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There is a reason why it's spelled that way:
TSA wrote:
That's part of the joke. Because GANNON-BANNED was born from people spelling it "Gannon", I decided the offense needed to be part of the name. And since "GANNON' and "BANNED" are both six letters in length, and share two N's in the middle, it looked cool. Thus, it is GANNON-BANNED, not GANON-BANNED.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
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-Emulator time attack videos do undermine legit runs despite their intention to entertain.
You can't please everyone. Many people enjoy watching these "perfect" runs which are theoretically possible but in practice impossible for a human to do. Some of these people might find it boring to watch a "legit" video with tons of imperfections.
So you agree with the argument then? Time attacks, being more entertaining to watch, do undermine pure speedrun videos?
People are misinformed of how these videos are made, so they are accepted as legit runs. Emulators can be used to create cheated runs that can pass themselves off as world records.
The problem is not so much that people are misinformed (which is something we can't avoid, no matter how many disclaimers we include to every possible place) but the reaction of people when they find out: Instead of thinking "ah, I understand now, silly me" they will often start a holy war against the "cheaters".
When I first saw the SMB3 timeattack by Morimoto, I did not know anything about timeattacks, but I immediately realized it was not a speedrun, but a tool-assisted run (it's quite obvious IMO). I was not disappointed at all, but I enjoyed it. Too bad most of the people are not intelligent enough to realize the same thing.
It's not a matter of intelligence, but one of ignorance. You aren't any less intelligent for not being able to tell the difference between a speedrun and a time attack. If a run is played through really well, it does not necessarily have to be a time attack.
The other concern the argument addresses is a long term one: how time attacks can be used deceptively. It is still difficult to tell a speedrun from a time attack: I've recorded my ALttP run both on real console and on ZSNES, and I tell you it is still difficult to tell them apart which is very alarming to serious players of the game trying to compete for records. In addition, many legit players are now being accused of having used emulators to do their runs. TSA mentioned to me that his ALttP run was thought to have been played on "Famtasia", which is rediculous. The art of making time attacks is becoming more widespread; players need to make good use of the tools instead of using them to decieve.
-Emulators allow poorly skilled gamers to produce videos that are faster, better, and far more entertaining than pure speedrun attempts of highly skilled gamers.
Is this a bad thing?
Yes and no. Yes, because it allows average players to demonstrate their creativity with the use of rerecording. No, because of what I just mentioned about world records.
An unskilled person making a timeattack of almost any game will most probably get a much much worse result than the currently existing timeattacks in the nesvideos page.
Michael Fried beat my Kung Fu time attack despite not having heard about the game until recently. So it is not always true. I'm not sure what you mean by an "unskilled" person making a time attack; you just said you don't need gaming skills to make them. Perhaps you meant inexperienced?
You may not need gaming skills to make a timeattack, but you need lots of other skills.
But what skills are required in time attacks that aren't already present in pure speedruns? There are still some minimal gaming skills required, since you still have to sit down and play every second of the game, savestates or not.
I disagree. It's cheating only in a certain context.
Cheating: To violate rules deliberately, as in a game. The problem lies with the fact that many of these rules are implied and not explicitly written. Would it be ok to use a game genie code that allowed you to slow down the game?
You cannot do the preceding on a regular NES and it gives you an unintended and unfair advantage. An advantage that legit players will never have.
Advantage on what? We are not making speedruns.
relates back to the world record argument. The people of this forum are honest which is what speedrun fanatics don't understand. However, I have seen quite a few people try to impress me with a time attack acting as a pure speedrun, their names I will not disclose.
This is bending the truth way too much.
Not having a 10-seconds initial screen in each video explaining every little detail on how the video was made is simply a question of practicality.
It doesn't have to last 10 seconds. It only takes one sentence to say it. Which is the question of this forum topic. I'll get back to this in a second.
------------------------------------------------------------
Counter-Arguments to the Time attack Debate
Although I agree with much of the concerns against time attacks, there are quite a few arguments supporting them:
-Time attacks can be used to educationally to improve future legit speedruns. In this sense, the time attack serves the speedrun player. Emulators can be used to find the ideal fastest time through a certain level, and give the player an idea of what near perfect play looks like. The player can then try to duplicate that in a clean run. This all works better if the person doing the time attack is the one who will attempt the speedrun. (In my view, this is the time attack's most useful application)
-The people who use time attacks to decieve are in currently in the minority.
