Video Plugin: Jabo's Direct3D8 1.6 (dont forget to check "Copy framebuffer to RDRAM"
Sound Plugin: Azimer's HLE Audio v0.56 WIP 1
Input Plugin: N-Rage`s Direct-Input8 V2 1.80a
RSP Plugin: Hacktarux/Azimer hle rsp plugin
The playback of this run comes to a speedy end by means of many glitches and using JPN rom. This rom can show the message quickly than others. They'll allow to complete this game within an hour.
All of the glitches and some techniques I used are only existing one. I deeply appreciated people's great discoveries and researches.
Incidentally, this run was made as just amusing movie for Japanese video site. After the putting on view in the site, I was proposed trying to submit to TASVideos. So this run contains some joking factors, slow parts and going through old route. That's why It'll able to be clipped several minutes off the records in the run.
However, as a result of thinking, I decided to submit because I won't try again in the near future.
Although opinions may vary on using JPN rom, I hope you like it.
The following glitches and techniques are mainly used:
Escape forest with water jumpslash ESS
Skip the owl with Deku Stick
Get Gold scale in childhood
Skip Door of Time
Steal Rod
Bottle Adventure
Skip Gerudo Bridge with Hookshot
Skip Ganon's Castle Trials with Bomb Hovering
SS to Ganon to keep Master Sword
adelikat: The ending input was way longer than necessary. I chopped it and replaced the movie file. This movie is sub 1 hour!
mmbossman: The two main goals of this site are to provide entertaining movies which are typically as fast as possible. However, sometimes one facet takes more precedence than the other. We have several well optimized movies which are less than entertaining to watch, and we have some that have known improvements but have been published because they are very entertaining. Usually these known improvements are small, however the improvements they provide to the previously published movie are usually small as well. Here, the improvement is clearly much more substantial.
So that leads us to two possible solutions: 1) accept this run for what it is, an entertaining run with some flaws that obsoletes one of the two runs we currently have which can be beat in real time, or 2) reject it due to known improvements and mildly suboptimal level of play. After reading through all the responses in the discussion thread, I feel it better benefits the site and our viewers to accept and publish this run. Do I wish this run integrated some more of the known tricks which have been pointed out? Sure I do. However I don't believe that it is a wise decision to await a "perfect" run which may never come, while in the mean time continuing to have a run published which is worse than a real time run. So I am accepting this submission.
This acceptance will not result in a change of policy regarding (U) ROMs being preferable to (J) ROMs. Any future improvements should use the (U) ROM, and any resulting time lost due to slower text screens will not be used to penalize that submission, just as any time gained from faster text screens was not factored into the judging decision for this run.
Aktan: Processing... (taking forever to audio sync it)
EZGames69: For anyone planning on encoding this in the future. Make sure you use the same plugins that are listed, especially the input plugin as using the wrong one can cause a desync. And also make sure "Raw Data" is checked in the plugin settings for the input plugin. and finally for the RSP plugin, make sure you select "set to process alists inside the rsp". That should be all.
Voted Yes. I thoroughly enjoyed this and am very happy to finally see a solid run that pulls together many of the currently known tricks. Well played and planned. I was surprised to see no stutter pauses, I assume this is due to playing with that framebuffer setting, that is a BIG plus.
I guess I should clear up these points:
1) This movie will not be rejected due to using the J ROM (that isn't to say it won't be rejected but that it will not be a factor)
2) If published a new run is still preferred to be a U ROM choice. Text has nothing to do with the improvements. Thus a U ROM can be a slower time than this provided that it is proven to be as a result of the text (which is on the author to prove).
3) A publication will not set a precedent for a J ROM for this movie or any other. Rather be an exception to the rule due to extreme circumstances.
These issues are non-debatable.
Also, people, please use some common sense.
So basically we could just replace all rules with "what the admins want that moment, so shut the fuck up". We have a word for that in german. It's called "Willkür".
How can this not set a precedent for using the jap rom when the rules say it does? It would be unfair for every TAS coming after it if they aren't allowed to use it. Sure a few experts on this site will know why the next TAS isn't as fast but the general public will just think it's sloppy or something. That's not fair to the people investing time in TASing this game.
