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Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1940
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Joined: 1/3/2006
Posts: 334
Loved the boss fight. I am looking forward to the finished movie :)
Joined: 6/22/2010
Posts: 8
I for one, support this run. :)
Joined: 7/28/2006
Posts: 61
Well it's been a LOOONG time since I last came here, but I was extremely bored today and for some reason I all of a sudden remembered this site and how awesome TASing was. So of course first thing I do is check these games and find that after like 5 years neither run is finished yet :P Not that I blame you guys lol, but at least there's tons of progress on both games and the WIPs look amazing.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1940
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Hi Vespa! Long time =). The Ages run will be restarted once we are done with Seasons. And that run has had some active progress lately. We just got the Magic Boomernag and I'm currently fighting the statues in that room. Main holdup for the run is the manipulation, as it is a painful process. But we are struggling the best we can!
Joined: 7/28/2006
Posts: 61
Oh I didn't realize Ages was being restarted, I was just watching the videos on SwordlessLink's channel and thought both games were being worked on. Anyway I can't wait to see the finished run.
Joined: 9/16/2012
Posts: 6
Hi all, I'm currently attempting a TAS of Oracle of Ages. Being very new to the concept of TASing, I've created a small WIP and want to post it so I can get your guys' advice on anything suboptimal in the run. I already am aware of one problem: during the earlier parts, sometimes I will walk by a wall and also be pressing against the wall, which turns out to be slower. For example if my character is moving diagonally up and to the left toward a horizontal wall, when the character reaches the wall, it takes less frames to walk up when only pressing the UP button as opposed to walking up by pressing both UP and LEFT. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/267140124/Legend%20of%20Zelda%2C%20The%20-%20Oracle%20of%20Ages%20%28USA%29.vbm
Joined: 9/16/2012
Posts: 6
No interest? Well here is my redone WIP, and this one goes up to the beginning of Spirit's Grave. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1802521796/OoASeriousAttempt.vbm Feedback would be great if anyone has any!
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1940
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
When you need to press a button at the earliest frame in a menu for example, never turbo the A button like that, as it means you can lose one frame. Instead try to press it for one frame at the earliest time. Also, when you go through text conversations, it's best if you turbo A and B, so that you can press a button for every frame instead of every seconds, speeds up the text a lot. Each time you did, if you slash your sword to cancel the digging you save 1 frame. Enemy manipulation is one of the hardest parts in TASing the Oracles. You'll have to try to add extra slashes and such in order to get the enemies in better locations. Don't just go with what you get on attempt 1, but try to improve it many many times. Here's a WIP of a linked Oracle of Ages TAS that I'm currently working on (Swordless will join the project later on): http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1236917677/OoALinkedTAS.vbm
Joined: 9/16/2012
Posts: 6
Thanks for your reply. That was a lot of helpful feedback! Your current WIP looks fantastic so far and watching it made me realize a lot of suboptimizations in my TAS. Keeping your advice in mind I decided to take your TAS and continued on with it to the boss fight. Here's a link to it: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1403106408/OoALinkedTAS.vbm Would you say that is an acceptable boss fight for a TAS?
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1940
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Did a test of the fight, improved it by 74 frames: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1623815005/1OoALinkedTAS.vbm However, more stuff in that WIP has to be redone, as I need better manipulation for item drops from bushes, which is what I recently have been working on with this run. And my TAS focus is currently on A Link to the Past, so this is right now on hold more or less.