-Time attacks do not focus on speed exclusively, which is what separates them from speedruns. Look at the Phil's Double Dragon run or some of the "aesthetic forms" of time attacks.
-Much of the negative feelings toward time attacks comes with binding of negatively connotated words such as "fake" and "cheated" to the videos. The word Famtasia sometimes has an undeserved negative connotation.
-The rules of what constitutes cheating are obscure, and thus to establish that time attacks are products of cheating is hard to justify.
-We should not allow the limits human ability to act as a barrier against what is possible in video games.
As for the movie message issue, I think one sentence stating that the runs are not legitamate, and that they were made with slow-downs and savestates is necessary. It will encourage others who make time attacks to do so as well, which may in turn discourage deceptively using time attacks for world records. Emulated time attacks and pure speedruns can be very similar visually, so it is important to state to the viewer exactly what they are watching. It will prove to the more serious speedrun players that time attacks are indeed for entertainment and not for personal pride. I would also suggest against using ambiguous jargon such as "tool-assisted theoretically perfect gaming demonstration" but instead to state it plainly, and simply. Instead of posting a link to the main site, why not just post a link directly to the why/how page?
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I will now make an attempt to summarize all the arguments that I have seen throughout these past few months over Emulated Time Attack Videos. Keep in mind that these ARE NOT necessarily my views. But here's a list of everything I can conjure:
-Emulator time attack videos do undermine legit runs despite their intention to entertain.
-A pure speedrun video will never do anything that can't be reproduced in a time attack, but this doesn't work the other way around. Anyone can reproduce the incredible feats preformed in time attacks by using emulators. But there are very few people in the world that can reproduce the feats of a legit run "authentically".
-People are misinformed of how these videos are made, so they are accepted as legit runs. Emulators can be used to create cheated runs that can pass themselves off as world records.
-Emulators allow poorly skilled gamers to produce videos that are faster, better, and far more entertaining than pure speedrun attempts of highly skilled gamers.
-It is far more difficult to do a pure speedrun than it is to make a time attack. There are psychological factors, like handling anxiety and nervousness when recording yourself playing continuously. There is no anxiety when making a time attack; just savestate, replay, or try again from the same spot tomorrow.
-Even though Time attacks are meant for entertainment, it is often forgotten that pure speedruns have the same aim. Legit gamers sometimes take that extra step to find ways to make their videos entertaining to watch. Saying "this movie was made for entertainment" is thus meaningless in that respect.
-Using savestates and slow-motion is in fact cheating. You cannot do the preceding on a regular NES and it gives you an unintended and unfair advantage. An advantage that legit players will never have.
-Time attack players have too much pride to honestly mention in their videos that the games have used slow-motion, savestates, and are illegitamate records produced with virtually no skillful play. Being clever is not a skill unique to time attacks.
-Time attack players have egos as well. The videos are not just for entertainment or education; they stamp their names on the runs just as in legit speedruns. The name Morimoto now has an almost symbolic meaning.
-Despite what is commonly believed there is a competition between legit runs and emulator-crafted time attacks. Both are trying to get the attention of the members gaming world and the general, but game-interested public. Time attacks are stealing the spotlight. We are all trying to impress!
I'll make a list of counter-arguments next. But I'm sure there are some comments already.
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He should still do something to let people know it wasn't done with save states or slow motion.
the links to the speed run videos are mostly on SDA so there is an explanation (along with strict rules forbidding emulators) there that the runs are legit, which is why I didn't bother to emphasize it at first. But I can't update my site until tomorrow because I don't have access to the FTP at the moment.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
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I made a video that is about 2-3 minutes longer than the time attack record on this site, but it's pretty cool and looks a lot more "professional"...
You already said it's more accurate, so why not redo the run to improve your time if it's a couple minutes slower than Genisto's? Wouldn't that be considered "professional"?
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simply saying "this video was created for entertainment and is not legitamate record" should silence the critics. I don't think mentioning the word emulator is enough because you can do no-save speedruns on them.