No. Jesus Fucking Christ. While the rules state that a change of rom version is to be avoided unless the new version has obvious benefits, they also state that English text is always to be preferred, thus rendering English text an obvious benefit in accordance with the rules.
THE RULES DO NOT SAY THAT ACCEPTANCE OF A JAPANESE ROM SETS PERMANENT PREFERENCE FOR THAT LANGUAGE.
THE RULES SAY THAT A RUN USING JAPANESE LANGUAGE IS ALWAYS TO BE CONSIDERED AS A NEGATIVE WHEN DETERMINING WHETHER THE RUN SHOULD BE ACCEPTED.
THE RULES SAY THAT ENGLISH LANGUAGE IS ALWAYS TO BE PREFERRED EXCEPT IN THE CASE WHERE THERE ARE GLITCHES POSSIBLE ON OTHER VERSIONS THAT CANNOT BE PERFORMED IN THE ENGLISH VERSIONS.
Now, the acceptance of this movie on the J version is not in accordance with this, but there are a variety of extenuating circumstances to consider as to why an exception should be allowed in this one instance.
If you still refuse to believe that selection of Japanese in one instance does not set a permanent and unchangeable preference against the English version, I will have to accuse you of being deliberately obtuse.
Femke wrote:
...it seems like the fact that there is 5+ minutes of improvement on an hour long game is a fair basis to vote No.
...
I do realize that this improves the current run by something like 1h 30m, but I don't think that is reason enough to publish this one.
Considering that unpublication is never an option, I think that 1h 30m of actual improvement vastly outweighs 5m of possible but unrealized improvement. I cannot imagine any logically consistent arguement thought which would reject this over an expected time improvement of ~5m (which is route improvement, by the way, not so much movement optimization), while saying that it is fine for the current version to stay up despite 1h 30m of demonstrated improvement.
Now, I can concieve of an arguement based on the relative level of optimization of each movie's routes and tricks. Guanobowl may not have incorporated all the tricks possible, but the play was very tight and little if any motion or time was wasted, so it is entirely possible that this doesn't come anywhere near that movie's standard of play (as was the case of the JNX movie). I don't know, I haven't watched it yet.
However, you have to consider any vote against this run as a vote for keeping the current run indefinitely, since there is no projected timeline for the completion of the hypothetical optimal improvement. So any arguement for or against the acceptance of this movie should come from only of comparison between this movie and the published one (and possibly the rejected one in between).
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA
Wow, it's not everyday when I get home and find a new submission already with a 5-page (now 6-page) war. Anyway, on topic, thanks to ghostrr for an updated nicovideo link! I watched the movie on there, and here are some condensed thoughts (nothing particularly new compared to other posters though):
The (J) ROM was less entertaining because there are so many cutscenes with text I don't understand now. However, I don't think that the ROM choice got in the way of what was important: the tricks. As a result, I find the ROM choice to be a nonissue, and I'm fine with what adelikat mentioned concerning the ROM choice... this topic has already been beaten to death.
There are good tricks in this run. Not every known trick is in there, and the tricks aren't fully optimized, but they are there and they are entertaining. This run shows off things that a casual OoT-loving audience would like to see.
There are definite speed-entertainment tradeoffs, such as the odd mushroom in the witch's place. I was also amused by the antics during the descent down Ganon's Tower with Zelda. Bomb-head is also amazing. These antics may have lost a little time or incurred lag, but I'm willing to let those slide. (A fully improved run should have fewer of those tradeoffs, though.)
For me, the only important question is: is this run better in the technical department than GuanoBowl's? They're both unoptimized, but I do believe this run is better.
Yes, there is a "fully optimal" run coming in the future, but I think that given the circumstances of the old run, this run deserves to be published in the interim. When the new optimized run comes out, I'd love to see it, but until then, this seems like a better run to have displayed on the TASVideos page.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically.
Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.)
Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html)
Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature!
Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
First, I'll point out before anyone else does that the odd mushroom is not a tradeoff; you need to take it out twice no matter what.
