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marzojr
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After some investigation, it seems related to the starpost or the region of the level before and up it -- if I stop long enough there for the camera to catch up with Sonic still there, I can't do the glitch. If I stop dead at x = 12762 (jump, release jump, hyper launch down) and wait for the camera to catch up, I can always do the glitch; If I stop dead at x = 13745 and wait for the camera, I can't. If I stop dead at x = 13745 but hyper launch forward before the camera catches up (even delaying the hyper launch a couple of frames or so), I can do the glitch. I still haven't been able to reproduce it as regular Sonic, though.
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Barring me (or upthorn, or someone else) determining how the HC1-2 transition death glitch I stumbled on works, this will be the version I submit for the any% run. The changes from the published run: Hidrocity 1: Improved boss fight to gain 16 frames. Hidrocity 2: death sequence improved by 10 frames down to 0:09::09. No matter what I did, I simply could not reduce that 1 last frame -- even getting the position right down to the subpixel level and feeding the same input results in 1 frame lost. Sonic even dies at the same timer value, but the timer goes for 1 extra frame... There is also the off-screen manipulation of Tails for a vastly improved boss fight, leading to 179 frames of improvement. Marble Garden 1: Removed the luck-manipulation pauses at the start. Also, better offscreen manipulation of Tails leads to a better boss fight, with 22 frames of improvement. Marble Garden 2: Improved the entrance into the wall and the better boss configuration gives an improvement of 17 frames. There is a boss configuration that allows an extra frame of in-game time, but it takes too long to manipulate it. Launch Base 1: Better boss fight yields 38 frames of improvement. Edit: I forgot: I delay the death after the boss fight by 2 frames in order to manipulate the first flamethrower Sonic encounters in act 2. If I didn't, Sonic would be hurt by it and lose quite a bit of time. Launch Base 2: the cutscene has been improved by 8 frames. No matter what I did, I could not get it to reduce the extra 2 frames I got for the new game+ run. Flying Battery 1: New route from the new game+ run gives 726 frames of improvement. I crosses a time boundary, and ended up losing 400 frames in real time due to the score tally. Flying Battery 2: New route from the new game+ run gives 207 frames of improvement. Sandopolis 2: Removed all luck manipulation pauses at the end. Lava Reef 1: Replayed mini-boss battle which desynched. Lava Reef 2: Replayed due to aforementioned desynch. More precision at the very end give 3 frames of improvement. Sky Sanctuary: Replayed boss battle, which had desynched. There are 20 frames worth of pauses at the end to get the Death Egg 1 boss to synch. It may be possible to remove some of these frames if said boss is replayed, but most of the early frames involve a highly unfavorable behavior of his platforms. Total: 1208 frames (20 seconds, 8 frames) shaved from the published run in in-game time, 832 frames (13 seconds, 52 frames) shaved in real time. If you do the math, you will see that the removed pauses and differences in lag compensated 6 of the 400 frames lost in the Flying Battery 1 score tally.
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marzojr
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Ah, sorry; here it is. Edit: I have kept the new game+ state-anchored movie to show the glitch because I don't know how to reproduce it yet. So far, that is the only movie I have been able to do it in.
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That is... odd. I was updating the any% run with the new tricks when I noticed that the new game+ version of Hydrocity 1 could be improved a but; it turns out I managed to improve it by 18 frames, down to 0:32::26. The really odd part is: for whatever reason, the screen remained vertically locked after I killed the boss, and remained so after act 2 began. At that point, when Sonic went down the drain he reached the bottom of the screen and died. So instead of wasting 0:09::08 to die, I now spend 0:05::21, an improvement of 0:03::47. I have been utterly unable to reproduce this for the any% run, and I have no idea what has happened. The movie is here, up to the start of Hydrocity 2 (I will have to resynch Marble Garden 2 again, due to luck; and I am betting that Cassino Night 2 and Mushroom Hill 2 will also desynch... *sigh*). If anyone has any idea what happened there, I'd love to know...
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The submission (and sumbission text) has been changed. For everyone that already voted, if you think your vote might change, be sure to watch it again.
