Topic by mukka

Posted: 1/5/2009 10:47 AM

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paul_t

Emulator Coder, Former player

Joined: 8/12/2007
Posts: 102

Redone up to High Max Movie File

Posted: 1/5/2009 11:04 AM

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Atma

Former player

Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803

Nice work paul_t, it was only yesterday that I checked to see if there had been any posts in this thread :P The only points I spotted where improvement may be possible were in the intro stage. 1) When you go down the ladder, you airdash. Fair enough, it gets you some distance, but it resets your falling speed again, so you'd possibly be able to make more distance simply by falling and then dash jumping instead, as in previous games air/ground dashing has somewhere between a 6-10 frame animation period before you actually move, while a ground dash jump has none. 2) When you got hit soon after that, you got hit at a rather high point, for the short knock back animation, and then had to fall to the ground to re-dash jump. I'm almost certain that it would've been better to do a small jump there, and get hit at the lowest possible point that you'd have been able to jump again (almost) immediately from. Other than these 2 points, I don't really have much else to comment on, it looked pretty smooth. Keep it up :)

Posted: 1/5/2009 7:16 PM

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Satoryu

Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272

Atma's right about the airdash. Falcon Armor's air dash is slow. never use it. are you not getting Guard Shell? if not, why? on X's trip through Mijinion, you could maniuplate Illumina's blasts to hit you in the air after you've already slashed the barrier. you'd be able to slash again on the way down. Nightmare Zero can be way better. he can be manipulated to using his Giga Attack much quicker than that. at the very least, he should never warp. Turtloid looked good. only thing i saw was that you entered the first boss door in the air, which meant there was a delay before you could move forward. you should try to avoid jumping through boss doors when there's solid ground directly below you. also, Guard Shell would speed up the stage in addition to the fight, would it not? on Zero's trip through Mijinion, the barriers can be damaged quicker by using Ensuizan in the air and mashing the special attack button. also, why did you pause to select Ensuizan?

Posted: 1/5/2009 9:54 PM

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Cremator

Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 63

I thought it was fairly obvious that visiting Sheldon for Guard Shell wastes more time than it helps to save. paul_t even made videos to demonstrate the difference, in case you've forgotten: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-UtZ8ISUnVQ&feature=channel_page (no G. Shell) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LEq3hAZpB_w&feature=channel (with G. Shell) I think GS might rack up up to twenty seconds of savings or so, tops. It takes at least double the amount to get it.

Posted: 1/6/2009 2:53 AM

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paul_t

Emulator Coder, Former player

Joined: 8/12/2007
Posts: 102

Thanks, I'll keep all these timesavers in mind. For the moment I'm going to continue for testing purposes. I don't think the Guard Shell would be able to save enough time. Shield Sheldon's level and loading screens are something around 1:30 long. In addition to that, switching to it takes up about a second each time. Up to High Max the second time Movie file There's another unnecessary pause, which I thought was needed to use Ensuizan. The part with the totem poles seems like it could be faster too.

Posted: 1/6/2009 4:47 AM

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Satoryu

Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272

Cremator wrote:

paul_t even made videos to demonstrate the difference, in case you've forgotten: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-UtZ8ISUnVQ&feature=channel_page (no G. Shell) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LEq3hAZpB_w&feature=channel (with G. Shell)

i'm sorry, but something looks wrong with these results. on console, with GS is clearly faster than without. why it would differ emulated baffles me. especially since you're SDCing at a weird pace in the withGS video. Turtloid shouldn't be the only thing to test either. there are at least 9 other bosses that GS could be used on. it should be tested on all of them. maybe Turtloid's the exception, not the rule. and there's also the fact that GS kills enemies quicker too, thanks to less lag. i'm aware that the time it takes to go through Sheldon's stage could very well make GS' use for the rest of the game slower. i just want to make sure that everything's tested first. ::edit:: just watched part two. can High Max be manipulated to not use his ring shield move? Gate 1 had no problems. and i realize now Guard Shell would slow down the Mother Nightmare fight. Gate 2 needs to be redone. there are two shortcuts in the totem pole rooms. go see my run for reference. in short, you can just jump up to the orange platforms that go up and down.

Posted: 1/6/2009 5:19 AM

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FractalFusion

Editor, Expert player (2071)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282

Satoryu wrote:

on console, with GS is clearly faster than without. why it would differ emulated baffles me.

Maybe because SDC without GS, even close to the rate it shows, is humanly impossible? It shouldn't baffle you. It's a lot easier to press one button that does a lot of damage than to press dash in SDC every 4 frames.

