Joined: 4/17/2010
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You better try pacifist with taking damage. Requires rather rinteresting route.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I remember I did a "No subweapons, no damage" run for Castlevania. It was rejected for the goal choice, I wonder whether or not a Ninja Gaiden run will fare better.
I don't think so; mostly you'd just go slower in areas where you can't go around an enemy. As for subweapons, the game never makes your life difficult for not using them.
Feos's pacifist concept sounds more interesting, because the game is designed with the expectation that you'd be slaughtering everything in your path. Subverting that would be nontrivial, even given that you allow yourself to take damage. Ryu doesn't have unlimited health, after all.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Marx wrote:
feos wrote:
You better try pacifist with taking damage. Requires rather rinteresting route.
Xipo's run was rejected (pacifist) so i don't want it.
It was rejected because it took no damage -> avoided damage boosts.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I'd just say that the most entertaining pacifist NG would be one with the biggest amount of enemies. As in, NG 3.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Pacifist NG is not interesting.
No-damage NG is not interesting.
Pacifist+damage-boosting might be slightly more interesting, but not by much.
No sub-weapons is not interesting either: most existing runs use them almost exclusively for boss fights already, and replacing the spin-slash with normal sword slashes just results in repeated jumps with a few slashes while near the ground. (and using a different sub-weapon would be similarly boring)
In my opinion, the only viable alternative category for Ninja Gaiden would be 'minimum in-game time', but this would probably only differ from 'fastest real time' run by letting cut-scenes play 1-255 frames to manipulate the main RNG ($BF) for ideal weapon-tosser behavior, and some extra 30hz wiggling in a few screens to freeze the fractional component of the level timer ($62). But as the game doesn't display this time when you beat it, I wouldn't expect many people to care.
Also! Please stop making new threads for existing topics.
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Scumtron wrote:
Pacifist NG is not interesting.
No-damage NG is not interesting.
Pacifist+damage-boosting might be slightly more interesting, but not by much.
No sub-weapons is not interesting either: most existing runs use them almost exclusively for boss fights already, and replacing the spin-slash with normal sword slashes just results in repeated jumps with a few slashes while near the ground. (and using a different sub-weapon would be similarly boring)
In my opinion, the only viable alternative category for Ninja Gaiden would be 'minimum in-game time', but this would probably only differ from 'fastest real time' run by letting cut-scenes play 1-255 frames to manipulate the main RNG ($BF) for ideal weapon-tosser behavior, and some extra 30hz wiggling in a few screens to freeze the fractional component of the level timer ($62). But as the game doesn't display this time when you beat it, I wouldn't expect many people to care.
Also! Please stop making new threads for existing topics.
ng1 cannot be done without getting hit.
Jungon wrote:
if I was to have a Tool-Assisted real life ... I'd..
I could abuse death, just to see if it saves time ..
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Yep, that happens when taking a hit from a vertical position of 4, 5, 14, 15, 16, 25, 26, 35, 36, 45, 46, 55, 56, 65, 66, 75, 84, 93, 102, or 111 or jumping from a wall with a vertical position of 73, 82, or 91.
It happens because there is no cap on falling speed and because the game only checks if Ryu is in the eight pixel death zone at the bottom of the screen, but doesn't care if he passes it, so falling from the right position will just make him wrap around to the top of the screen.
I'd love for this to be useful in a TAS, but there just isn't anywhere in the game where it would do anything but waste time. If anyone ever makes a stupidly difficult ninja gaiden hack, perhaps a gap too large to cross without taking a hit and screen-wrapping like this could work though.
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It can be useful for a pacifist run. Does it work in other NGs?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
will this type of movie be accept?
I have improved xipo's ng1 pacifist
and your movie is absolutly improvable
#on first level you jump on trap floor ,it waste 1 frame try avoid it.
#first boss, you directly try to deal damage to the boss but you can't, first attack didn't do anything to boss so try doing the first attack earlier and make the second attack as first damage.
I'll post improved movie of xipo
Jungon wrote:
if I was to have a Tool-Assisted real life ... I'd..
I could abuse death, just to see if it saves time ..
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
The first attack does no damage, but it somehow allows the rest to take effect. Whenever I make the very first hit, it does no damage, but the other ones can. And the first real attack that can damage him can't be done earlier.
And if you mean the platform at frame 1736, it loses nothing, the speed is still 1.5 for all that place. But avoiding it will force me facing the warrior, losing frames jumping over him.
As for the goal, no damage run is boring as hell, because all those route / damage boost decisions look cool. If this one gets rejected, one can finally try the second game, that looks WAY more difficult for such a goal.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Made this yesterday:
Ninja Gaiden hitbox viewer script:
http://pastebin.com/aek7j1F0
Notes:
Ryu's hurtbox is a blue vertical line.
