Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
Awesome! I didn't expect it to be published in just over a week with all the emulation problems. Thanks Bisqwit :)
Okay, here are a few of my thoughts towards what a second version should accomplish.
1) Presentation -- Because the project was so long consistent quality was difficult. When I started I wasn't as experienced as I have since become. Because of this I feel the first two cycles in comparison to the third makes the movie feel uneven. No final version should have this and it is something I would very much like to redo and was in fact my initial motivation to look at a V2.
2) Improvement -- There areas in the run that we know can be improved by a couple of seconds. There are also areas that I suspect can be improved if new decisions are made.
3) Optimisation -- I used RAM watch rather sparingly. In this I (and I hope you guys will help :D) will try and find all useful addresses. The first two cycles could be further optimised, the third cycle (especially the later half) is pretty tight. Keep in mind that the game runs at 20fps, which means that even very different strategies can turn out to be equally fast. This means that an optimisation has to be worth 3 frames and with the linearity of backwalking etc. improvement in this way will be difficult.
4) Route -- No huge sequence breaks for this game have been discovered for a long time. The only way I can imagine any route change is with the discovery of some bottle adventure style glitch. Unlikely.
Having said that, we should deduce wether or not the ranch truly is faster than the beaver race. If the beaver race is faster then that will mean route change after goron race. However, if the ranch is still faster then that too poses something rather interesting if we can get there with no ISoT.
The aliens converge on the barn at 345 (worth checking if manipulable, although I doubt it) and disappear at 515. Therefore the run can't move on until 515 regardless of whether I arrive at 330 or 315 etc. Now what I'm thinking is, would this mean that for the ISoTless 3rd cycle to be improved at all someone would have to improve the run by one in-game hour (~45 in-game seconds) before 5pm on the first day and play SoDT to get to the ranch before me in real time? Of course, this depends on how much slower the beaver race is and a lot of lag monitoring. I'm probably missing something, but having half of the run unimproveable is a nice thought. I'm just rambling now...
5) Emulation -- From what I've heard Jabo 1.6 renders this the best and is what will be used in the next version. Unfortunately, I get only audio and no video with it. This is something I hope to rectify in the near future.
It would be nice to not get molested by desync again. I don't intend to start recording until next year so hopefully Okaygo has bulletproofed Mupen by then. If not then I'll probably just go ahead anyway.
I'll post up my list of improvements when I get the chance.
It's good to hear that you're already planning a second version. :)
One thing which is faster (and I tested this myself) is to use side hops instead of backwalking in the initial area. It may be worthwhile to try combinations of side hops and backwalking, though (like backwalk into the tree, then side hop in this area), but when I tried it, I just side hopped for the whole area, and it ended up being about two seconds faster than just backwalking/backflipping.
Also remember to always spin before hopping on water with Deku Link, it gives a significant speed boost to your hops, it also gives a lot of extra distance.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Link's speed:
00CD2D0A
Type: Byte
As I suspected, Link's sidehopping speed is highest when the sidehop starts (206), then in the middle of the hop it decreases to below backwalking speed, then increases as he starts falling (like if he sidehopped off an edge.) Therefore: in ANY up hill or downhill slope, of any inclination, sidehop instead of backwalk. Also, if the terrain changes from uphill to downhill or vice versa (like the bridge at pirate's fortress) use sidehopping all the way.
Notice the max backwalking speed is 191; I once tricked it into 192, so if you could find the trigger to fool it like that, it might help in a sub pixel way over long distances.
YautjaElder wrote:
Also remember to always spin before hopping on water with Deku Link, it gives a significant speed boost to your hops, it also gives a lot of extra distance.
I've also gotten this to work with sidehopping off of a lilypad (as I mentioned somewhere to you before.) With that speed address, I bet you can find which is the better one to do in each scenario.
Some more notes about movement optimizations:
-rolling shouldn't be used as frequently as you did in the movie. it's speed is 191, same as backwalking, but you have a pause in between each one. It might be handy for a short change of direction (like going around a corner) or to reach a doorway that is close by. If you do roll, and it doesn't end with you going into a doorway or loading point or something, follow it up with a sidehop (for another short distance) or a backwalk.
