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Arc wrote:
Kung Knut wrote:
Are any of the new techniques used in your warps and no warps runs also applicable in the glitched 5-minute run?
The warp-glitch run could use the encounter glitch on the bridge after exiting Glitch Town the first time (frame 1700). It could also use the encounter glitch on the bridge to Saria (frame 10000). So it looks like there are about 3 seconds of time saved.
There's one encounter glitch in the 5 minute run already, after the warp to maze island. We didn't really know what it was or how it worked, though, so it didn't get applied elsewhere.
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I'm tempted to say "why not go all out on 100% since it can be vaulted", but then given how there's already 3 zelda games with ACE glitches I'm worried that one will one day be found for this game, and make a potentially boring run redundant. Edit: Oh, and this game of course. :)
Arc
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Arc wrote:
The warp-glitch run could use the encounter glitch on the bridge after exiting Glitch Town the first time (frame 1700). It could also use the encounter glitch on the bridge to Saria (frame 10000).
I'm near the end of the "warp glitch" branch update. Encounter glitch at the double-bridge: saved 16 frames. Overworld manipulation going to Hammer: saved 5 frames. Encounter glitch at Saria bridge: saved 117 frames. Overworld manipulation because of unlucky bot in DM: deducted -1 frame. Encounter glitch at the first Maze trap: saved 23 frames. Encounter glitch at the second Maze trap isn't possible. Overworld manipulation when leaving the Maze: deducted -1 frame. Red jar drop manipulation in the Great Palace: deducted -3 frames. Death cycle #1 difference in the Great Palace: saved 12 frames (previous deductions undone). Pre-red fokka screen in the Great Palace: deducted -1 frame. Red fokka screen in the Great Palace: saved 11 frames. Death cycle #2 difference in the Great Palace: saved 53 frames (previous deduction undone). The Wall in the Great Palace: saved 4 frames. Ceiling walk in the Great Palace: saved 1 frame. Post-chute screen in the Great Palace: saved 2 frames. 153 238 frames saved overall. Does anyone have any other suggestions before I redo Dark Link? I didn't really examine anything other than what's listed above. Edit: I am Error. Frames saved updated.
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I had no other routing ideas besides what were included in the previous version of the glitched run. I wonder if there's a method to acquire the fairy spell without medicine, but I don't have any specific ideas.
Arc
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Arc wrote:
153 238 frames saved overall.
I sliced another 85 frames off after I had said that I might be ready for Dark Link. 238 frames saved now. After I improved the encounter glitch spots, I got a chain of great luck. The timing change led to an improvement on the first death cycle, which led to better luck at the red fokka, which led to additional improvement on the second death cycle. Note: the death cycle's 21-frame rule restores the frames that I gave up for luck manipulation, so those temporary losses aren't possible improvement spots, unless you can cut enough time to get into the preceding 21-frame cycle. I think it's Dark Link time now.
Inzult wrote:
I had no other routing ideas besides what were included in the previous version of the glitched run. I wonder if there's a method to acquire the fairy spell without medicine, but I don't have any specific ideas.
The new Holy Grail of potential Zelda II improvements would be forced entry into the 3 ladies' houses (Ruto, Mido, and Darunia) without the MacGuffin quest items. I've tried the encounter glitch on the left and right sides of the Mido lady's screen, but neither exits into her house. I don't know how you could wrong exit into it.
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Actually Arc, one thing comes to mind. In the published movie, after the second healer glitch we do the warp to king's tomb, to mido, to bagu's hut. I can't remember how good we were about checking this, but there's another way through Mido; this. It trades movement in the town for screen loads. e: there's also an alternate version of scroll lock where you enter the second door on glitch town. this changes where stuff loads in relation to link. also, if you pass the first door and return to it on a later pass through the glitch town, it changes how far the screen scrolls. these are things worth exploring. I guess I'm a liar. I have ideas.
Arc
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Inzult wrote:
Actually Arc, one thing comes to mind. In the published movie, after the second healer glitch we do the warp to king's tomb, to mido, to bagu's hut. I can't remember how good we were about checking this, but there's another way through Mido; this. It trades movement in the town for screen loads.
Oh, very interesting idea. I gave it a shot, but it ended up 20 frames slower.
Inzult wrote:
e: there's also an alternate version of scroll lock where you enter the second door on glitch town. this changes where stuff loads in relation to link. also, if you pass the first door and return to it on a later pass through the glitch town, it changes how far the screen scrolls. these are things worth exploring.
They do sound like ideas worth exploring. No idea what, if anything, what be the result. I'm going to submit what I have now, though.
Arc
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Awesome. I'll have to watch the VOD cause I'll be at work, but I will definitely watch.