I watched the run with the new nicovideo link. This run is much more optimized than GuanoBowl's as well as using most of the newer tricks. Whereas JNX's submission didn't really pass the eye test for pure impressiveness as a TAS, this run passes with flying colors in my opinion. It's true that a better run could surpass this run in many ways, but this run doesn't have any obvious failings for what it is.
When you get down to it, I think this run is the TAS that people were expecting to see up until about six months ago. Maybe it doesn't have all the route choices and movement optimizations that would usually be expected today, but it's far better display of the game's potential than our current run from several years ago.
As embarrassing as some people consider it to be to have GuanoBowl's run up on the site, I think it would be even more embarrassing to not replace it with this run. Yes, it's suboptimal, and yes, it unfortunately uses the J rom, but it's not every day that a quality Ocarina of Time TAS is made. Someday, hopefully soon, the Zelda TASers will make a great run on the US run that surpasses this one in every way, but until that time, I think this one is a good placeholder.
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
Am I the only one here that thinks it'd make sense to separate runs according to language? I can imagine far less drama if this were so... publications of the same game across multiple languages could cause a bit of redundancy though, despite being part of a possible solution. Who knows.
Though, I'm guessing the effort needed database side could be too much. @.@
[*]There are definite speed-entertainment tradeoffs, such as the odd mushroom in the witch's place.
Are you talking about him pulling out the Odd Mushroom twice in the Potion Shop? That's the result of the game itself; you always need pull the Odd Mushroom out twice because it's not recognized when you pull it out the first time.
Joined: 4/18/2006
Posts: 179
Location: East Petersburg, PA
I watched the whole thing. My thoughts:
Pros:
-Uses major glitches found in the last several years
-Sidehop (remember backwalking? Lol)
-ISS
-No Temples
-Less time than the published run (less than half the time)
-Best COMPLETED run (non of this, "Well, it could be faster..." crap, since I don't see a better run that someone actually finished)
-DoT skip
-RBA used
-Stole the fisherman's hat right off his head!
Cons:
-Japanese
-Optimization/modified route would reduce the time
-Took sleep away from me
Overall, pros outweigh cons, so I voted yes. YOU HEAR THAT?! Yes is the correct answer IMO.
"I think we can put our differences behind us... for science, you monster."
I would really like an example where a game was switched from japanese to english without the english version having a hughe glitch the japnase one doesn't. Can you bring me one?
Can you find any examples of English being switched to Japanese?
And this.
Oh, and BTW, I'd like to remind people of the new clause that was added to the Judge Guidelines after the Mega Man 4 submission.
**While it is expected that the new run should use all tricks and techniques known at the time, it is not uncommon for new time-saving techniques to be found during the latter stages of making a run. Ideally, the run should be restarted to allow for inclusion of these new discoveries, however if restarting will be especially time consuming, exceptions can be made to this rule per a Judge's discretion.
Yes, we're aware of improvements. But this run can be accepted if the judges choose. And I hope they choose yes. Because damn this game was broken like your momma.
Joined: 6/11/2006
Posts: 818
Location: Arboga, Sweden
I don't see the issue. I must be fucking drunk.
- We've been having a suboptimal run on the site for a long time.
- There's apparently a new, optimal run coming this summer with 100% guarantee.
- Summer is tops 4 months away.
-------------------------------------
This leads us to, there shouldn't be any problem in HAVING THIS RUN PUBLISHED FOR THOSE 4 MONTHS! There won't be any fucking harm done. And there has been word going on about "how a new run of game X will appear with 109% certainty" and it has just not happened within the promised time frame.
Unless, of course, there's an ego-part included. And if you're TASing for ego and trying to get a run of a game you are trying to TAS rejected just because you want to be the sole master of that game is just below pathetic. I hope that this is not a personal thing, that it isn't an ego thing.
This reminds me of Saturn during his worst times of rage. "No, don't TAS this because you will fail and only mine will be good enough :-)". We didn't like it then. We don't like it now, when others are doing it either.
Plus, it's more awesome to obsolete a somewhat optimal run then an super-suboptimal run. And what's best is that this game provides average TASes at best. I'm sorry. But that's how it is due to the game's limitations.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
I would like to point out the following:
In the time it takes to watch Guanobowl's 2006 attempt you could instead watch this one in its entirety, plus these others:
- Link's Awakening DX (1:00:02.68)
- Legend of Zelda (24:04.05)
- Zelda II (5:43.47)
and there would still be time for a sandwich.