-See if wall clippings work (ala Mario 4.) Nothing like a good pixel boost.
-Sometimes you can angle yourself into a wall, and you'll be backwalking at the same max speed, then once you reach the edge of the corner, you go around it and backwalk in the angle you were facing. (watch guano's old OoT movie in Jabu Jabu, he does this sometimes in the hallways. I do it in my deku tree WIP.)
-The Deku spin: I'd have to have the x/y pixel addresses, in addition to watching speed to see if spinning or deku backwalk is faster. But like rolling, use spinning if it cancels into something, like off an edge, into a doorway, etc.
-When rolling off ledges, try to get Link's cartwheel-flip- animation, that is fastest. With Zora, there were lots of jumps out of and into water that were not optimal. Try to get either the dive or possibly a sidehop.
A sidehop off a ledge, and onto a nearby ledge (if you can make it) is faster for Link then when you roll off and he does that mega jump. (see my Deku Tree WIP.
-That's all for now, I'll try noodling around when I can to find more.
The one thing I thought really didn't make much sence getting was the glided sword, I know it a lot more powerful but it sure takes an age to obtain. I think its probally faster for a real time player but certainly not for a TASer.
On another note I take blame for the strategy of sidehopping up the stairs before talking the mask guy. Also in the Lost Woods section the magic jar wasn't obtained, I know the author said he couldn't manipulate, but magic jars do drop from the bushes. This could have saved a lot of time since there is long sections where Goron link does not have the spike roll.
The one thing I thought really didn't make much sence getting was the glided sword, I know it a lot more powerful but it sure takes an age to obtain. I think its probally faster for a real time player but certainly not for a TASer.
I think the idea is to clear the bottle so that a trip to pinnacle rock can be saved.
The one thing I thought really didn't make much sence getting was the glided sword, I know it a lot more powerful but it sure takes an age to obtain. I think its probally faster for a real time player but certainly not for a TASer.
I think the idea is to clear the bottle so that a trip to pinnacle rock can be saved.
If that was the ONLY reason, then selling it in clock town would be faster. But it is also useful for beating bosses quicker (imagine twinmold, and all 3 majora phases taking twice as long)
I don't know much about speedrunning this game, but I also thought it seemed unnecessary to get the sword. I guess it was for the bottle, but isn't there a faster bottle somewhere?
comicalflop, where can I get that memory watch program you used to find the speed values?
Another thing which may be useful which I noticed is that while rolling as a Goron (while you have magic), if you let him get close to the spike stage, then pull back on the analogue for a few frames, then push forward again, he resets the roll without stopping, so he goes back to having a normal roll without rully stopping or without every entering the spike stage.
You basically need the gilded sword because you need the third bottle for pinnacle rock. Also, (at least in a speedrun), twinmold would almost require green potions without it. It might be skippable in a TAS though.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
nfq wrote:
I don't know much about speedrunning this game, but I also thought it seemed unnecessary to get the sword. I guess it was for the bottle, but isn't there a faster bottle somewhere?
comicalflop, where can I get that memory watch program you used to find the speed values?
Another thing which may be useful which I noticed is that while rolling as a Goron (while you have magic), if you let him get close to the spike stage, then pull back on the analogue for a few frames, then push forward again, he resets the roll without stopping, so he goes back to having a normal roll without rully stopping or without every entering the spike stage.
That actually might be helpful, but the goron spikes stage gives the real speed boost in rolling.
When goron bomb jumping, remember to always clip the very top of the fence so that you don't have to wait through that annoying getting up animation.
Also, when getting the silver rupee chest in ECT, remember to sidehop up the stairs so you don't need to change alignment.
I think you should sidehop into the water as a Deku, although I'm not sure if that's any better than spinning. Perhaps backwalking off the edge...
Superslides need to be cleaner. bombs should be shield dropped with only just enough time to roll into them and NEVER placed with the A button.
Jabo's 1.6 is a must, as it produces the best graphics emulation. It even outdoes Nintendo's own emulator for the GCN version.
