What is the warp glitch you are referring to?
Also I know it doesn't work with the site's guidelines but I think the run should end as soon as Excalibur II is picked up because that is when the challenge ends then you have all the time in the world and what I'm most interested in is the time you clock in when you pick up the sword.
I still think the only feasible way to make this run (from the standpoint of the person running it) is to get the foundation for a 100% file. Grab anything that you can't get later on and just rush to the end. Grab Excalibur 2 and beat the final boss. The movie can be stopped at any time so it would be a good starter kit for somebody to actually pick up where the TAS left off and finish that challenge. Maybe a new type of TAS could be spawned from this, a Starter TAS.
I would watch a run that actually shoots for 100% but I doubt seriously that anyone would try to be frame precis on getting every card and with a unique variation on every card too. Getting a 100% file as graded by just the game is hard and long enough... getting a file as graded by that guide... well... nobody will do it. Even that WIP that was posted already blew the chances for a perfect as soon as the thing started. Totally ignored the treasures in the Airship and town.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
I still think the only feasible way to make this run (from the standpoint of the person running it) is to get the foundation for a 100% file. Grab anything that you can't get later on and just rush to the end. Grab Excalibur 2 and beat the final boss.
That's probably the best way to do it and I also like the "starter tas" idea somehow.
I assume its when you use the gold chocobo to skip a few places. You get the ship and then instantly get a gold chocobo. Then you go to Ipsen castle... I think. Been a long time.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
I thought it was getting a Gold Chocobo before you get an airship and flying to the continent that you aren't supposed to reach until after you get the airship.
So not really a warp glitch, just a sequence break.
I thought it was getting a Gold Chocobo before you get an airship and flying to the continent that you aren't supposed to reach until after you get the airship.
So not really a warp glitch, just a sequence break.
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
The one thing that's always sort of bothered me about the Perfect Game run is the "Obtain perfect amounts of all missable items" guideline.
In a TAS, you would certainly have a lot of extra time to buy more than Atomos' suggested "perfect" amounts of these items... and while 99 of each is probably out of the question barring some really fast Gil glitch, there's certainly a maximum amount of each you could buy.
To make my point, if you ended up getting EII with like 10:00 on the clock, that's two whole hours you could have spent getting money and buying "more perfect" amounts of the missable but purchasable items.
Thoughts?
Here's my thought: "This TAS achieves a perfect game with X hours to spare" sounds more impressive than 'this TAS achieves a perfect game as well as getting X more of Y, Z and Q to spend the rest of the hours'
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
Ah, but couldn't you say the same thing about fastest completion time?
Also, how long does the Cotton Robe trick take exactly? Don't you have to run back and forth between towns? I can see it not being too fun to watch, so I see your point.
Here's my thought: "This TAS achieves a perfect game with X hours to spare" sounds more impressive than 'this TAS achieves a perfect game as well as getting X more of Y, Z and Q to spend the rest of the hours'
Perfect Game with X hours to spare is alot more fun to watch I think, the other ones include way too much grinding which is really annoying to watch I think.
Here's my thought: "This TAS achieves a perfect game with X hours to spare" sounds more impressive than 'this TAS achieves a perfect game as well as getting X more of Y, Z and Q to spend the rest of the hours'
Perfect Game with X hours to spare is alot more fun to watch I think, the other ones include way too much grinding which is really annoying to watch I think.
That objective makes no sense though. Getting Excalibur II is the only thing about the perfect game that is being timed. Once obtained the time limit is lifted and you are expected to spend well over another 100+ hours doing the rest of the crap needed for a "perfect" file. Even a TAS would not be able to lower this to a sub 50 hour run and frankly I would be highly skeptical if it could even lower it to sub 100 hours.
More fitting, as I said from the start, is something along the lines of "Creates a save which can be used to achieve a perfect file" and all that objective would need is for the TAS to at the final save point actually save. As for the TAS itself all it would need to do is get all miss-able and finite quantity items needed for a perfect inventory. The beauty of this is it would create a save file for someone to use to create a perfect file later... which nobody will ever do because it would take years to make and weeks to watch and be boring as hell.
The idea of a perfect TAS is a nice one though as this is by far the easiest FF ever created and speed versus entertainment trade-offs are frankly needed. I've done this challenge in real life and it's something most people would like to be able to do themselves but can't given the sheer time and effort needed so an ultimate save to set up a perfect file should, I think, be the goal of this run.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
Wren, what are your thoughts on the "Obtain perfect amounts of all missable items" discussion? Just curious.