The enemies hurtbox is the red box (where your sword can hit them), however for your subweapons to hit them it must touch their projectile hurtbox which is the vertical line going through them. Spin slash does not count as a projectile and is a sword attack.
Objects (lanterns, bees, etc...) the vertical line is where you need to hit it with the sword, the outlined box is where you can touch to grab the pickup once dropped. This is the only thing I am somewhat uncertain of being incorrect because I only tested level 1. For sure the dropped item boxes are correct, it's only hitting the lanterns I'm unsure of, which shouldn't be a problem as lanterns are probably the least of someones interest when it comes to the boxes. I just don't feel like spending more time to verify it.
Made this yesterday:
Ninja Gaiden hitbox viewer script:
Super Cool.
Is it possible that the enemy boxes shown with this script don't necessarily mesh up with areas that will take damage from Ryu's attacks? For example, The level 1 boss starts taking damage two frames before the displayed boxes connect, and (rough guess) the top third of the 3rd boss's box doesn't take damage at all.
About the lanterns: seems close enough to me. And like you said, who cares if it isn't perfect?
Could your experience making this script provide any insight into getting something like the image in this post to happen? I figured that some understanding of the ROM would be needed to get the detail I had in mind, but since I felt a bit out of my depth and didn't really expect it to reveal anything useful for making a faster TAS that I didn't already know, I never got back to it.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Scumtron:
Did you watch my WIP above? I won't submit anything I end up with without your feedback!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Made this yesterday:
Ninja Gaiden hitbox viewer script:
Super Cool.
Is it possible that the enemy boxes shown with this script don't necessarily mesh up with areas that will take damage from Ryu's attacks? For example, The level 1 boss starts taking damage two frames before the displayed boxes connect, and (rough guess) the top third of the 3rd boss's box doesn't take damage at all.
About the lanterns: seems close enough to me. And like you said, who cares if it isn't perfect?
Could your experience making this script provide any insight into getting something like the image in this post to happen? I figured that some understanding of the ROM would be needed to get the detail I had in mind, but since I felt a bit out of my depth and didn't really expect it to reveal anything useful for making a faster TAS that I didn't already know, I never got back to it.
I tested the boxes on the first level boss, and they match up correctly. If the attack touches the border of the boss, no damage is given, but once they overlap he takes damage. It's possible he's doing his swing which pushes his box like 2 pixels forward and the lua engine is 1 frame behind (or is it one ahead?) causing him to get hit. So I think what the problem is, is the lua engine displays 1 frame late or something like that, not much I can do about that.
If all of the level 3 boss's box isn't hittable, there may be an exception done to him in the games hit detection function, I'm unsure. Everything I tested with has matched up correctly though.
As far as making something like that, I don't have much time and Ninja Gaiden isn't really a big interest for me, sorry.
Edit: I did notice the crouch sword attack box is wrong. Fixed and updated the link
Pasky13:
Actually it appears that the spin-slash just always goes off the swing animation hit box for the level 1 boss, and probably works similarly for other enemies with variable boxes. Interesting.
You're probably right about the level 3 boss, or could it just be a bug? His effective hit box when jumping always seemed pretty much the size and shape of the crouching hit box that your script shows.
The only other issue I've noticed is with the mind control orb on the 6-4 boss: slashes well outside the script-displayed box do damage. That said, thank you for making this, it's been lovely to see so many things visualized like this.
About the background visualization script: I didn't mean to sound like I was asking you to make it for me. I know you only bothered with this because mikwuyma on SDA asked you. But if you could say a little about how you knew where to find those arrays in the ROM, or how you got to "etype = 0x0438" (I had those addresses tagged as something vague and TAS-irrelevant myself, and had assumed that 0x0400-0x0407 would be the important ones for something like this) I would greatly appreciate it.
feos:
I have indeed watched your WIP, though I haven't analyzed it too closely. Providing some input on it (and finishing the game resource page I started) have been nagging at me for a while now, but I just haven't made the time for it. Do you have a more recent WIP now?
Notes:
Ryu's hurtbox is a blue vertical line.
The enemies hurtbox is the red box (where your sword can hit them), however for your subweapons to hit them it must touch their projectile hurtbox which is the vertical line going through them. Spin slash does not count as a projectile and is a sword attack.
Objects (lanterns, bees, etc...) the vertical line is where you need to hit it with the sword, the outlined box is where you can touch to grab the pickup once dropped. This is the only thing I am somewhat uncertain of being incorrect because I only tested level 1. For sure the dropped item boxes are correct, it's only hitting the lanterns I'm unsure of, which shouldn't be a problem as lanterns are probably the least of someones interest when it comes to the boxes. I just don't feel like spending more time to verify it.