So I vote yes.
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
Swordless Link wrote:
Swordless, Grunz you care to publish on a site that is not a dictatorship in the future? ;D
That's sounding better and better by the minute, Slowi. :)
So wait, I'm confused. Are you bitching because people higher up are voting to publish this run and as such disagreeing with you? Or are you bitching because you wanted to take all the glory for making a new run that obsoletes an old run by a sizable amount, and someone has beaten you to it? I can't see why a run made on the Japanese ROM would be any concern to you, because you should know that any improvements due to language changes are not considered to be improvements by the judges. So even if you submitted a run after this with certain sections slower due to more text you wouldn't be penalized for it. Also, apparently there's a quicker route which I assume you are using, so this run doesn't even pose a threat to a run you're supposedly working on.
So that just leaves the first two options..
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
well, no need to actually care about the language, because a really well TASed OoT run on the US version is still able to beat this TAS by a well amount of time ;)
if you care, I want this run not to be publish not because of the language, but because of the low level of optimizing. the runner was just not experienced enough to be able to do a fully optimized run. he also didn't aim for optimizing in most cases as he admitted in the TAS description, but I must say, he did an amazing job for this being his first TAS he ever did, though (someone told me, that this was the first TAS he ever did, not sure)
as I'm an OoT TASer myself, I just can't stand all the sloopiness shown in this TAS. bloobiebla set the level an OoT TAS must have and this TAS is far away from reaching the same level. in my opinion it's just not ok to publish such a run, because people, that are not really experienced with speed running zelda (not actually TASing) will think, that this guy did the most optimized and best TASer ever. it's sad enough, that most people on youtube still think, that guano's TAS is the best TAS ever made :/
when I or anybody else works on a TAS he works hours and hours on every little thing to really optimize it, but when you then read people calling this brilliantly played you start to think:
"why am I actually trying to optimize? it's pointless, the average viewer won't notice, so let's just make a quick TAS without trying to optimize at all"
I hope you understand, what I've written the right way. I'm not trying to say, that I could easily beat this TAS within one day of work, because I'm so awesome, I just want to say, that publishing this TAS would be a step back into the wrong direction ;)
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
MrGrunz wrote:
if you care, I want this run not to be publish not because of the language, but because of the low level of optimizing.
So this is what TASvideos is becoming: an obsession with optimization to the point we have no iterative improvement? Here, I thought it was all about godly reflexes and entertaining our viewers.
Oh wait, it is:
http://tasvideos.org/WelcomeToTASVideos.html wrote:
Using these tools, we overcome human limitations to complete games with extremely high precision, entertaining our viewers as our players tear through games at seemingly impossible speeds. The end result of this process is simply a series of key-presses which could theoretically be performed on the original hardware.
No wait, that can't be true either, because we have an Ocarina of Time run that is 7 minutes slower than an unassisted run. Sometimes I wish that were a joke, but it really isn't.
So, let's see; what does this run provide that our current one does not?
A run faster than the current world record for unassisted runs
Less boring parts (fewer cutscenes, less backwards walking)
A more accurate demonstration of what a TAS is.
More wtf glitches
Many more improvements outlined earlier in the thread
So why are we voting no again?
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
hmm Raiscan, to me this website is about TASing a game to its limits, so saving every fucking frame possible, while still trying to entertain.
in most cases and also in OoT perfection brings the entertainment value you want. speed leads to entertainment, that's my opinion ;)
and yes, tasvideos is about obsession with optimizing or what do you think do TASers try to save every fucking frame possible? This whole website is build on the competition between the many TASers trying to beat the games faster and faster
I don't see what the problem is. This IS the best TAS available at this time.
When the new TAS comes out, your TAS, it will blow this one out of the water, and you will show the world what TRUE OOT TASing is! Call this one a ... teaser, if you will.
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
I'm not saying that we shouldn't aim for perfection with out movies. All I'm saying is that it should be more of an iterative process. Currently as it stands here we have an improvement. It's not perfect, and the runner has no intention of improving it, but it's still better than what we have. I don't understand why this is a problem.
