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Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
So it seems like you stunned Kraid enough to get close to him before it fires his spikes. I don't think you've got him completely stunned the whole time though. You can see his sprite change. So I think he's still able to do stuff. Like he needed 4 frames to shoot the spike and you just made that take a long time but he still managed to get 4 frames of action in. I would try shooting at different frames to see if you can get a more complete stun going. If you can't stun him completely I'm not sure what you can do about that middle spike. I'm pretty sure you can't morph over it, so you'd have to jump and then you'd likely lose all your time again. I thought he always fire the middle spike second, that's funny.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Former player
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 146
Location: Dirty South, USA.
If anyone wanted this as a reference, here's as far as I got with my latest 100% attempt (not very far). I did manage to improve the 3rd room quite a bit and some other things as well. Password entry is super-fast, too. =) I got to the first Ice Beam shaft. I gave up out of frustration of the RNG refusing to give me missiles in the rooms leading up to that point, causing me to lose time. :/ I tried every frame possible to get missiles, but it just wasn't happening. I just don't have the patience required to do another run. I would love to see someone do the 100%, though. My old one could be improved in pretty much every room. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/695371157/ZoiziteMetroid100%25v2.fcm
If for honesty, you want apologies, I don't sympathize.
Joined: 8/30/2005
Posts: 5
Woohoo, i just completed Metroid (on my Zero mission bonus game) for the first time in my life, used to play this game on my old nintendo when i were little but it was far to hard to complete back then. Took me lots and lots of tries to kill kraid and even more to manage to figure out how to kill mother brain with all the freeze freeze freeze nuke wiht missiles and repeat^^ Im proud tbh!
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5775
Location: Away
Aww, sad to hear that, Zoizite. :\ It might be that I and some other players will give it a shot in the [possibly] near future, though; so anyway, thanks for your help.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
Something I was thinking about. If we can do a door glitch from the left, can we do one from the right? Another thing I was thinking about: can we do a speed run using the "JUSTIN BAILEY ------ ------" password? If so, we can just grab a freeze ray and go straight to Touria; we already have enough missiles to destroy Mother Brain, we just have to dodge the metroids and some of those little "cheerios" that keep popping out.
Former player
Joined: 11/13/2005
Posts: 1587
symbolic X wrote:
Another thing I was thinking about: can we do a speed run using the "JUSTIN BAILEY ------ ------" password?.
No. That would be stupid since Metroid is all about exploring.
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
Okay, it is possible to do a door glitch from the right side of the screen, too!
Active player (328)
Joined: 2/23/2005
Posts: 786
Yeah, but is it possible/useful anywhere else?
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
I don't know if it would be any faster to use it quicker to get to Kraid's hideout. I mean in that one part, a TAS'er used the left door to glitch into the platform on the left. But when I looked there, there was no platform on the right, so Samus didn't have to run a lot from the right just to take the fall. However, she did have to run all the way over there (from the left) just to get there, so I think frames may be wasted should the TAS'er attempt this stunt. Another thing I need to compare. When getting out of Kraid's hideout, is it any faster to climb back up? Or what about using a restart sequence as soon as Samus leaves Kraid's hideout via elevator? Kinda like this.
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
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I've compared the run between the restart sequence and the fastest climb after leaving Kraid's hideout. The restart sequence was not as fast as I thought. =(
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
what was the time difference? I forget if I even tested this when I did my run, though I probably did.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
I had problems keeping both the fastest TAS and my restart sequence demo (both beginned when Samus left Kraid's lair) synched, but the fast TAS (climbing) was at least 1 sec. quicker than mine. Another thing I was thinking about. Could it be possible to try to work around walls and attack Mother Brain from behind? We know there is a big gap between the hidden escape exit and the back end of the brain's glass container.
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I kinda doubt it. How would you get back there? I suppose if it were possible, it might save time skipping the zebetites.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Banned User
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 742
Location: Gone
That was one of my ideas. And I got another strategy. It takes straight luck manipulation to do it. But in that same part where Samus has to use missiles to take out those crazy-looking containers that shrinks. On one part, there is Samus that jumps while in the air (after coming out of a morphing ball) to blast away on those things. The other part is freezing one of the "cheerios" in the right section next to the containers so that Samus would get closer to them and increase the speed of missile shots just to get rid of them quicker. It's similar to standing right next to the 10-missile door after entering Touria, but either way, it has to be the precise aim or Samus can't get through. Which reminds me, this demo of mine shows that Metroid lags when Samus is trying to get rid of them things... Grr...
Lord_Tom
He/Him
Expert player (3142)
Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England
I'm working on improvements to the 1-item and any % run right now. My preference would be for one or the other of these to obsolete the no-mini-bosses run as well; I'm not really interested in improving it and as has been noted it doesn't really show anything all that great.* For the any %, I've found faster ways to get to Kraid's elevator and the ice beam, along with a small improvement to the Wrong-Way Door Glitch (which is about the awesomest glitch ever, IMO). The final descent to Kraid and the Kraid fight itself are on my list to look into improving, but haven't gotten to it yet. I sorta doubt there's much time left to squeeze out of Tourian, but I'll try. The 1-item run will benefit from these improvements as well as a bunch of time using tricks from Hero's any %. The internals of this game are a bit wierd...Kraid has hp ($40b) whereas MB and the zebetites store "hits taken" ($99 and $77b, respectively) Anyone have any bright ideas they'd like to see included or explored? Thanks... *The no-bosses run does show how Mother Brain does not heal, even after you leave her room, which I didn't know until just now.
Player (121)
Joined: 2/11/2007
Posts: 1522
I can't really help, but I'm sure I speak for many when I say that I eagerly await this... good luck!