Would holding the Goron roll longer when getting up towards Snowhead speed things up? It always seemed like it would be faster to get right up to the blowing Goron and then revert to human for the sword glitch.
Anyway, that's all for now. I'll point out anything else if I think of it.
EDIT: Oh, and BTW, Mukki, try re-downloading Mupen64. I had the same problem as you with Jabo's 1.6, but after I re-downloaded it, it worked fine.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
YautjaElder wrote:
Also remember to always spin before hopping on water with Deku Link, it gives a significant speed boost to your hops, it also gives a lot of extra distance.
I tested and you get a mini boost if just as you are about to leave the lily pad you spin, and the spinning animation happens JUST as you're about to leave the lilypad. In mid air, Deku Link is about to spin but stops and realigns himself forwards, and he gets extra height, distance, and speed when doing this.
Are there maybe some tall obstacles you can get over with Zora and a stored bomb jump (the sun block in stone tower temple comes to mind)?
Nah, they're too tall. In general, you can only ground jump up to something about as tall as a Goron Pound. The Sun Block in the Ikana Castle grounds can be ground jumped up to, as well as the red switch in GBT. You can also use a Goron bomb jump to get up on those, but it's no faster and far more difficult.
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
I disagree quite strongly with the use of Jabo 1.6, mainly because of its lack of synchability with other plugins (making a run in Jabo 1.6 on Majora's Mask will likely mean people using other plugins is impossible). I do respect the fact that it has superior graphics quality, but care must be taken on this matter.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
I've edited the Majora's Mask TAS speedrun page so that it's easier for us to group together all the contributions and improvements.
http://mwlin.freehostia.com/wiki/index.php?title=MM/Any%25
Hopefully many of you will help me out with filling the page and in doing so will help me create the best MM TAS possible.
At some point, I, or someone else who knows the route well (Mukki, maybe), will need to rewrite that route to reflect the more recent discoveries, and maybe get rid of the count errors that show up in there every so often. The GBT route is all wrong, and some other things must be changed,
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
It is in fact general velocity, showing the speed of whichever direction Link is moving the most in (think of it like a speedometer). Some other values probably keep track of the angle.
thanks. it's impossible to use though. how am i supposed to know what number to search for? and the ram watch? it just shows a couple of numbers which never change.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
you to have MHS be watching mupen.... you go to file, and have it watch process, and select mupen when it's running the and ROM is loaded. In the main window there'll be a blank space, with description, address, current value, type... press the blank white page button, and you can input the address for Link's speed (the address itself, what type, and you can give it a description.) then it will be watching that address.
Memory watch in MHS is a side tool that lets you watch a huge range of addresses of a game at once. it's not what I use for watching, I use the main window that has the expression calculator and found addresses on the left side.
In order to find addresses, start with a data type search, then use sub-search to filter out addresses.
that's awesome. how long did it take you to find the value? i'm trying to find something in phantasy star but i only found some weird adresses so far when i searched for 512. i don't even know if i know what i'm doing.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Well, I'm told that MHS works wonders for mupen, but that for other systems, the in-built memory watchers in the emulator are better (since MHS has a harder time knowing which addresses are for the ROM itself and not the emulator.)
I found the speed address for Majora's Mask in about 2 minutes, which is extremely lucky. I still have not found a speed address for OoT, I may or may not have a sub-pixel range speed for Super Mario 64, and I found all my addresses for Mischief Makers (x/y speed, X sub pixel range speed, x/y pixel position, x/y sub pixel position, y sub pixel position of Marina on the screen, etc. etc. I also found an address that sort of shows Migen Jr.'s HP changing) within a day or two. It all varies, and it takes a little practice to know how to filter for the one you're looking for. The best part is that once you're absolutely sure you have the right address, watching it is real easy and it vastly improves the precision.
in a RPG, is it possible to predict where an enemy encounter will be, what enemy it will be, and how much damage i and the enemy will do in each frame? that would be very useful because i have to level up so much. i've found things like enemy HP, but this battle manipulation seems much harder.
this is kind of offtopic though, so maybe i should have PMed.