SBD
Player (169)
Joined: 10/3/2012
Posts: 17
Hi, I made a route for the game since I've found a few glitches recently and I do'nt know if they are already known. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1856296240/OoALinkedTASroute.vbm Some explanations: I equip the Peace Ring because it enables a keyskip in dungeon 5 that saves about 40-50 seconds but it means that you will have slower fights up until that point and you'll also have to change the ring again. It might still be faster though. You can also do this keyskip with bombchus or the boomerang but getting either of these takes forever. After I get the mystery seeds, I walk back to Ambi's palace and trigger the cutscene where I get bombs but do not trigger the one that takes me to the palace. So when I trigger that cutscene later on, the game puts me into some kind of cutscene mode (because it expects the other cutscene to happen right away). This allows me to get over whirlpools, which is useful to get to dungeon 8. However, while you are in this cutscene mode, the path to dungeon 8 doesn't open when you push the armos statue so you have to end the cutscene mode. This is done by exiting the raft. Going ashore after swimming doesn't have the same effect so you'd have to play the harp. The game would put you back to the past immediately and end the cutscene mode. I found out that when you're stuck in a bush (for example after doing the textwarp glitch) and savewarp, the game respawns you at another position on that screen. Where exactly you respawn seems to be stored in the addresses 0000C638 and 0000C639 (the first one is the y-, the second one the x-value). AFAIK, following things change the value of these addresses: 1) a room transition on a cart 2) a room transition on an animal companion or the first entry of a screen that has an animal companion on it or calling your animal companion with the flute 3) a room transition on the raft or the first entry of a screen that has the raft on it So when I hop into the cart at frame 89000 or play the flute at frame 336000, that is to change these values and make sure I end up where I want to and not stuck in a wall. I think the screen where I meet Maple is the best one you can do it because you can push the seedling while waiting for her and play the harp immediately after you grab the potion. However, you have to make sure that you have exactly 29 monsters killed after her last appearance (the number is stored in 0000C641), then dig up an enemy and kill it to make her appear. An alternative would be getting the potion from a gasha nut. Note that in this route you can get all 8 Essences without rescuing Nayru. However, the Maku Tree doesn't want to give you the Maku Seed before you rescue her :( Also note that you can't skip Ricky because it causes a softlock when you talk to Tingle the first time without Ricky on the screen. And when I enter the Maku Tree at frame 313000 just to do nothing, you should of course get the L2-Sword and the seed satchel upgrade. I just did not know the passwords. I hope this is helpful and not too confusing... And I watched your WIP, Tompa (which looks awesome btw), and somehow saved one frame after the miniboss fight due to messing around with the subpixels (this could probably still be optimized). Also, when picking the file after savewarping, it's one frame faster to select the file with A and confirm the text speed with Start (or vice versa) instead of using A or Start twice. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/188605434/2-frames-saved.vbm
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1940
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Alright. First off, for the textwarping. My current route involves doing that directly after getting the Harp. While a S&Q (Great that you figured out how that works, I was previously clueless) will indeed put me inside the wall, I can still let the Like Like grab me, which will also be faster than to use a S&Q anyway. Planned route: Harp -> Warp -> Dance -> Bombs (There's a chest you can reach with pitwalking) -> Pegasus Seeds -> Bombflower -> Back to dungeon 2. This skips visiting the Mystery Seed tree (You'll recieve them at Crescent Island anyway). However, I don't know how this affect the Ambi's Palace cutscenes, if you are still able to the same glitch as you did. As I assume I still would have to watch the cutscene where you recieve the bombs first anyway? I don't know, will test :D. Another location for Maple that I thought of, is when you have to use the switch hook on the seed in the mountain, before the mine cart minigame. Might be faster, unsure. Nevet thought of doing D5 before D4 either. Saves a timewarp and the Cane could be used nicely in the dungeon. And for the D5 key skip, here is a method to do it without the Peace Ring: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/237507190/D5KeySkip.vbm One of the biggest surprises in the run was the shortcut to the Zora's Village. I really didn't think it could be used in more places. Are there any others as well? Maybe in Seasons, hmm. I need to check :D. Also nice that you improved that bossfight! I'll hopefully get back to this run soon, now with all the new stuff to work with as well. So thanks a lot for sharing your work, highly appreciated!!
SBD
Player (169)
Joined: 10/3/2012
Posts: 17
OK, I also tried to get grabbed by the the Like-Like, but couldn't get it (I guess I'm just stupid :( ). Skipping the bomb cutscene is pretty fast then. I also didn't think that you get the Mystery Seeds at Crescent Island (I mean why don't they take away your Pegasus Seeds then? I won't complain at least (: ) That also means that there are two cutscenes taking place at the same screen (that one and the one where Ralph talks useless stuff about not taking the front door) so I don't know what happens. If you would still have to watch the cutscene that would be kind of sad because that glitch would be very slow then but it's a pretty cool glitch :( I have not thought about the other Maple location. Yours looks faster to me. I was also trying to get that key skip with the damage boost but couldn't get it either (again stupid me). Forget about that stupid Peace Ring. It's also good that we don't have to time every fight in the game now to see if it's faster :) And that bossfight... I don't even know which one you're talking about =) I actually didn't care about fights in that route.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1940
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
You are certainly not stupid because of the like like or the key skip method. You are a genius for finding these things! I'll start testing with the bomb cutscenes tomorrow, should hopefully come to some conclusion on what to do with the run. The bossfight was the miniboss in my TAS that you improved. Have you found anything this awesome in Seasons as well? As I would be insanely interested in knowing :D!