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HHS wrote:
Actually, no calculation of angles is necessary, just a plain old quadratic equation:
You are, of course, correct; in my defense, I was too tired when I wrote that :-)
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In order to solve that, you need to compute what time has elapsed in B's clocks; the time intervals will, of course, be different based on the position of the clock, because A will "see" things in his own simultaneity lines. Which brings me to a small quibble -- in Physics, particularly Relativity, it is customary to distinguish between "seeing" and "observing". "Seeing" something means that the light from the object has reached your eyes; "observing" something means that, after seeing it, you subtract the light travel time and distance in order to work out the event from which the light came from. Usually, what you see is different from what you observe. So I will assume that you are asking what (the bow of) A will observe in B's clock; this will be easier to work out. Now, back to the problem: to work out what A observes each clock of B to be at any given instance of A's time, we have to work out how much time has elapsed in B since its t = 0 line and until the desired events which A considers to be simultaneous. First, lets work out how much time has elapsed in B's stern from B's time t = 0 until A's time 1 s (when the bow of A coincides with the stern of B). This is easy, because we already know it: it is 2 s. This is the length of the gray line that goes from the bottom-right end of the lowest purple line until the rightmost point of the yellow line. A quick aside: I have been using L for the (rest) length of the ships. I just realized, however, that the problem allows us to obtain how much it is. We know that, in ship A's point of view, ship B took 1 s to pass the bow of A, and that the length of B in A's frame is half the length of A -- the gamma factor between them is 2. The first info means that the speed of ship B in A's frame is L/2s; plugging this into the formula for the gamma factor gives
2 = gamma = 1/sqrt(1 - (L/(2s*c))^2)
4 - (L/(1s*c))^2 = 1
L = sqrt(3) * 1 s * c
or sqrt(3) light-seconds (about 5.2E8 m) -- those ships are HUGE! (there is a way to obtain this from the diagram as well, but I will leave it as an exercise :-p). Now to the bow of B from B's time t = 0 until A's time of 1 s. This will be the length of the stretch of pink line going from lower-left point of light blue line until the lower-left point of middle light blue line. We know the coordinates of these points in A's frame -- one is (0, 0), while the other is (1 s, -sqrt(3)/2 light-seconds). So the time interval between these two is
dt = sqrt((1 s)^2 - (-sqrt(3)/2 s)^2) = sqrt(1 - 3/4) s = 0.5 s
So at time t = 1 s according to ship A, the clocks at the bow and stern of ship B were observed to be, respectively, 0.5 s and 2 s. This 1.5 s difference will be maintained by the clocks of B as observed in A's frame because they travel with the same speed.
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Hmm. I am now at a loss: by the submission guidelines, it seems I must cancel this submission and submit the improved run; is that correct?
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@Warp: A more in-depth explanation: Minkowski diagrams are very similar to standard x-y graphs: you read off points as you would read in any such plots -- to get the t coordinate in any given reference frame, you trace a line parallel to that frame's simultaneity line until it reaches the time axis for that reference frame and read the value at the time axis (and vice versa to get the position). The only difference is the distance function -- in a x-y graph, you use Pythagoras theorem to get the distance along slanted curves, in a Minkowski diagram, you measure the space-time interval given by the Minkowski metric. I would link to the Wikipedia page on this, but it is highly technical; so the short version: In space-time, you can define a "distance" between any two events by the following formula:
S = (c * delta-t)^2 - (delta-x)^2 - (delta-y)^2 - (delta-z)^2
If S > 0, you have what is called a timelike interval, and sqrt(S)/c is the proper time interval that elapses on an inertial reference frame that considers these two events to have the same spatial coordinates -- and there will be such frames (this would be an absolute "temporal distance" between the two events). Moreover, you will have a fixed, definite, temporal ordering of these two events -- there will not be any reference frame (inertial or otherwise) which considers these two events to be simultaneous or which reverses the order in which these two events happen (this would require either traveling back in time or superluminal speeds). Conversely, you cannot define any absolute spatial distance between these events. If S < 0, you have a spacelike interval, and sqrt(-S) is the proper distance between the two events in any inertial reference frame that considers them to have the same time coordinates -- i.e., simultaneous (this will be an absolute spacial distance between the two events). You cannot define any absolute temporal order between these two events, and there are reference frames (inertial or otherwise) in which either event may happen before the other; moreover, you cannot find any reference frame (inertial or otherwise) in which these two events are at the same spatial location (this would require superluminal speeds). If S = 0, you have a null or lightlike interval -- the interval is zero, and this means that the two events can be connected by a beam of light. The Pythagorean distance is invariant with regard to rotations of the coordinate systems (as well as translations); likewise, the Minkowski interval is invariant with regards to purely spatial rotations, as well as rotations in a plane involving the time axis -- these are called Lorentz transformations. If you add translations