples: boosting Sonic into higher places so as he gets there faster.
Re: 1: Hydrocity 1, Marble Garden 2 to get to Knuckles' boss.
Re: 2: Indeed this requires a definition; in particular, the top of the screen will change in boss fights. In most cases, it would be best to limit going over the top of the level, and disallowing going over the top of the screen in vertically wrapping levels (or sections of levels).
I completely agree. I would leave out all glitches as well as any trick that can't be done in real time.
So what you are saying is that we can't take out most of the glitches then :-p
The key words were "as well as". ;D
marzojr wrote:
For "no" glitches, most of the ultra high jumps, as well as slope jumping, would have to be removed as they are technically a form of abusing the game physics.
Do you really class "ultra high jumps" and "slope jumps" as glitches? If that is the case, I guess that we have a different concept of what a glitch is. :/
marzojr wrote:
And anticipating your objection: most of the ultra high slope jumps also cannot be done reliably unassisted; so if you want to take out one, you have less reason not to take out the other.
In my opinion, anything that has been done at least once in real time and doesn't involve abusing a glitch, could be included. We should try to reach an agreement about what can be considered a glitch and what can't, which I am sure that won't be easy. :P
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3
xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D
Help improving TASVideos!
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Location: Mesa, Arizona, USA
The goal of this site is generally to showcase how a game programmed by sub-optimal programmers can be played by an optimal human with certain objectives.
If I understand what is being requested in this topic, it is simply a run that shows how a game programmed by optimal programmers would be played by an optimal human given certain objectives.
It is generally obvious what this is in the context of S3K. The set of legal moves is well-defined, as are the intended possible routes through the levels, and there are no bugs that inhibit the intended play (except for the Tails level-wrap death bug in Icecap 1). Undoubtedly there'll still be some ambiguity though (for instance, is calling Tails to respawn early an intended action, or a bug?).
In principle, any well-designed game could have such a category on this site. Such videos would be essentially unable to be further improved once made if lowest completion time is still a primary objective. But they also would redefine the purpose of the site to also show "idealized playthroughs" instead of just "speedruns", which may not be desirable.
I really do understand and appreciate the point of this though. On many occasions I have watched playthroughs on Youtube of games that I'm interested in experiencing as intended by the designer, yet I do not want to take the time to buy and play myself. Sometimes it is frustrating that a human is still the one playing the game, whereas this concept removes the ability to fail or waste time.
Zeupar: defining glitches gets really tricky sometimes. Slope jumps may not break the physics engine or involve going through walls, but it seems likely they were not known about by the developers (or at least the developers did not expect them to be used), judging from the level design.
Or maybe they did know about them and left in the possibility that they could be abused, either because they didn't care or as a bonus to the dedicated player. It's a judgement call.
I say that a "glitchless" run should be a sequence of steps, each of which a normal console player can understand, but applied with precision and planning that would normally be impossible. Mysteriously jumping higher than normal wouldn't qualify under that set of conditions.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
The goal of this site is generally to showcase how a game programmed by sub-optimal programmers can be played by an optimal human with certain objectives.
I always understood that the aim of this site was to provide entertaining movies of video games played with access to tools.
These goals can overlap, no doubt.
They can also be seperate...
Otherwise this topic would not exist?
The main goal of the site is not to break games and it never was. Otherwise there are quite a few runs that would never be published. It has always been to make entertaining movies that are beyond what a human can do. Now, what counts as entertaining has changed over the course of the sites history, but that is still the main goal. Low glitch runs in no way conflict with this, as long as it's obviously beyond human ability, and usually inhuman precision covers that aspect.
It appears obvious that the screen wraps by default (interestingly enough the programmers forgot to set that property in Sonic 3 alone if you play as Tails, so he will always die on the first slope unless you manually reset the wrap property by entering a bonus stage or a special stage).
The fact that the camera goes nuts if you look down and jump is just a glitch that can be exploited. So the definition should be probably reworded to "abuse" instead of "use", or "does not use the glitch that happens in vertical wrapping levels".