SBD
Player (169)
Joined: 10/3/2012
Posts: 17
Thanks. I actually improved the movement after the miniboss. And I have only looked into Ages for now, not Seasons, sorry. EDIT: I did some testing with the cutscene mode and found out that you can enter the maze before dungeon 8 from the left. You'll be stuck in the wall but you can switch hook a darknut and play the harp to end the cutscene mode. The only problem with this it that you need to have the switch hook and harp equipped, so you can't use pegasus seeds. If you dive, you can reach a glitched area under the maze area from which you can enter a room at Symmetry Village and one at Rolling Ridge but you're stuck in a wall in both cases. Also, it seems that the cutscene where Ralph talks about the secret doorway deletes all the other cutscenes on that screen, so the glitch can still be in the run :) I also noticed that you can sometimes save some frames by moving diagonally into walls for one or two frames because of how the game handles subpixels. Here is how you would normally do it: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1216414145/1frame-slower.vbm And here I move into the walls at frames 30 and 200: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/124153027/1frame-faster.vbm You can also do it this way to get even better subpixels but it still saves just one frame: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/983727147/also-1frame-faster.vbm Of course, if you really wanted to optimize that for the whole run, it would be a hassle...
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1940
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I noticed that glitched underwater area as well. I did however forget that you can use the harp to deactivate the glitch so you can hookshot the darknut, very clever. Hmm, I didn't actually know that the game had subpixel detection. Very interesting though. Do you have the memory address for it? Also, here's a rough route that I have made: http://pastebin.com/jajJnRcw Ideas on improvements?
SBD
Player (169)
Joined: 10/3/2012
Posts: 17
Memory addresses are 0000D00C for x-subpixels and 0000D00A for y-subpixels (right next to the pixel addresses). 1 pixel is 256 subpixels and Link moves at exactly 1 pixel when walking straight and 181 subpixels when walking diagonally. In grass it's 192sp straigh and 135sp diagonally and on stairs 128sp straight and 90sp diagonally. When using Pegasus Seeds, he moves at 1p 128sp straight and 1p 15sp diagonally; in grass 1p 32sp straight and 203sp diagonally; on stairs 192 sp straight and 135 diagonally. Your route is exactly what I had in mind. However, you have to decide which Seed Satchel upgrades you want to get because both are kinda out of the way in the new route (Tingle won't give you his this time the first time you visit him because you only have 2 kinds of seeds at that point). So you could talk to the deku scrub in Fairy Forest after you get the feather and/or talk to Tingle after D3 or you skip both and trust in your luck manipulation skills :) If you do talk to the deku scrub, visiting the screen the Mystery Seed tree is on might be a good idea for a later Gale Seed warp. If you do not do that, you would do the warp to Zora King right after the Tune of Ages, then warp back to Lynna Village after the library (in any route the purpose of this is to save a time warp; it means a small detour to the Gale Seed tree though, as well as a worse switch hook in D8). Then you would complete D2, then D8 and then return to Zora King. If you do not talk to the deku scrub, then you might want to skip the L2-Sword, too; in that case, I'm not sure if doing D5 before D4 would be a good idea because if you do not have to go to Lynna City anyway, it is faster to go from D5 to D6 using the Text Warp from Ruined Keep.
Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 126
Hey, Tompa, one thing I'm wondering is this. Do you know if there's anything other than sheer chance that decides what Maple will drop when you run into her? Is there any obvious trick to farming her other than resetting over and over? I'm wondering because I'm making a 100% speed run route for a Let's Play on Youtube. Of course, I'm not going to have it be silky smooth, but I want the ROUTE to at least be efficient, you know?
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1940
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Well, it's basically just luck. There is however a method real time runners use in order to make her always drop a potion as well as getting 100 rupee from the ground: www.twitch.tv/theonly0/b/323923881?t=23m40s For this place, the RNG only changes a bit on the title screen, when you slash with the sword, dig and move to a different screen. TheOnly0 did a lot of testings and found a method for a 100% chance of getting the item he wants. A similar method to this can be used in order to get a specific ring or the Heart Piece. Though I have never researched anything on the matter. But other than that, no, there is nothing to do. SBD: Very useful info there with the subpixel stuff. I kinda knew there was something like that going on in the game, because of how annoying diagonal movement was. But I guess I failed to find the right address for it. For the Satchel upgrade, so Tingle will give it to you if you have 3 seeds? Didn't know that and I must have missed it in your run (If you did it...). If it is possible to get it from Tingle during the first visit, it might be worth it. Otherwise I planned to skip the upgrade completely. Good notes about the route stuff as well. I'll do some more testings to see what the best alternative may be.