I make a comic with no image files and you should read it. While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. -Eugene Debs
Active player (328)
Joined: 2/23/2005
Posts: 786
If you could find a way to kill Kraid without jumping (Check previous page of this tread), that would be awesome.
Lord_Tom
He/Him
Expert player (3142)
Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England
Yeah, that's definitely on the list; impressive result, by the way, getting him down over halfway before he fires. It seems that early on it's possible to get Kraid not to fire projectiles by pause-unpause at strategic points. However, after a few cycles it fails to work, so I think at some point he enters a pattern where he will definitely fire no matter what Samus does. I'm guessing that your movie enters the room with him starting further (but not quite far enough) from this auto-fire-pattern. I'll see if varying my entry changes anything. All total speculation, of course. I also noticed that while Kraid is being hammered, the mod 33 frame counter at $18 is pegged at 32; it resumes counting the instant he fires the missile. Doesn't explain why, of course...
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
The improvements I know about: 1. When first warping down into the kraid elevator column you can fall out of the wall before you actually see your sprite, meaning you have actually warped from top to bottom before you see your sprite on the bottom. I think this means falling out of the wall before a platform that sticks out of the wall, saving a lot of time. 2. After shooting the bottom right door open before kraid elevator you can scroll the screen down a little with a quick morph and unmorph, this makes the auto-center not take as long and saves a couple frames. 3. After the WWDJ, before the long scroll screen down phase, when you first shoot the door open and start to climb up, climb until your off the screen but stop before you actually warp to the bottom, there's one special position there. Fall out of the wall at this special position and the screen will down scroll as you fall, keeping you off the screen, then shoot the door open again and resume normal screen scrolling. Saves like 2 seconds. 4. Use morph vertical screen scroll trick at middle brinstar row, two separate doors. 5. After warping around to fall into ice beam column, don't unmorph until you can shoot the door if not necessary. 6. Use morph vertical screen scroll trick at ice beam door. 7. Use morph vertical screen scroll trick at top brinstar door. 8. When entering the final column after MB, enter door so your on the floor when you come out. You move faster while on the ground so it saves 1-2 frames. Some ideas for possible improvements: 1. Manipulate enemies at first Kraid column so you can move more to the left at the end not have to unmorph until your able to shoot the door. 2. If you have to jump over Kraid's missiles, don't stun him until after your about to land. Reasoning, the first stun will delay missiles and make you have to jump higher, which could be more of a delay than the extra hit saves. 3. Manipulate more enemies to reduce lag, even if it's just shooting to stun them it can reduce lag and save frames.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Lord_Tom
He/Him
Expert player (3142)
Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England
Thanks, will look into all of the above. My current thinking is that it is impossible to kill Kraid w/o him firing his spikes...:(
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Ya, no one really knows what makes that address change and he fires. Maybe if you could find some memory address that's iterating you could monitor it and find a way to keep it from integrating. Like maybe shooting at different frames. Currently do we shoot every other frame? Maybe some of time samus doesn't actually shoot and you might have to fire in some irregular way, like B_B__B_B_B__B_B__B. But kind of seems unlikely since we don't know of any reason why you couldn't fire every other frame. Probably wouldn't be too hard to find the address that flags when you can't fire. Could make sure that never flags during the kraid fight.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
P.JBoy
Any
Editor
Joined: 3/25/2006
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Location: stuck in Pandora's box HELLPP!!!
I really need to learn how to use FCEU's cheat search, it's weird and confusing to me
Active player (377)
Joined: 6/5/2006
Posts: 188
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Actually, we currently shoot every frame I believe. An interesting quirk about Metroid means that holding B and spamming another button will make Samus shoot both when you press the button and when you release it.
Even the best player is limited by the speed of his fingers, or his mind's ability to control them. But what happens when speed is not a factor, when theory becomes reality?
Lord_Tom
He/Him
Expert player (3142)
Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England
That is correct, however, only 3 bullets are allowed to be on the screen at once. CAD's demo fight which gets Kraid down to 44 hp gets into a pattern where Kraid takes 1 point of damage every 4 frames. It is on the frame where Kraid takes damage that the animation counter for his feet advances by 1. Hence, while he is being fired at every frame, he is still able to act at 1/4 speed relative to Samus. Kraid's bullets do not appear to fire in concert with his animation counter, but I have not found an independent counter that controls their action. Incidentally, missiles do 4 points damage, but beams only 1. The existing 100% run fires missiles at Kraid, but only hits him with the first 1; the rest of the missile "hits" are ignored and he only takes 1 point damage at a time (beacause the beam is also being fired)...this could probably be improved in a 100% improvement. EDIT: A couple of interesting discoveries... 1. Firing every frame confers no advantage on bosses; it only increases lag. With proper pixel alignment and timing, one shot every 4th frame suffices to maximally stun Kraid. 2. Kraid's projectiles are controlled by counters at $2d, $429 and $42d. $2d is the frame counter and can be manipulated via pause/unpause; at multiples of 16 frames Kraid has a chance of firing. $429 and $42d are animation counters, NOT affected by pausing, and count down from 156 and 256 when Kraid starts moving. When they reach values of 1 and 100, Kraid will fire no matter what the frame count is. 3. So, a definite no go on killing Kraid without dodging his projectiles. I cut about 1/2 second off Hero's Kraid fight by minimizing the time in the air dodging. 4. In case this isn't widely known, the partially commented source code is available: http://mdb.classicgaming.gamespy.com/m1/m1source.txt
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Half a second saved on the kraid fight, nice :D Does this mean you are already up to Kraid in your run, or was that just a test fight?
They're off to find the hero of the day...
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