To summarize what I said before (correct any of this if it's wrong):
Any of those 31 items can be purchased in shops before the 4th disc, but limited time in an EII run does not permit 99 of each, so Atomos just truncated the "perfect" amount so that it fit some guideline that he made up (which is fine).
My argument is that in a TAS you can actually allocate all the extra time you have to buying as many of these items as you can, and that this is "more perfect" than just buying like 4 of each, or whatever.
Again, I've never really started this challenge in earnest (the idea of maxing the jump rope mini-game scares me) so I may be not quite correct up there in my description ^
I would tend to go by what the game defines, rather than some arbitrary goal. And this 'perfect amounts of all missable items' goal is as arbitrary as it gets. In no other TAS, not even 100% playthroughs, does it ever define you to get maximum of every collectable item there is, so why should an FF9 TAS be any different.
Ditch the arbitrary goal, go by what the game defines, and aim for the fastest time possible. It would make the TAS, at least from my perspective, much more entertaining.
Wren, what are your thoughts on the "Obtain perfect amounts of all missable items" discussion? Just curious.
To summarize what I said before (correct any of this if it's wrong):
Any of those 31 items can be purchased in shops before the 4th disc, but limited time in an EII run does not permit 99 of each, so Atomos just truncated the "perfect" amount so that it fit some guideline that he made up (which is fine).
My argument is that in a TAS you can actually allocate all the extra time you have to buying as many of these items as you can, and that this is "more perfect" than just buying like 4 of each, or whatever.
Again, I've never really started this challenge in earnest (the idea of maxing the jump rope mini-game scares me) so I may be not quite correct up there in my description ^
My thoughts on the obtain perfect amounts of miss-able items is this; if an item has a maximum limit of 5 but only 3 are miss-able then the TAS should gather 3 of them and ignore the other 2. The reason is that anyone could then simply load the save and with a short trip go and grab the other 2 items. Nothing has been lost that can't be gotten later. Sadly it means the TAS simply wont do a lot of stuff but does anyone here honestly think anyone is going to go through the effort of actually making a perfect file TAS?
The only other alternative is to simply go for pure speed and then you are left with a run that basically just has huge chunks of text followed by really short boss fights. It's something most RPG runs suffer greatly from, especially modern ones like FF9. It's bad enough that as far as I know cut-scenes won't be skip-able so you might as well just go whole hog and add some pointless objectives. You still have to consider the viewer though which is why I see little point in getting 2 more of an item that only 3 of which can't be gotten later.
Take the Romancing SaGa 2 run that was recently published. It is basically an hour of sitting in one spot running followed by a game breaking glitch. It's interesting from a technical standpoint but honestly I would imagine most people would much rather have seen the game beaten in a more conventional way. In that sense when most people play FFIX they attempt to do as much as possible and miss Excalibur 2 or do as little as possible but get Excalibur 2. This run can easily do both and thus I think it's the best choice but you need to consider that this run is already going to be as long as the Lord of the Rings movies back to back to back.
Anyway... my 2 cents. Hope this reaches a consensus and somebody starts soon.
EDIT: Sorry I got sidetracked and forgot. I wanted to add that if an item can be equipped by 4 people then 5 should be obtained as that allows you to have each person using one and yet that item is still in the inventory at the same time. However, if an item can be gotten later then it should be ignored completely for the purposes of this TAS. Unless, of course, some of that item can be missed or is used in obtaining a miss-able item (synthesizing items for instance).
I personally see zero difference between having 99 of an item of just enough to fulfill my above scenario.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
Joined: 8/6/2006
Posts: 784
Location: Connecticut, USA
Toothache wrote:
I would tend to go by what the game defines, rather than some arbitrary goal. And this 'perfect amounts of all missable items' goal is as arbitrary as it gets. In no other TAS, not even 100% playthroughs, does it ever define you to get maximum of every collectable item there is, so why should an FF9 TAS be any different.
Ditch the arbitrary goal, go by what the game defines, and aim for the fastest time possible. It would make the TAS, at least from my perspective, much more entertaining.
The problem here is that the game does nothing to define what a Perfect Game is. The only person to do that so far (to my knowledge) is Atomos, and his definitions, while not exactly arbitrary, are tailored to fit a gameplay style that is "perfect" excepting cases like the missable purchasable items, which, since you can't get 99 of each, and since purchasing a maximum amount of each is nearly impossible to define or do in a real-time playthrough, is just defined as "perfect" @ enough to equip to every party member that can equip + one extra for the inventory. Which is somewhat arbitrary, but relieves a lot of work on the player at the expense of less items while still falling under Atomos' perfect guidelines.
Which is what bothers me about the run.
