There is also the key on the ledge behind the red ironknuckle, on the route to the flute.
In warps there's really no time to fool around though. The red ironknuckle's key is the best possibility, but it would take more time than the level cancels. Warps is pretty much settled, I think. In warpless it would be perfect if only Link could jump high enough to reach it. But there is another key we could get in warpless.
It just depends how long it would take to get it. If I could get it less than ~10 seconds or so, then I think that warpless would be fastest with Magic-1, which would be interesting and another significant difference between warps and warpless. I don't know if it works though. Warpless has more to look at.
I think that the warpless movie should be left alone as it is without the crystal glitch. Change the branch label to 'skipless' or add 'all palaces' to it, if necessary.
The primary reason is that using the crystal glitch would go against the very reason that the warpless branch exists: to beat the game without skipping parts of it. The glitched branch completely breaks the game. The warps (any%) branch skips whatever can be skipped without turning the game into a mess. Using the crystal glitch in warpless would essentially turn it into a slightly longer version of the warps branch.
Another reason is that the newly published warps movie is now more different from the warpless movie than it was before. Using the crystal glitch in the warpless movie would make the two movies more similar. The reason to have different branches of a game is that they "offer compelling differences" (per Judge Guidelines). It would not make sense to make the movies more similar since the reason for the difference is not a 'flaw' in the warpless movie. The warpless movie was intentionally made to be longer to show more of the game, specifically more physical locations (towns, encounters, and palaces). Can you imagine if there were three Zelda II branches and none of them had the fight against Volvagia? That would be a crime against humanity.
An additional reason is that the fairy encounters, which are almost impossible to get, would be lost in a new warpless movie using the crystal glitch. The fairy encounters are an extraordinary technical achievement (by FatRatKnight). Even Zelda II fans might not be aware that it's possible to get fairy encounters in the Valley of Death because they are so rare. The TAS is likely the only time anyone will ever see them. Again, it is a compelling difference. It would be a major loss if they simply disappeared from the movie.
And so, to me it would make the most sense to leave the warpless (aka skipless) branch as it is and focus instead on the fourth potential branch, which would be 100%. The nature of a 100% branch would make it significantly different than the other three branches, including warpless.
I think leaving warpless as-is is perfectly reasonable. I also don't think defining 100% is trivial. It's more that just 'what counts as everything', which glitches to include can also play a role. For RTA, 100% All Keys is the most popular, but I've always found that ruleset fairly arbitrary. You could go all the way the other way with it as well, and do 100% with all glitches allowed. There's precedent for that style as well in RTA but for TAS does that mean l+r is allowed? Then, do boss kills count, or merely gem placements?
I've been thinking about which way would be most entertaining to TAS 100%. I think it's best not to do any serious gamebreakers, because if people are watching 100%, I think that they want to explore of whole game "in peace" without graphical corruption or other glitches that would make the game not "authentic." But otherwise it would be done as fast as possible, meaning warps are ok. And then for defining 100%, I think it should be:
-Attack/Magic/Life-8
-All Heart/Magic Containers
-All Link Dolls
-All inventory items
-All quest MacGuffins
-All spells
-All sword techs
-All keys
-All bosses
-All palaces
Exempt jars, fairies, and P-Bags because they are potentially infinite.
As far as I know, there's no modern RTA 100% run that requires max levels or all 1-up dolls. There is definitely precedent for all keys being required for 100%. As I glossed over before, and will do again, I think the actual All Keys category has some unusual restrictions. Regardless, I'd definitely omit dolls and max levels. Keys, I could take or leave.
The rest, though, is perfectly cromulent.
Arc wrote:
I think it's best not to do any serious gamebreakers, because if people are watching 100%, I think that they want to explore of whole game "in peace" without graphical corruption or other glitches that would make the game not "authentic." But otherwise it would be done as fast as possible, meaning warps are ok.
In terms of what exists for RTA, this describes something in between 100%, which is essentially anything goes (including scroll lock) as long as you get everything, and 100% No Major Glitches, which disallows glitch town/fairy fall and scroll lock but still lets you deathwarp to northern palace and do encounter skips. If I'm understanding you right, it sounds like you're talking about a No Scroll Lock run? An Any% version of that run exists, but I don't think 100% does, as of now.
Not to say that a TAS has to be constrained to RTA precedent, necessarily, but I think it's a decent starting point in terms of planning.
If you think it's useful, Arc, I could try to wrangle up some runners to post their thoughts?
Yes, 100% No Scroll Lock is an accurate RTA description. I don't see why the fairy glitch or any other warp should be arbitrarily excluded when they are obviously faster, since there is a TAS already specifically dedicated to not using warps. The goal here is 100%, not 100% warpless.
I don't understand how RTA runs are called 100% without max levels. How is it full completion when the levels are clearly not fully completed? Levels can be objectively measured and maximized. The Link to the Past TAS upgraded all items to the highest level (e.g. Sword-4) and obtained half magic. I don't know what the RTA argument is supposed to be, but I think the TAS needs all 8s.
Likewise, what is the justification not to collect Link Dolls? It makes sense to exclude P-Bags, jars, and fairies because there's an infinite supply of them and they aren't really "items." But there are only six Link Dolls. So, I don't see how the game is 100% without collecting 6/6 Link Dolls. Perhaps the most important point is that Link raises the Link Dolls over his head when he grabs them. They are clearly collectable items. I think the RTA community is wrong to exclude them from the 100% definition.