of the coordinate system to the Lorentz transformations, you reach the Poincaré transformations, which also preserve the Minkowski interval. All of this is based on the prevailing modern view of Relativity as being a study of the geometry of space-time, by the way; and while, historically, the Minkowski interval was derived from the Lorentz transformations, it is now known today that it is the interval -- the space-time metric -- which is the important thing. In particular, according to this distance function, you have one important consequence (which I am not going to prove): return to the first 3 diagrams I posted and look at either the left or right diagrams. In these diagrams, the more vertical gray lines (the ones which have arrows in the last diagram I posted) are orthogonal to the more horizontal gray lines. That is a Lorentz transformation, or a rotation in space-time for you :-) ----------------------- So, with all of that in mind, let us return to the last diagram I posted. If you notice, some of the gray lines have arrows in them, as does one of the black lines. These are the temporal axis of the moving ships. While I drew two for each ship, one for the bow and one for the stern of each ship, you only need one -- any one, including any other you wish to draw which is parallel to these. Selecting one means selecting what position each ship considers to be position x = 0 in its frame. Lets pick the time axis on the bow of each ship. The gray lines without arrows, the simultaneity lines, work similarly. You can pick one to indicate what you consider the time t = 0 according to that frame (including one parallel to the ones I drew). Lets pick the lower gray lines to be the time t = 0. Combined with the above, all 3 reference frames have the same event as the origin of their coordinate systems. Hopefully, now things are starting to become more clear. So I will now start some analysis of the diagram to illustrate how it goes. I will assume that the ships have proper lengths equal to L from now on. First, the point where the two black lines meet -- the origin. This point has the coordinates (t, x) = (0, 0) in the 3 coordinate systems. Now, the yellow line has two endpoints: the origin and the point where the stern of B coincides with the bow of A. Now, the bow of A is always at position x = 0 according to A, and in the problem, we assumed that this happens when the clock at A marks 1 s. Thus, the other endpoint is at (t, x) = (1 s, 0) according to ship A. The Minkowski interval tells us that this is a proper time interval, and the time that elapses in A is 1 s -- which we already knew. Moving this to other reference frames will be tricky yet, so I will leave it for later. Take now the orange lines: they have as one endpoint the bow of ship A and ad the other endpoint the stern of ship A. At this point, we can obtain the coordinates of the endpoints of all of the orange lines in the reference frame of A: the lowest orange line goes from (0, -L) to (0, 0), while the middle orange line goes from (1 s, -L) to (1 s, 0). Both of these come from the description of the problem. Now to find the endpoints of the topmost orange line: the defining characteristic is that the stern of ship B has moved enough (from the point of view of ship A) that it now coincides with the stern of ship A. By hypothesis, ship B has then moved (according to ship A) 3 times its length (in A's point of view) -- since it took B 1 s to move its own length (again, according to A), then the topmost orange line has coordinates going from (3 s, -L) to (3 s, 0) according to A. And so on. The trickiest thing to calculate are the speeds of A and B according to the external reference frame, as well as the gamma factor for this speed; this is because you need to calculate the hyperbolic angle and use inverse hyperbolic tangents and so on (see this for something about hyperbolic functions). -------------------------- Now, there is what HHS said. You can (hopefully) verify it from the diagram now.
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Sandopolis 2 starts with a glitch courtesy of Tails -- after being brought flying into the handle and moving away, Sonic starts to accumulate vertical speed down; this can go on almost without limit. Once the handle is far enough off-screen to be unloaded, Sonic will fall at the current speed; in the run, I accumulate enough speed to get past the floor and almost all the way down the sand waterfall before letting go. Since the level wraps vertically, I then glitch into Knuckles' route -- normally, only he can get there, and there are walls only Knuckles can break, one of which is in my way. I spindash (full rev) from far enough that I can bypass it by moving it offscreen with a 1-rev spindash, grab the giant ring and turn hyper. During the screen flash from the first hyperlaunch, I glitch into the conveniently placed ledge and into a zip. Inside the wall, I use a jump and a hyperlaunch down do go down one level in the wall so I can get off in a better position. Sonic then appears onscreen again, jumping diagonally, to hyperlaunch diagonally down, skipping past an annoying ledge and stopping in front of the sand slide. The route then meets again the one from the 100% run, where I stay until I meet the next robo-scorpion; there, I glitch inside the floor using the sloped terrain and fall (inside the wall) into one of those moving crushers. I use it to spindash to a suitable area and hyperlaunch down into another zip, coming next to a lever. I need to push the lever slightly -- just enough that I can squeeze below the door and hyperlaunch into the ground again, and into another zip. I come out from the ground near an (offscreen) robo-scorpion and a pushable moving rock, but I quickly go to another lever and open the door enough to squeeze below it with a spindash. After the moving spiked crusher, the route meets again with the 100% route and continues along it, only it is more optimized.