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Arc
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Thanks for being on the show Arc, hopefully more players will want to do more shows like this in the future. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rebfiXzCrY0
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I've got too much love for this game. Regarding the Fairy Feet glitch, I've tried to achieve as much as I could yesterday evening, on Switch NES app (so US version of the game). I've done that for about 2 hours and a half, and got it like... 20 times maybe? I recorded the first ones but didn't actually count each one when I started being - slightly - more constant. My goal was mainly to see how much viable this could be in real time, and I have to admit it's so hard and precise that I don't think it's viable outside of TAS. Unless we can maybe find a setup to ensure we reach the right sub-pixel? Here's one of the recordings: https://twitter.com/Link_enfant/status/1238238762968027136?s=20 I haven't uploaded other ones yet, but feel free to let me know if that can be useful as a reference to anyone. I always switched sides to try the glitch both from the right and left of that forced encounter, so I have various recordings of both; sometimes with slashes to help stop my momentum, sometimes by just moving and no slashes. Sadly I don't have proper recording stuff so I'm currently stuck with Switch's internal feature which only produce 30fps video clips but well.
Arc
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Here are the technicals for the fairy feet glitch: 004D for Link's X-Position 03D6 for Link's X-Subpixel X-Position 248.000 is the edge of the left side of the screen. Tap left once to reach position 247.240 (triggers exit). Tap right next frame (warp achieved if X-Pos shows 248.000, if pressed too slow then 247.224). X-Position 239.240 is the edge of the right side of the screen. Tap right once to reach position 240.000 (triggers exit). Tap left next frame (warp achieved if X-Pos shows 239.240, if pressed too slow then 240.016).
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I was able to (somehow) save 2 frames on the first hit of Dark Link in the Warp Glitch TAS. I managed to continue to hit link up to 4 times until his hitbox would not co-operate with me, if someone is able to finish the fight, this could be submitted as a minor improvement. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/64421780152762130
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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Ok I've actually finished the fight now that I got some sleep, 2 frames improved on the Dark Link fight for Warp Glitch: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/64432019593285814 Encode: Link to video
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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I’m holding off on submitting this until either TASEditor or Arc looks over the improvements, just to make sure there isn’t anything I could potential add to the run.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Arc
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For the warp glitch movie, I only edited a few parts, in contrast to being the primary author of the two longer movies. So all I can say is that it's possible that some other parts are not optimal, but it would require examining the whole movie to find out for sure.
EZGames69
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Alright, then I shall submit this soon.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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Link to video "A new speed exploit brought to you by Z2Rando creator Digshake and Arch Melvin Eunos... it's GEM EDGING! (tentative name) For years players have been dutifully bringing the six crystals back to each palace -- No longer with this simple trick! Just throw a crystal at a palace statue and disappear before the socket gets filled. Disregard Carrock, you don't need that robed douche's statue anymore! Try new Zelda II exploits today on your NES!"
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
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Hello. I've been paying attention to this a little bit. I intend on exploring routing ideas soon.
Arc
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The explanation in English is that Link can place a crystal in a statue, restart (Up+A) before the crystal finishes rising into the statue's forehead, then go back to the same palace and place another crystal in the statue, and repeat as many times as desired (up to 6 crystals). And, evidently, the Great Palace's barrier is programmed to check that Link holds 0 crystals, rather than checking that all 6 palaces have crystals. So Link theoretically just needs to get the minimum items needed for completion. It's somewhat similar to [956] NES Wizards & Warriors by Cardboard in 09:35.42, which is less entertaining than [929] NES Wizards & Warriors "all levels" by Cardboard in 12:14.93, in my opinion, but it is faster. I'll play it again, starting with the warps branch. But because of the item locations, it doesn't change a lot. The long child-rescue quest for Reflect is no longer needed. And there's no need to go to palace 6, which is unfortunate since Volvagia was the most entertaining boss. Link still needs the Hammer, Water of Life, Fairy, Jump, Power Glove (P2), Raft (P3), Boots (P4), and Flute (P5). And enough magic for the fairy tricks at the end. The time it takes to walk from the starting point (Zelda) to the P1 statue (with no boss) is about 1:58 (baseline). P2 from glove to crystal took 2:00 but there were 2 level-ups, so it's probably worth doing. P3 from raft to crystal took only 1:28 despite a level-up. P4 crystal will be skipped for sure because of Reflect. P5 from flute to crystal took only 1:43 and there's no restart afterward anyway. P6 wastes about 2:53 total, and so about a minute is saved here. Level 4 Attack will not be necessary anymore since there is no Volvagia fight. It looks like this movie will be mostly the same except: (1) the child rescue and Carock (4:48 combined) will be replaced with a boring walk through P1 (1:58). (2) P6 (2:53) will be replaced with a boring walk through P1 (1:58). And so the overall time of 38:38 gets cut down to around 34:54. Under 35 minutes is a good goal if no issues pop up. I'll have to check the leveling again in more detail, but it should end at Attack 3-Magic 5.