There's also a finite number of Keys and getting them seems rather obvious if the goal is 100%. But it's also perfectly fine to Fairy through a door before getting a key, if it's faster.
Yes, hearing from other runners would be insightful.
My understanding of the doll argument is that although you can permanently collect the dolls, they do not permanently upgrade your character. It's the same sort of logic that doesn't require every chest to be opened, for example, in Link to the Past. Or all Secrets in Legend of Zelda. Or keys, for that matter. So it's more of a what changes Link than a what changes the world approach.
The max levels point is a different affair. I'd put that in the same sort of place as grinding out max levels in an RPG. Or perhaps max bomb/arrow capacity in Link to the Past. They're not done, but in a way I think those sorts of goals basically boil down to "that's boring". In this case, though, I'm not sure it actually would be boring since farming gems is fairly reasonable. I've downgraded my feeling to mixed on that one.
An additional factor that convinces me to include Link Dolls is what happens with the 9000 XP upgrades. It acts like a normal level upgrade, but it gives Link the 1UP instead of the Level-9. And so although the game has infinite potential 1UPs, it does not have infinite Link Dolls. If, hypothetically, a Link Doll appeared in Link's hand during the 9000 XP upgrade, then I would say that there are infinite Link Dolls and therefore they cannot be considered part of a 100% run. But this is a clear-cut case where there are only 6 Link Dolls in the game.
The definition of 100% needs to be internally consistent, and so I think that the important questions are:
1. Can it be objectively measured and maximized?
Yes:
-Attack/Magic/Life levels (8/8)
-All Heart/Magic Containers (4/4)
-All Link Dolls (6/6)
-All inventory items (8/8)
-All quest MacGuffins (6/6)
-All spells (8/8)
-All sword techs (2/2)
-All keys (31?/31?)
-All bosses (6+2/6+2)
-All palaces (7/7)
No:
-P-Bags, Jars, Fairies, 1UPs (infinite)
2. If not infinite, is it a meaningful action or item toward the adventure (lowercase) of Link?
Examples of No:
-Reading every town sign
-Going in every house
-Touching every square on the map
It is true that Link Dolls and Keys are not "permanent upgrades" but they are both items that directly help Link achieve his goals. They also both cause a verifiable change to the menu (incrementing lives/keys).
Getting all levels to 8 is possibly the most interesting and challenging part because it requires the XP to be planned out beforehand. It also creates a "compelling difference" from the other branches because of the need to collect much more XP. Otherwise the levels would just be 6-5-1 or whatever again.
Here is a preview of 100% with everything before Parapa Palace
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/68592214198229296
Perfect death cycle again in Death Mountain (i.e. 1 frame slower would have lost 21 frames).
100% really is like a final exam of all accumulated Zelda II knowledge.
The rationale is that those glitches make the movie unwatchable. The 5-minute glitched movie exists for people who want to see the game played that way. From a few posts ago:
Arc wrote:
I've been thinking about which way would be most entertaining to TAS 100%. I think it's best not to do any serious gamebreakers, because if people are watching 100%, I think that they want to explore of whole game "in peace" without graphical corruption or other glitches that would make the game not "authentic."
It's not just a matter of technically gathering every item. It's the enjoyment of seeing the process of facing all the challenges that the Zelda II world offers. The priority on the site is entertainment. It's the difference between Moons (or Stars) and Vault.
I've been thinking about which way would be most entertaining to TAS 100%. I think it's best not to do any serious gamebreakers, because if people are watching 100%, I think that they want to explore of whole game "in peace" without graphical corruption or other glitches that would make the game not "authentic." But otherwise it would be done as fast as possible, meaning warps are ok. And then for defining 100%, I think it should be:
-Attack/Magic/Life-8
-All Heart/Magic Containers
-All Link Dolls
-All inventory items
-All quest MacGuffins
-All spells
-All sword techs
-All keys
-All bosses
-All palaces
Exempt jars, fairies, and P-Bags because they are potentially infinite.
I agree with this. Definitely avoid L+R and scroll lock as an entertainment tradeoff, but include all kinds of warps (maybe there are even warps between palaces that can be utilized in 100%?). I believe that maxing out levels will make the TAS more enjoyable to watch, as Arc's monster killing is always a blast, and you have so many more locations to visit where you can raise entertainment by killing monsters. I would personally not have included the dolls, but I have nothing against it, either.
Looking forward to watching this!
I agree with this. Definitely avoid L+R and scroll lock as an entertainment tradeoff, but include all kinds of warps (maybe there are even warps between palaces that can be utilized in 100%?). I believe that maxing out levels will make the TAS more enjoyable to watch, as Arc's monster killing is always a blast, and you have so many more locations to visit where you can raise entertainment by killing monsters. I would personally not have included the dolls, but I have nothing against it, either.
Looking forward to watching this!
Thanks. There won't be a warp from one palace to another because there's no incentive to revisit a previous palace with the 100% goal. But there will be at least one Fairy warp that hasn't been used in any previous movies. (It saves about 11 seconds.) There might be a second new Fairy warp, but I'm not sure whether it will work. I'll test it when I get to that point. I'm in Palace 5 right now. It's all planned out and so far there have been no major problems.
I made a full game playaround for Zelda 2! It involves using lots of entertaining gameplay, speedy actions, and cool combat that you won't normally see in speedruns. Check it out!
Link to video
It just depends how long it would take to get it. If I could get it less than ~10 seconds or so, then I think that warpless would be fastest with Magic-1, which would be interesting and another significant difference between warps and warpless. I don't know if it works though. Warpless has more to look at.