Toothache wrote:
does it ever define you to get maximum of every collectable item there is
Exactly, I agree, but SINCE the run would be using Atomos' definitions, you would have to get 99 of SOME items. In section H04 of his guide, he mentions this about recovery items and gems. And because of this, getting 99 of some items and just 4 of others (even though you could get more) is bothersome. Sorry if I'm beating this to death.
If someone does make this "perfect game template" TAS, would it be reasonable to not fly through all the text at breakneck speed?
So that we at least have enough time to pause the vid to read the text box?
I know it technically goes against the general rules for TAS, but it can make this and any other RPG TAS vids a little more enjoyable.
*rolls eyes*
I knew it would only be a matter of time before somebody asked that. Personally I find the idea simply idiotic, always have and always will. If you want to enjoy the story you have three options. Option 1, go play FF9. This is the best option as you can actually talk to all the NPC's and such. Option 2, watch a Let's Play. This is in case you don't have the time or the game or whatever. It's basically the whole point of Let's Play's anyway. Option 3, just play the video back slowly during text. The logical option!
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
*rolls eyes*
I knew it would only be a matter of time before somebody asked that. Personally I find the idea simply idiotic, always have and always will. If you want to enjoy the story you have three options. Option 1, go play FF9. This is the best option as you can actually talk to all the NPC's and such. Option 2, watch a Let's Play. This is in case you don't have the time or the game or whatever. It's basically the whole point of Let's Play's anyway. Option 3, just play the video back slowly during text. The logical option!
I perfectly agree with you on that, obviously there's no need at all to sit there and wait long enough to let others read what the characters, even in TAS speed (maybe a second to let them be able to pause) to read... Seriously, If I was watching the video, I'm not going to pause a 3-4 hour long video every second someone talks... So in the end, that really... Just don't even make sense.. If you want to see what they say, play the game yourself.
Also, no one is forcing you to watch anything... If someone wants to watch a TAS 12 hours long, they will do so. Even if in parts, they will do so... I surely can watch over 170 or more Naruto episodes in a month or 2, each being 23 minutes long... So I don't think that 720 Minutes is alot at all (we go double that in a day) compared to those 3910 minutes I've spent on Naruto, it's all about patience, and if you don't have it, don't watch it.
Also noted... A perfect game is defined as being perfect, logically, that means get the most of everything, while getting Excalibur II, in as little time as possible. This site usually demands full game plays, from power on to end of credits, but obviously, I'm pretty sure that this run in general, is really just focusing on getting Excalibur II, while doing the perfect game run. If so, then the run should end at the moment we get Excalibur II, and chances are, they'll accept the run (They do give special permissions)... That's how I'd put it. 99 of everything that you can buy, should be bought, otherwise it's not perfect, because you can improve it (by getting more)... Truly it is, for the most part ones opinion, but I think with frame advance, it might take maybe... 5 seconds? To buy 99 of buyable items... Just about routes really.
I really just think the point in the matter is people is saying it's too difficult, I truly don't think anything (logically speaking :P) is impossible... Even if it would take me a few days, I'd sure the heck watch this :)
Edit: If you guys are having desyncs, you could try on a BIN version of the game... I've had no desyncs ~at all~ doing my MediEvil TAS... So, maybe PCSX just hates ISO's? >_>
I like some things about this compared to chrono cross. No drop manipulating or accuracy manipulating. Theres nothing worse than a perfect battle without the right drops. It's easier on a per attack basis. In any case while I'm stuck manipulating the first battle in chrono I'll copy that test run. Do you still have your pxm Zanoab?
Edit1: Way less lag than chrono cross in battles. More enjoyable doing the first fight so far. Fully optimized test run tonight!!
I'm back working on my WIP. Holidays are taking up my time. I'm testing steal manipulation. I can't find any information on how this works. Trial and error at this point.
Will keep updates going.
Update1: Looks like steals are set in stone when the battle starts. I'm testing waiting frames on battle entry.
Update3: I've tested entering battle on every single frame for 120 frames now. I've had 8 different battles in those frames.
The frames listed are when to press x to confirm the dialog that starts the battle.
Battles are as follows: (Fullest ATB on battle start)
10523 -10567 (Marcus/Zidane)
10569 -10579 (Cinna/Blank)
10581 -10583 (Marcus/Blank)
10585 (Blank/Cinna)
10587 -10601 (Zidane/Marcus)
10603 -10631 (Cinna/Zidane)
10633 -10639 (Cinna/Blank/Marcus)
10641 - (Marcus/Zidane/Cinna)
I can't find any pattern to this.
Update4: How do I affect the rng once in a battle? I've tried stealing every frame for 50 frames with the exact same outcome. It's like the rng never changes once a battle is commenced.