Posted: 1/6/2009 11:00 AM

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Cremator

Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 63

You know, I've had faster non-assisted High Max battles. :/ What you need to do is manipulate High Max to do only three routines: The three small spheres (which are unavoidable in the sense he'll do them eventually), then the big ball punch move (use Ensuizan to take his shield off, then shoot him with your buster. Does double the damage in comparison to Ensuizan), repeat until he can do his desperation move (make sure he does that as soon as possible), then proceed to kill him like you did. Ensuizan does the most damage excl. buster. It looked like in the YouTube video that you don't strike High Max on the first possible moment when he shoots the 3 spheres. I'm yet to watch the rest, might edit this later. About Gate 1... is it really necessary to get hit by the dog to do the third jump in that spike shaft? I do know that taking damage in the last rising lava corridor was just pointless; you can kill it with extended air Ensuizan from above. In the Nightmare Mother fight you could've landed some extra hits. The normal jump-slash extends to the core, so you can hit it immediately and afterwards. Also when you managed to destroy the other core you made no attempt to hit the other one. Are you sure that's impossible? When ascending the narrow ladder shafts, it might be faster to keep changing sides, not stick to the same side.

Posted: 1/8/2009 10:30 AM

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paul_t

Emulator Coder, Former player

Joined: 8/12/2007
Posts: 102

Thanks for the suggestions. I decided to restart, saving around 30 seconds. The biggest improvement is the High Max fight. Up to High Max - Some loading time is cut out. Movie file

Posted: 1/8/2009 2:07 PM

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Cremator

Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 63

Are you sure not using Z-buster in the High Max fight is faster? The difference between the damage they do is huge. Other than that, looks very nice. Turloid's level went really smoothly this time around in comparison to the previous versions.

Posted: 1/8/2009 9:34 PM

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Satoryu

Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272

only thing i noticed is at 6:16, the purple guy hits you to the left. v2 handled that guy better, i believe. aside from that, everything looks great. a big step up from before.

Posted: 1/9/2009 8:27 AM

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FractalFusion

Editor, Expert player (2071)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282

Looks even better than the previous ones. Though I suppose it's too bad that Rainy Turtloid's stage had to have spotlights, but that's how it works out. Were there other routes worth testing, or is Mijinion, Turtloid, Mijinion clearly the fastest? YouTube commenting system is definitely not user-friendly. YouTube doesn't even have the decency to tell you why your post is invalid. I lost half an hour because of this. Also, you can't delete your own posts on other's videos. (paul_t, you may delete my test post if you wish). Hint: Never post links or '.org' on comments. P.S. paul_t, you can thank youtube for adding about 20 views to your video

Posted: 1/9/2009 6:17 PM

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Satoryu

Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272

almost positive Mijinion has the quickest route to Nightmare Zero/High Max. Yammark is probably the only contender because everywhere else either takes too long or requires some sort of new ability. but you have to slow down quite a bit in Yammark, whereas Mijinion you're only stopped by the minibosses. it could have been possible to go to Turtloid to get Zero, but only if Hyper Dash outdid the time it took to get there. if detouring for GS is slower, i'm led to believe the same would hold for Hyper Dash.

Posted: 1/9/2009 9:05 PM

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Cremator

Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 63

Hyper Dash might work if it didn't require any leveling, which takes way too much time, especially in a TAS. Yammark might work for Zero thanks to the invincibility glitch if it wasn't so much longer than Mijinion. Too bad.

Posted: 1/9/2009 11:33 PM

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paul_t

Emulator Coder, Former player

Joined: 8/12/2007
Posts: 102

Here's another Guard Shell test: Without GS With GS About the High Max fight, Z-buster was actually about 40 frames slower when I tested it. I was only able to use it once in the fight though, manipulating High Max to use that attack more often could maybe make it faster. You can disable the first set of lights in Turtloid like this: 09CB08 00 09CB68 00 09CBC8 00 09CC28 00 But the movie recorded without the cheats won't sync. There's probably another way to do it that works better. Here are some ram values that are useful: 970C6 Jumping 970C5 Jumping|Sub 911B2 X|Pos 911B6 Y|Pos 911B3 X|Block 911B7 Y|Block 911B1 X|Subpixel 911B5 Y|Subpixel 8EFA4 Boss|Health 8EFA1 Boss|Invulnerab 8EFAB Boss|Invulnerab 8EFA5 Boss|Health|2 !CCF60 Level|Timer (Two bytes) c456c Input 970FC Health 970FD Health|2 CCF2B Health|3 e434 Damage|Invul (FF: I've been tricked by that YouTube thing as well, I can delete your comment if you want, otherwise it doesn't matter)

Posted: 1/9/2009 11:40 PM

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Satoryu

Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272

paul_t wrote:

Here's another Guard Shell test: Without GS With GS

the results here aren't reliable at all, considering Wolfang does different things each time. he should be manipulated to stay still and shoot ice chunks.