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Nice! You found the right combination! I tried several times and always had failed -- I always lost time. But not to be outdone, I went ahead and improved your movie by 17 frames, down to 0:9::47. Sub-10! Here is the movie. I will update the submission and credit you accordingly.
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Here is the WIP I promised in the previous post. The change in Hydrocity led to desynchs in Marble Garden 2 and Carnival Night 2 due to luck (I hate those balloons) and in Mushroom Hill 2 due to differences in lag (some 5 frames less lag in the new version, in fact). It is all resynched -- Mushroom Hill 2 was the easiest.
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Try again, it is already back up.
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Actually, the left diagram is the point of view of ship A as plotted in the external reference frame. I did this so that times and distances for A and B can be directly compared since they have the same speed in that frame. If it helps, here is the combined diagram: This picture is the combination of the 3 images above, plus 3 more lines. The 3 new lines show, in the 3 different frames, the time that the bow of ship B takes to move from bow to stern of ship A. The yellow line and the pink line show the times as measured at the bow of A and B, respectively, and are on the same scale (as the ships have the same speed in this diagram); the cyan line is in the external reference frame, and is in another scale. If the yellow line is 1 second, then the cyan line is sqrt(3/2) (as HHS stated) and the pink line is 2 seconds (it is roughly twice as long in the image, and doing the math will show this to be the case). If the time interval in question is measured at another point in the ships, you can just slide the respective line keeping the endpoints in the same simultaneity lines (for the cyan line, this means "horizontally"). As you can see, these time intervals measure quite different things. And since they only share one event (the origin), it doesn't really make sense to compare them. Now we go to the clocks. If we are going to assume that the folks at ship A are smart enough to check the clock of B at both relevant events and measure the delta, this question can be answered objectively. Otherwise, it will depend on where the clock is located in ship B. Assuming smart folks, we can place the clock somewhere convenient -- say, at the stern of ship B. Then, we have a Minkowski triangle with two known sides (the yellow line and the lowest light blue line) and one unknown side (the gray line between them). This unknown side is the time interval elapsed in the bow of ship B between the two relevant events as seen by A. Now, the side can be calculated if we have the rest length of the ships. I will represent this length by L (this is the length of the orange and purple lines). We know that whatever this rest length is, the light blue lines (and the green lines too) will be half of this: L/2. The yellow line has "length" equal to c * 1 s. Putting in the proper time formula (which is a special case of the space-time version of Pythagoras theorem), we have that the desired time interval dt is dt = sqrt[(1 s)^2 - (L/2c)^2] This is how much time will elapse in a clock on ship B as seen by ship A in the problem at hand. I hope this is clear enough; this kind of thing is much easier to explain in person, having instantaneous feedback from the subject if something is unclear...
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Post subject: Re: Physics questions
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Warp wrote:
As we all know, the speed of light in vacuum is the same for all inertial frames of reference, and because of that, movement in inertial frames of reference is subject to Lorentz transformations.
[nitpick]This only holds on a local basis due to space-time actually being curved (General Relativity and all), but nevermind.[/nitpick]
Warp wrote:
For this reason if there are two spaceships travelling to opposite directions at speed s (from an external observer's point of view), if ship A measures the speed of ship B as it perceives it, it's not 2*s, but something less (and always less than c). It happens because ship B appears contracted in the direction of the movement.
And because time flows differently for A and B than it did from that external observer relative to which both travel at speed s; if you don't include this, the math comes all wrong.
Warp wrote:
Let's assume that ship A measures the speed of ship B by starting a clock when the bows of both ships coincide, and stops the clock when the bow of ship A coincides with the stern of ship B. [snip]
Ah, a simultaneity paradox. These can be tricky to work out, yes. Here, it is easier with a few pictures: In all pictures, time is on the vertical. The pictures are roughly to the scale of the problem (A views B as having about half its length). There are Minkowski diagrams, by the way. On the center is the situation according to the external reference frame in which ships A and B have the same length and move at the same speed; ship A is red, ship B is blue. On the left is the situation as viewed by ship A plotted on the external reference frame; ship A is orange, ship B is light blue. In gray are the simultaneity lines of A (the more horizontal gray lines) and the lines of constant position of A (the more vertical gray lines). In English, this means 'the points which A considers to be simultaneous' and 'the points which A considers to be stationary'. On the right is the situation as viewed by ship B plotted on the external reference frame; ship A is purple, ship B is green. In gray are the simultaneity lines of B (the more horizontal gray lines) and the lines of constant position of B (the more vertical gray lines). In English, this means 'the points which B considers to be simultaneous' and 'the points which B considers to be stationary'. Note that there is some overlap between A and B in the 3 images in the middle lines; these are where the stern of ship B coincides with the bow of ship A according to ship A (left), the external observer (center) and B (right). In the left and right pictures, you have to explicitly include the Lorentz factor on any distances and times measured along the gray lines (due to Minkowski geometry). As you can see, the situation is quite asymmetrical as viewed from within the ships (not so much for the external observer). If anything is unclear, please say so and I will attempt to explain it better.