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hopefully someone will be able to convince me to finish up the speed run today
if you get it out of the way now, you won't have to worry about it, and you can work on your other projects, like the SMB3 speedrun. :)
(I've been extremely lazy lately as well.)
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can u do everything fast without dying??????
Isn't that the goal of a speedrun? From what I vaguely remember, SnapDragon only got hit once during his run and didn't die. I'm sure in time I can do as well.
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I don't understand why TG allows saving, I think a no-save run would be far more impressive. DKC isn't that long of a game, and I think I good player would manage without them. I didn't have time to record myself today, but I did the Kong Jungle levels and already I am faster than the times I posted.
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the Candy's save point times are from the game's own timer, but the game doesn't add the time you spend moving on the map in the final total. So the final total is probably game time; I'm not sure how the individual levels were timed, be it by stopwatch or using the savepoint. There's probably plus or minus a couple of seconds of error.
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Maybe it was a typo.
I sure hope so; it has been up there for quite some time now, which is discouraging. Well, I came across Iron Knuckle's completion times for each of the levels:
Level Time
------------------------ -------
Jungle Hijinxs 00:47
Ropey Rampage 00:54
Reptile Rumble 00:54
Coral Capers 00:52
Barrel Cannon Canyon 00:57
Candy's Save Game (00:04:24)
Very Gnawty Lair 00:18
Winky's Walkway 00:30
Mine Cart Carnage 00:12
Bouncy Bonanza 01:12
Stop 'n Go station 01:09
Candy's Save Game (00:07:45)
Millstone Mayhem 01:34
Necky's Nuts 00:26
Vulture Culture 01:19
Tree Top Town 01:21
Forest Frenzy 01:54
Temple Tempest 01:05
Candy's Save Game (00:15:24)
Orang-utan Gang 01:50
Clam City 00:58
Bumble B Rumble 00:47
Snow Barrel Blast 01:48
Slipslide Ride 01:21
Ice Age Alley 01:10
Croctopus Chase 02:27
Torchlight Trouble 00:55
Candy's Save Game (00:26:40)
Rope Bridge Rumble 01:09
Really Gnawty Rampage 00:27
Oil Drum Alley 01:50
Trick Track Trek 03:10
Elevator Antics 01:43
Candy's Save Game (00:34:19)
Poison Pond 01:15
Mine Cart Madness 01:42
Blackout Basement 01:22
Boss Dumb Drum 00:55
Tanked Up Trouble 02:37
Manic Mincers 01:30
Misty Mine 01:32
Loopy Lights 01:30
Candy's Save Game (00:46:42)
Platform Perils 02:25
Necky's Revenge 00:35
Gang-plank Galleon 02:25 +
-------------------------------
Grand Total 00:52:07
not the fastest, but it gives a general idea of how it should be done (I have to download SnapDragon's run again; I don't have it on this machine). I am going to record myself doing the entire Kongo Jungle and Monkey Mines levels tomorrow; I'm quite sure I can reach those times.
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I've been wanting to do a pure speedrun without savestates/slowdowns of this game for a long time, so this morning I popped in my Donkey Kong Country cart into the SNES and started practising. After a couple hours, I checked on the Twin Galaxies scoreboard for the fastest completion and to my surprise I noticed a time of 101% in 28:00!? I don't mean to sound like a major skeptic but I have a hard time seeing how that's possible. If you've seen SnapDragon's speedrun of this game, he plays almost flawlessly and manages a time of 50:00. Even with savestates, I don't know how you could shave off 22 minutes off his run. It could be a result of a glitch, but even so, TG denounces the use of glitches in speedruns (take Metroid for example). Maybe someone has an idea of how he managed it? Anyway, I'll be attempting this game and I'll post my times on here, and I'm hoping that there will be interest in doing a "Speedrun Competition" for DKC like there has been for SMB3, LoZ, and Yoshi's Island.
(and no, I have not abandoned ALttP, I'm currently halfway through optimizing the Dark World)
Edit: Bisqwit, would you consider making a section on the forum for these speedrun competitions? There are about 3 or 4 games with competitions going on so far and I think that it would be good to separate them from the more general or time attack discussions of the games. Also, they'll be easier to notice and will encourage more participation. :)