Posted: 1/10/2009 7:35 AM

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FractalFusion

Editor, Expert player (2071)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282

Satoryu wrote:

the results here aren't reliable at all, considering Wolfang does different things each time. he should be manipulated to stay still and shoot ice chunks.

OK, whatever. It affects both results, and the slower one (without GS) stands to gain more from it than the faster one (with GS).

Posted: 1/18/2009 12:47 AM

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FractalFusion

Editor, Expert player (2071)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282

Here is a test run beating High Max: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64iupyYebM Don't let the route blow your mind. This is just a test run and I do not assert that this route is "correct", not by any means. I know it is faster to get Zero first, because of SDC. It turns out that taking the portal in Shield Sheldon's stage is quite close in time to Infinity Mijinion's stage. Infinity Mijinion's stage is faster, but not by much (I had to improve paul_t's run through Infinity Mijinion to see this). I'm pretty sure Commander Yammark's portal is faster than both (for both X and Zero), but X can't go up there unless he has Wolfang's weapon. Finally, High Max goes down faster using X's charged weapon rather than Zero's weapons. I chose Yammark because the stage is very short. This of course is very committal, as X must now do Gate Lab 2. I do not know the outcome (other than that it is possible to beat), but at this point, the run is over a minute faster than paul_t's run.

Posted: 1/18/2009 3:07 AM

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Cremator

Joined: 10/17/2007
Posts: 63

Clever. Have you tried collecting Mijinion's weapon to fight High Max? I think that was one of he's weaknesses, other one being Turtloid's weapon, but I could be wrong. I'm not so sure about Commander Yammark's portal... sure, the stage is short, but the secondary area is slow to navigate. Another thing that bugs me about this route is that you'll be trading off the invulnerability glitch, which will bite you back since it'll both slow you down a bit and create lots of lag when using Zero, specifically in Gate 1. With tools, I don't think Gate two would be unfeasible using X, but not being able to do the in-stage skips might cost you too much time in the end, unless you figure out something nice to get through anyway. You also need to have High Max doing his desperation move, which might prove difficult to fight against with charged Yammark's weapon. That is, unless your current way happens to be faster there, too.

Posted: 1/18/2009 3:35 AM

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paul_t

Emulator Coder, Former player

Joined: 8/12/2007
Posts: 102

I was really impressed by all those improvements you found in the intro and Mijinion stages and I'm interested to see how it turns out in the Gate levels. I think the invincibility glitch might not save that much time in Gate 1.

Posted: 1/19/2009 8:37 AM

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FractalFusion

Editor, Expert player (2071)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282

Yammar Option is quite useful for Gate 1. I don't need invincibility trick. Strangely, it is also useful against the boss, although the triple third slash does the most damage. Previously, I thought about getting Ray Arrow for High Max. This also allows cutting out a boss intro. However, I think the effect of Yammar Option on Gate 1 puts this idea to rest.

Posted: 1/22/2009 8:40 PM

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FractalFusion

Editor, Expert player (2071)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282

Gate Lab 1 & 2 done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmwTafx6_fI (might not be ready yet) Movie file: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?dgwm1yojcw2 Don't get a heart attack at the High Max fight. :) But basically, High Max goes into berserker mode when his barrier is destroyed twice, regardless of his health. While that is a good thing, that is unsettling because, unless I am mistaken, Zero can also beat Gate Lab 2. While Zero's level after High Max is a compactor (meaning it will go slowly), the part before High Max will go very fast. Also, using X no longer saves 20-30 seconds over using Zero for High Max. More testing should be done.

Posted: 1/24/2009 10:25 PM

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FractalFusion

Editor, Expert player (2071)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282

MMX6 any% done. Clear time is 26:47 at last dialog (I know it doesn't make it past the cutscene, but whatever). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAgNGY0OiaE Movie file: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mno21ynjywo I found a method of SDCing that does 2 hits every 5 frames. It goes as follows (assuming Zero is just left of the boss): <O [] _ _ > repeated over and over. This relies on the following glitch: If Zero starts the first ground saber and turns the other way, he instantly goes into the second saber swing. Zero can also have the first ground saber hit behind him for 1 hit every 3 frames. Note that in the run, I used 1/3 SDC up until Blizzard Wolfang (when I discovered the 2/5 SDC), then I used 2/5 SDC after that. Oh, and Guard Shell saves like one second or less in Gate 3.

Posted: 1/24/2009 10:37 PM

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DarkKobold

Skilled player (1651)

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy

Is there a reason you are not submitting?

Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.

Posted: 1/25/2009 9:23 AM

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FractalFusion

Editor, Expert player (2071)

Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3282

This is just a test run. I know it can be improved. Besides, v0.0.5 movies are not accepted at this site.

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