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Well what do you know. I measured the other movie. On the gem pedestal, if you up&a after losing control of link but before the gem is actually in the statue, it removes the gem from your inventory, but the statue is still active. For some reason, nobody has thought to check if you could place another gem after this situation has arisen. If, however, the palace item is collected and the gem is fake-placed, the palace still turns to stone and you can't return. Great Palace only requires that you have 0 gems left to place, and so you can skip bosses. The obvious use of this is to place the gem in Palace 1 multiple times to save time elsewhere by skipping bosses, notably the boss of Palace 4, which requires a lot of preparation. However, if a required item is skipped, a gem can be placed multiple times in any palace-- except Palace 2, which requires the palace item to reach the boss. Thus, technically any gem is available to exploit, if it saves time. For completeness' sake, all gems will be considered for exploit (besides Palace 6). You could skip an earlier boss and double P6's gem, but it takes nearly as long to walk to P6 as to finish P1, let alone the gem altar, so I won't measure. Frame counts are considered approximate; small changes to exact overworld path, key collection, spell queueing and level-up dialogue boxes will change these slightly. Reference movie for timing: [3254] NES Zelda II: The Adventure of Link "warpless" by Arc, FatRatKnight, Inzult & Rising_Tempest in 45:26.04 Below is theoretical time lost for doubling up on gems, ignoring boss fights. Counting from the start palace, since doubled gems should always be from (or include) an up&a and thus always add that time. All counts in frames. Time spent doubling Gem: P1; 7,236 P2; N/A (Glove Required) P3; 10,475 P4; 11,313 P5; 11,033 P6; N/A Below is theoretical time saved for skipping bosses/prep. Obviously, skipping a gem means you can't also double it. For P4, the time collecting the kid and Reflect spell must also be considered and has been added. P6 can be skipped, however, Old and New Kasuto still must be visited and as such the overworld route is basically unchanged. Time saved skipping Gem: P1; 7,692 (No need to visit) P2; 7,215 P3; 5,307 P4; 10,158 [kid quest] / 6,545 [gem skip] P5; 6,502 P6; 9,995 (No need to visit) So, with P1 being so quick to double, it's the only real option. I was thinking P3 might be more competative, but it is too slow. For P2, estimates put it very close whether skipping the boss is worthwhile, and thus would have to be tested more exactly. P3 and P5 bosses/gems should not be skipped, as they are close enough to the required items to be worth the visit. Since P6 can be ignored, and P4 takes so much prep, they should be skipped. The route becomes: finish P1 3 (or 4) times, finish P3 and P5 (and maybe P2) while getting the items. This does affect the leveling, particularly magic. Since there are no longer 4 doors in a row to pass in P4, it doesn't need to be rushed as quickly. Magic-5 is still required eventually, possibly for Palace 5, and definitely for Thunderbird. For P5, with 7 bars of magic even at magic 3, timely blue jars and/or death abuse should be enough to get through. This aspect would take some closer examination. As for the other movie, it should be measured separately, since some routing is different. I suspect it would math out more or less the same overall, though. Whether or not this exploit is good to use in both or either run is a separate question, and I welcome opinions starting... now. eta: i think skipping the P5 boss saves even less time than listed, since it would add an extra up&a and trip back to East Hyrule at ~1,600 frames.
Arc
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Inzult wrote:
Since there are no longer 4 doors in a row to pass in P4, it doesn't need to be rushed as quickly. Magic-5 is still required eventually, possibly for Palace 5, and definitely for Thunderbird.
I haven't look at the warpless route too deeply yet, but the necessary factor for Thunderbird is 8 magic containers rather than Magic-5. However it is true that in both movies, the reason to rush Magic-5 was to lower the Fairy cost in P4. But Magic-5 is also needed for P5... UNLESS warpless has a key that is not very far out of the way. Just an idea here, but I'm not sure there's even a need to go beyond Magic-1 in warpless if there's an easy key somewhere before P5 (those 4 level-ups take 12 seconds). But we'll deal with warpless later. Whoever judges the new any%/warps will have to deal with the publication branch possibilities. Because one could argue that it's a separate branch like Wizards & Warriors, or it directly obsoletes the any%/warps, or it obsoletes both long movies if this glitch renders warpless as an arbitrary goal. Examining the any%/warps leveling route, the main issue again is that Magic-5 no longer needs to be rushed. In fact it should be delayed as long as possible, because after getting Magic-5 we don't need anything. But, again, Magic-5 is needed for Fairy in P5. I think I'll have to do Life-2 Cancel and Attack-4 Cancel. But there will still be about 4 seconds saved from fewer level-up menus. The any%/warps should be pretty easy to do. I've got it mentally planned out now.
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I will say that I only took a cursory glance at the leveling. I was more interested in the macro savings for the initial investigation. But to focus in on the 38 minute run, this key is available near the start of P5. With the Jump spell, you can damage boost up there, whatever is faster. That saves 1 cast of the 3 needed to get to the flute. Edit: It saves 2 casts, the cast to skip this room and the cast to skip the next door. After that, we need 2 casts on the way to the flute, then 3 on the way to gooma, with another red jar after the 2nd. So in theory a blue jar and a magic level in some order would solve problems. Or indeed, an extra death. There is also the key on the ledge behind the red ironknuckle, on the route to the flute. It's slightly out of the way, but saves 2 casts of fairy. Warps gets Jump, so it's available. Warpless does not, so it's (perhaps) unavailable. So in warps, we can get it to 1 after the refill on the way to the flute, then 1 on the way out, then a refill, then 1 on the way to gooma.
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Wow another big discovery, great find and good luck on the new TAS.