I agree with you completely that the ultimate goal is to have a polished run, but this shouldn't be a Start-->finish with no steps in between. TASing can and should be a gradual process aiming towards perfection.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
But it's perfectly fine to have a much, much less optimized run remain published?
Thats not whats being argued here. When Guano was TASing OoT he was using an unstable version of Mupen which desyncs just for shits and giggles. It's also very demoralising for the runners psyche, as he must constantly rewatch and settle for something which he deems acceptable, rather than something which he feel can't be improved on, which is usually the case for most competent and experienced TASers. Not to mention that there was a constant stream of discoveries which he did go back to implement, but some of them he didn't which was understandable, as that would mean having to redo maybe 1/2 or 2/3 of his WIP. I feel Guano apart from 1 or 2 minor tricks did implement the best routes and strategies relative to the current knowledge at the time. The currently submitted run however does not, which is cause for rejection.
As you already know our last released WIP is improveable, but this run doesn't even beat an outdated WIP made from a year ago once the differences in text speed are ajusted.
in my opinion it's just not ok to publish such a run, because people, that are not really experienced with speed running zelda (not actually TASing) will think, that this guy did the most optimized and best TASer ever.
The hell? So, it's specifically because the average viewer will think this is such an awesome TAS that you're wanting to block it? Head. Desk. Head. Desk.
Is this really what TASing is? An esoteric software engineering exercise for a small clique of elite gamers to enjoy amongst themselves for their towering achievements in practically applying technical expertise and knowledge? Honestly, in some ways this site is like an academic symposium full of professors droning on endlessly about their thesis research, and I mean that in both the most complimentary and the most derisive sense possible. Yes, the technical prowess of a competent TASer inspires me with both respect and awe, but on the other hand, I've never much cared for the frame-count dick measuring contest so many of them seem fixated on.
If a fully optimized run were to beat this one by a full 5 minutes, how many times more entertaining can you promise it would be to the casual TAS watching public that this run is somehow going to ruin them? Honestly, I think you're more afraid that you don't think that a fully optimized run can actually squeeze any more entertainment out of this game. Faster it might be, but will it be that much more amazing to the average viewer? In other words, it sounds like you're saying your anxious over whether this run might be everything a Zelda 64 TAS needs to be. If not, prove me wrong not by trying to sabotage this run, but by amazing me with your own.
yes.... erm but wait
its OoT or? so it does not matter really... since OoT has "auto reject option" enabled...
and why? because there is allways a 10 minute intro which is "improveable" :P aha!
well, no need to actually care about the language, because a really well TASed OoT run on the US version is still able to beat this TAS by a well amount of time ;)
if you care, I want this run not to be publish not because of the language, but because of the low level of optimizing. the runner was just not experienced enough to be able to do a fully optimized run. he also didn't aim for optimizing in most cases as he admitted in the TAS description, but I must say, he did an amazing job for this being his first TAS he ever did, though (someone told me, that this was the first TAS he ever did, not sure)
as I'm an OoT TASer myself, I just can't stand all the sloopiness shown in this TAS. bloobiebla set the level an OoT TAS must have and this TAS is far away from reaching the same level. in my opinion it's just not ok to publish such a run, because people, that are not really experienced with speed running zelda (not actually TASing) will think, that this guy did the most optimized and best TASer ever. it's sad enough, that most people on youtube still think, that guano's TAS is the best TAS ever made :/
when I or anybody else works on a TAS he works hours and hours on every little thing to really optimize it, but when you then read people calling this brilliantly played you start to think:
"why am I actually trying to optimize? it's pointless, the average viewer won't notice, so let's just make a quick TAS without trying to optimize at all"
I hope you understand, what I've written the right way. I'm not trying to say, that I could easily beat this TAS within one day of work, because I'm so awesome, I just want to say, that publishing this TAS would be a step back into the wrong direction ;)
So because Duke Nukem Forever will be the greatest FPS of all time, nobody can release an FPS until it is released?
The promised OOT run is apporaching DNF-level vaporware. Let's not lie to ourselves.