SBD
Player (169)
Joined: 10/3/2012
Posts: 17
Tingle gives you the upgrade if you have three kinds of Seeds, no matter which. But in the current route we only have Ember and Pegasus Seeds so we can't get it. I also tried to work with the subpixels and managed to improve your WIP by 50 frames by the beginning of D1. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1215051063/1Improved-TAS.vbm There were other issues, as well, e.g. the menu lagging differently depending on the screen you're on. EDIT: Here's the whole thing, 111 frames faster. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1527833234/2Improved-TAS.vbm EDIT: Better luck manipulation http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1056839720/3Improved-TAS.vbm
Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 126
You know, it's unfortunate, but it seems when I try to play Tompa's WIP, it desynch's. Could someone please tell me how to solve this? EDIT: Alright, the settings of my emulator are as follows. I'm using 23.5 snv 374, I don't know what version of the game I have, though I BELIEVE it's the U.S. version, my controller setting is the default setting, and I now have Real Time Clock enabled.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1940
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
You'll need a v24. This emulator will work: http://code.google.com/p/vba-rerecording/downloads/detail?name=vba-v24m-svn-r422.7z. Very nice SBD! I haven't had time to work anything on OoA lately, or seen that WIP. But I'll get to it eventually.
Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 126
Cool. But, hey, Tompa, would you be interested in checking out a 100% speed run route I cooked up for a Normal Ages playthrough, and a Linked Seasons playthrough? It's all right here if you're interested... http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/the_legend_of_zelda_oracle_of_ages_normal_and_oracle_of_seasons_linked_100_rta_thread.html#the_legend_of_zelda_oracle_of_ages_normal_and_oracle_of_seasons_linked_100_rta_thread_8- And note, should you guys make a 100% based either entirely, or largely, based off of my route, I have absolutely no qualms about that, as I don't plan on actually making a run to submit to SpeedDemosArchive.com. I just wanted to come up with one for the sake of a Let's Play that I want to make.
Player (197)
Joined: 8/10/2013
Posts: 161
I figured I would post here to see if anyone was still interested in working on the ages TAS and to document some new findings recently discovered by theonly0 and one of his viewers (can't remember the name for the life of me, but he found that the expert ring could destroy crystals). If there is still interest in TASing this I would most certainly be willing to help. I don't know enough about TASing to lead the project though but I know some things. The tokay island trading sequence is now partially skippable. If you manipulate the expert ring from a gasha tree before you go to the island and equip it, you can punch the crystals blocking your way and get the sword back before the shovel. You can then make your way over to the trade store where the game assumes you have the shovel already and lets you trade for one of the items. You can then go back and collect the real shovel and trade it in for the other item. This skips having to make 2 trips through the cave to where the harp is located. This also technically lets you skip scent seeds, as they are only required to trade for your items in the shop, but this would require us to do a slower key in level 6. However, theonly0 discovered that there is a bush in level 3 that drops scent seeds even if they aren't already in your inventory. To note, these would be used to get the key in level 6 where you use scent seeds to kill the enemies behind the blocks and make them fall in the pits. These new discoveries save around 3 minutes or so, and this is a rough estimate not based off of perfect text mashing. Another neat thing about the expert ring is that when you have it equipped each punch does a spin attack of damage. This can be abused to one cycle the mini boss in level 3, the boss of level 4, and absolutely wreck veran. The catch is that you need to get this ring from a gasha tree, and it is impossible to get this ring on the first tree you cut down, so it must be manipulated from the second tree. TAS would make this trivial however, and theonly0 was able to manipulate it on emulator in real time using memory addresses. Also, there are "tiers" of rings levels one through five, and certain gasha spots can only yield certain "tiers" of rings. The expert ring is in tier 4 and thankfully, the yoll graveyard gasha spot can yield tier 4 rings, which makes this skip possible. I will create a pastebin with a general route for the TAS based on the new findings after I rewatch theonly0's past broadcast.
Projects: Banjo-Kazooie Any% with FFM
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