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Oh, joy! I just spent the whole day with an idea on how to further improve Hydrocity 2 and now that I was finally able to try, it paid off! I managed to reduce Hydrocity 2 by a further 43 frames, down to 0:25::24. The WIP desynchs due to luck differences at the Marble Garden 2 boss; I will be correcting this (and any other desynchs) and post the video tomorrow (I still have to test several variations of the boss fight to make sure this is the fastest -- it seems to me that it might be possible to squeeze an extra frame or 2). With that, I now have the following improvements to the any% run:
Level                           Improvement
Hidrocity 2 death               11
Hidrovity 2                     179
Marble Garden 2                 18
Launch Base 2 final cutscene    10
Flying Battery 1                726
Flying Battery 2                207
Lava Reef 2                     2
That is a whooping 1153 frames of improvement -- 19 seconds and 13 frames. I smell another revision on the way... Now, the issue is whether I wait until the New game+ version is finished to submit them together or whether I submit it now, before the New game+.
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I marked the thread as 'solved'.
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New WIP up to Hidden Palace, improving Mushroom Hill 2 by 41 frames to a final time of 0:30::50.
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I don't know where else to report this, but here it is. The Microstorage home page (http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php) is returning the following message:
Microstorage wrote:
Database inactive. Upload cannot be saved right now.
Moreover, trying to download any movies (e.g., http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/114930917/S2.gmv) returns the error message
Microstorage wrote:
Database inactive. Data not retrievable.
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Sorry, you are right: the boss itself is loaded when the camera gets past that position; the pillars, however, are loaded when the camera position is >= 10256.
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I have a new WIP until the end of SandopolisHidden Palace; when Microstorage's database is back up, I will post it here. Meanwhile, here are the differences: Edit: Here is the new WIP. Hydrocity 2: I manipulated Tails to show up at the start of the boss fight. The result: final time of 0:26::33, or 1 second 50 frames0:26::07, or 2 seconds 16 frames improvement from the any% run. The TAS is now back to being faster in this level :-) This improvement can also be done in the any% run. Marble Garden 2: Had to resynch the boss fight, which desynched due to luck issues. Carnival Night 2: Also desynched: baloons were in the wrong locations. Upon resynch, time went down to 0:40::24, an improvement of 14 frames. Mushroom Hill 2: Also deynched. Resynching led to 1 second 55 frames of improvement, for a final time of 0:31::31. Edit: Lava Reef 1: With a few frames gained from better precision, quite a bit more from a better path near the big ring, and the help of Tails at the start and at the boss, the final level time is 0:52::590:52::41, which means a total of 4 seconds 1533 frames of savings from the 100% run. Lava Reef 2: Slightly different subpixel position and an extra rev in the last spindash mean a final time of 0:21::42 when the timer stops, a 2 frame improvement from the any% run. Hidden Palace: Basically identical to the any% run. The emeralds caused a desynch versus Robotnik, and I had to resynch from then on; the extra hit on Robotnik was necessary to get Tails in the right position.
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I have been poking in the S2 disassembly, and indeed the boss in AR2 is triggered by the camera position -- camera X needs to be >= 10816 for the boss to be loaded and start moving.
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Hmm. By that explanation, it seems that there is no other way then -- the pauses have to occur all then and there. But now that they are properly explained, the impact is much lessened... just be sure to include a variation on the above explanation on the submission to prevent more people from complaining :-).
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Nice work. The only jarring thing are those pauses at the end of AR2 -- is there no way to spread them slightly during that last stretch? they are far too long, and quite noticeable even in normal time. Edit: also, I take it that any possible frames gained by jumping at 0:16::52 in AR2 aren't enough to achieve the luck manipulation that those pauses do?
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Ah, Labyrinth 1. Yes, Tails goes pretty fast; but despite all my attempts (which weren't few, I tell you), I have been unable to reproduce that zip: Tails hits the wall on the right, and I haven't been able to get inside it. I think it may be related to the different hitbox size placing Tails too low and to the right compared to Sonic, combined with not enough space to slow down enough to compensate.
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