In the end it may not be possible to track whose input survived where. Does that mean some of the people who successfully improved the overall work can be dropped from the final authors, even though it was a group effort?
If it's submitted and someone actually works alone and overwrites everything, of course they would be a single author. But for a group effort, it's fair to count everyone's intermediate improvement. Especially when they do not deny co-authorship explicitly. Your personal rules are too strict, the site doesn't work that way.
TASeditor wrote:
You rejected the co-authorship by done exactly nothing, except little when being asked.
It's called an assumption. Why would we rely on assumptions in a hobby that consists of checking everything all the time?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
If this submission isn't relevant anymore, please cancel it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
10 seconds of net backtracking sounds like it's worth including this bit in the 100% TAS definition, at least in the future, for completeness.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
TASeditor wrote:
If someone doesn't have made inputs for my TAS, but helped otherwise, they get credited in submission text.
EZGames69 wrote:
So you never received any input file from him ever?
TASeditor wrote:
I did, but none of his input is in my submission file.
If you can't figure out how to improve something, then show your movie to another person, and that person manages to improve your times and sends you their input, then they have contributed to the overall product by making it more optimal. If you then improve it further, you're using their contribution as a basis (you call it a reference).
If the only help you've received was textual explanations, then it's entirely up to you how to credit that. But if the other person contributed ideas implemented as input files that improved your times, then it's co-authorship. This is how we handle frame wars too: someone's intermediate input may not have survived in the end, but they managed to make the overall work more optimal, so they deserve credit.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Xipo wrote:
feos!I used to think you were a just man.But that was before,now I've changed my mind.You define co-work different in different periods.Do you remember this tas?The submitter is you,feos.You retained my 99.9999% input and made a little change.Then you wrote your name in co-work.After that I improved this tas again,all the input belonged to me,originality came from Koh1fds,this means there is nothing to do with you there.Why did you retain your name in co-author?
Koh1fds discovered the new technique, I implemented it after your input. Since most of the input was still yours, I put you as the main author of the movie. You asked for explanation of how the glitch works, I explained it, then you improved the segment I made. I tried improving it time-wise and couldn't. I tried making it more entertaining, and couldn't make more entertaining glitches fit into the movie length.
I didn't exclude you from the author list, and I also included Koh1fds who hadn't actually send me any inputs, only discovered the glitch. What is unjust here? I'm not even saying "only people whose input is in the movie need to be credited", because that's not what I think. Any significant contribution can be credited as co-authorship, for example research and development, route planning, etc. I made your movie shorter, you made my movie shorter, we are both co-authors of it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
I watched the video.
If I ask someone to co-work on a new movie with me, get a lot of help, and then only submit my own input to remain the only author, that would be extremely questionable.
The way co-authorship works is, I send my WIPs to my partner, who then improves my times and sends it back to me, then I improve, and so on. With constant back-and-forth, we try to improve upon each other in every spot, until we can't improve it anymore. But then there may be all other ways of contributing, and depending on how important the helping was, one either gets credited as a co-author or just as someone in the Thanks section.
Xipo, have you actually improved TASeditor's times and sent him those as movies? I'm asking here so that everyone doesn't have to watch the video.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
How much longer would this movie be if it included Full clearing each level?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Evil_3D wrote:
feos wrote:
Um, what is Avpag?
Sorry I think my keyboard is on another language.
You need to press "Page Down" 1 time instead of Page up to activate Tails camera
It still reset after the first level :/
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
<Spikestuff> > New Tekken 7 Character: Fahkumram
<Spikestuff> How... How do I pronounce that...
<Mothrayas> Fahkurmam
<Warepire> Fuck-uhm-RAM?
<scrimpy> Warepire: you have wierd fetishes
<Warepire> scrimpy: You have seen nothing yet
<scrimpy> Do I dare ask
<Mothrayas> does it involve catheters
<Warepire> Mothrayas: Only when I get to slap you with them =)
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
#2 and #3 is how we'd branch this game if we agreed on what clearing a level means. Not losing by the original sport rules feels like the sanest way of defining it, but that's just my preliminary opinion.
If we agree that this game has a meaningful completion criterion, then we won't have to invent new rules or clauses. Adding max score as a valid any% goal mixes it together with full completions. It feels like we're trying to patch away the internal problem of the game that's too simplistic to have traditional any% definition. Not having strictly capped max score makes it worse.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Memory wrote:
You are playing through all of the events with a goal of aiming for the high score. By playing all the events you are going through all unique content the game has to offer and high score adds an objective to aim for. If completion is considered a problem because of that rule, the rules need to be fixed because it's not like you can just add additional events.
This seems like a rule written with speedruns in mind and is one of the flaws with the site in my opinion.
I think instead we should focus on this, as an explicit rule for sports games:
In sports that depend on a variety of environments or situations, such as golf, completion can be defined by clearing every environment or situation in the game.
Does this movie clear every event? If it does not, maybe it should?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
WarHippy wrote:
Secondly, it keeps getting brought up that there needs to be proof that the score is truly maximum. Where are the guidelines for this? I know it got mentioned in the previous judgment of this submission, but I believe that was by mistake. Max score had only ever been an allowable goal for moons tier, but it was set to be published in Vault so that shouldn’t have been mentioned at all in the notes.
It’s great if you want to definitively prove that it’s the maximum. I just don’t know why that would be required.
Requirement that there must be a hard-coded score cap to count as full completion, has been removed. If score is the only viable way of defining full completion for a game, we don't require you to get absolute maximum (like 100 out of 100 available), even though that's preferable obviously. We require you to gain as much as TAS tools allow you. Which may vary, just like final completion time depends on one's skills.
WarHippy wrote:
So, a couple things... maybe I missed it, but has there been a clear consensus that max score is the only valid completion criteria?
Not yet.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Highest score subjectively makes sense generally, but it doesn't automatically make this movie meet other rules. What is required to make a "max score" run eligible for Vault has been linked a lot of times in this thread, go and read.
electricslide wrote:
The author has already found a way to increase it.
Where? He doesn't say that at all.
I got a PM from him.
electricslide wrote:
What do you mean by "superplay" at all?
Games done to precision beyond unassisted human capabilities.
This does not automatically make that "game" meet any of the movie rules we have.
electricslide wrote:
What ruling?
The reason this game is now being reconsidered now.
You said "the original ruling was crap which is why the rules were changed", and you don't even know what ruling you're calling crap exactly?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Vykan12 wrote:
- "Talk about low attention spans" Seems judgmental at first, but also fairly objective. Why else would so many people be voting no/meh to a video that's less than 180 seconds long?
I think the real reason is how gameplay of this game compares to what a given person uses to enjoy.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Um, what is Avpag?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Evil_3D, how do you make camhack focus on Tails all the time? When I just switch the target with Page Up, it gets reset when the Tails object disappears.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
electricslide wrote:
Are you ever planning to start caring about the site's goals and principles?
Featuring entertaining Tool-Assisted superplay movies? This qualifies. It's a superplay of this particular game.
Which of our movie rules says "being a superplay is enough to get published"?
electricslide wrote:
What you did last time was argue the following. We have 4 bins. This movie doesn't fit in bin 1, bin 2, bin 3 or bin 4, therefore it can't be published. That's crap.
The fact that your ruling would have permitted a 'fastest run' that zoned out of every event as fast as possible indicates that your prior reasoning was massively flawed. If the 'rules' bar good videos, but let through trash videos, then it's clear that the problem has to do with the rules.
This movie is not "fastest run", it sacrifices time to gain higher score. Otherwise I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Provide some quotes regarding who said what and why it was wrong.
electricslide wrote:
In this particular movie you're now arguing that because "we cannot be certain that this is the truly highest score, therefore it can't be published". Which is also crap. Can anyone improve on any of the scores in this game?
I haven't said that even once. Quote?
electricslide wrote:
I noticed that you didn't actually answer my question..
There is no question in your first post of this thread.
electricslide wrote:
In this case, we have a video where there are clear maximums for each event.
Those are not "clear maximums", because when the game is not programmed to limit your score explicitly, any score can be maximum.
electricslide wrote:
There's no way I can see that the score can be manipulated to increase, and there's also no loops in the game.
The author has already found a way to increase it.
electricslide wrote:
So we get back to the question. What would a superplay of this particular game look like? How would a player seek to maximize performance in the game? I think the choices of the submitter make sense to me. Lowest possible time in the track sections, and highest score in the field events.
Sure makes a helluva lot more sense than 'fastest time'.
Goals need to take into account game choices. Certain goals are not going to be appropriate for all games. In this case I think that what's been done here is an appropriate choice to show off what a superplay of this game would look like.
And ultimately, I think that's the main purpose of this site, no? To publish superplays of available games that demonstrate precision, and play beyond what can be achieved by human players.
What do you mean by "superplay" at all?
electricslide wrote:
And the original ruling was crap which is why the rules were changed.
What ruling?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
WarHippy wrote:
So there does exist a game manual
In the Scoring section it says that achieving 1000+ points in any event will award you with a musical tribute. So while the ending doesn't change based on performance, the content does. There is also even an (unofficial?) Club of Champions which awards you Gold status at 10,000 points or more.
Since the game does recognize some form of high score, I believe that unlocking the musical tribute in every event can count as full completion.
That being said (unfortunately) I don't think this game falls under Max Score rules anymore. I think this run would have to be re-done in order to get to 1000 points as fast as possible in each event and then scratching out as soon as possible afterwards.
In Pole Vault you can only get 957 at max, so either way it feels incomplete if we define winning as getting 1000 on each event.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
Thanks! Indeed it's incredible!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
You can help by breaking down how the game actually scores each event and action.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
unwright wrote:
Why is a 2.5 year old submission being necro'd & discussed at all? It's an obvious 'no' and that has been made abundantly clear.
Can we close this one out? Please?
See the bottom of submission text.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
electricslide wrote:
man the original rejection is such crap. Yes, it's possible that the score may be improvable, but until it's actually achieved that the score can be bested, it should have been accepted.
Are you ever planning to start caring about the site's goals and principles?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11287
Location: RU
I looked for "png" and "jpg" and couldn't find any externally hosted embedded images that weren't working. The only ones that don't work are those whose hosting is dead.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Where applicable, the movie must reach an ending screen that positively signifies a game is finished successfully. Reaching a game-over screen is not considered beating the game. If a game shows the same ending screen regardless of success or failure, reaching it is not considered successful completion.
The problem is quite simple and precise: the actual completion requirements are missing from the game.
You can't call "reaching the highest score" game completion because 1) it's a non-binary condition, and 2) it's arbitrary. I may suggest that you're supposed to not fail in any of the attempts. Or to beat some record in each of them. Or something else. When there's no hard requirement for meaningful completion, you can invent any soft requirement, but it would remain artificial, not inherent. Meaningful completion criteria are undefined for this game.
And we can't use max score to outright replace the fastest completion goal, because... that won't help with the completion definition.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
