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ais523 wrote:
Resetting during a save would make the full-game run faster, if the resulting glitchy state were used for something other than immediately ending the game. However, this would presumably be disallowed due to the full-game run being, effectively, "no game end glitch", as we typically disallow suboptimal uses of glitches. So "no reset during save" is the only thing that makes this category different from the regular game-end glitch category, and it would not have an effect in any other game-completion category (because game-end glitches more generally would be banned).
http://tasvideos.org/PublisherGuidelines.html#Structure
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Calculated everything. For secondary acts, time starts when the IGT resets. For others, time starts when the IGT sprite appears on the screen. In a few places I had to start the time when the character starts moving even if the IGT is not ticking yet. Time ends when the boss gets the final hit and you get the boss score. In levels that end abruptly I ended the time on the first lag frame. Launch Base 2 has 2 times because there's a cutscene when the IGT freezes for Sonic, and it's not there for ST. Overall time saved with these calculations is 00:03.58 seconds of gameplay, or 9 seconds 19 frames of IGT.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
But overall I do get what you mean by legitimacy, and I'll add another thing to the legitimacy question, since the save glitches TASes use checksum collision, they also need to use a subframe reset. Particularly, my submission requires a reset that only has about a 60 microsecond window to hit. While this might seem okay on face value, you then realize we can't programmatically reset the console, and the reset has to be done by a human... To be clear, the RTA WR of Crystal had a much bigger window to hit, about 3 milliseconds, which is fairly viable for a human to hit. 60 microseconds is insanely small, it's probably possible to hit, but you might as well just flash the expected save data to the cart after the reset for a possible console verification than spend many days to hit that tiny window. Which even then that is flawed because RTC can possibly just screw you over. So I'd find it somewhat unlikely that the save glitch TAS can be console verified (which I assume would be the objective measure to what's legitimate), at most in theory it should be possible.
Play games that are emulated well wrote:
The goal of our movies is to show what could theoretically be done on a real console.
Post #465348 If the problem with console verification is finding the correct timing for the same exact technique, it's legitimate. If it relies on something that's not emulated correctly, and isn't possible in principle, then it's banned altogether. If we have made an educated assumption that save glitch should work on console if done right, then all movies using that technique are equally legitimate. It's not "we'd have to tweak the timings of this event to get it run on console, therefore it's not really valid, therefore we need a truly valid technique in Moons while this half-valid one is in Vault". We need CCG in Moons only if it's entertaining on its own.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Run MAME with the -d switch so it starts with the debugger, open the memory window from debugger menu, select your memory space and try editing the address you need. It may not be editable. If writes to it aren't handled by MAME, I can't change that.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The full run doesn't reset during save either, and that's not an explicit in-game feature, so it should only be mentioned if all branches have the save reset except one.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Here's our official definition of gameplay:
An in-game task or puzzle that is meant to be accomplished or solved by a human while playing the game, by sending inputs to the game and getting its reaction.
It was written to help us handle #6466: Masterjun & ais523's NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "game end glitch" in 00:00.78. A game's goal is making the player play it. If a game is entertaining, it is being played. We know it is entertaining if the player prefers it to doing nothing. Some games are more annoying than doing nothing, but the challenge compensates for that, indirectly making them entertaining. If there's no challenge in the game, then it should entertain the player with something else. But that entertainment should remain interactive, otherwise it's not a game anymore. TASVideos is the site that isn't satisfied with simply playing games. Our goal is superplay, or metagaming. We impose artificial challenges to entertain ourselves by solving them, and by watching the resulting movie. This game has no interactive challenge. It has no gameplay aside from running a few automatic events with questionable artistic value. It wasn't designed to represent the artistic taste of the creator, it just either uses placeholder images from actual Nintendo games, or shows purely technical images. Probably there is some entertainment in watching a static image like this: But after you've seen it a few times, watching it again becomes as entertaining as doing nothing. As a result of the above, simply going through all the menus fast does not hold any superplay value, because it's identical to checking out every menu item on a DVD, except there may be something of artistic value on that DVD, while this game exists for purely technical purposes and only allows you to test if your console is functional enough to pass all tests. Probably relevant: http://tasvideos.org/Nach/HistoryOfGamesAndRelevanceHere.html
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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ais523 wrote:
For what it's worth, I think the fundamental difference between reset-during-save runs and the Coin Case run is one of legitimacy. The Coin Case glitch is, IMO, obviously legitimate, and it is the fastest category which is obviously legitimate. Meanwhile, reset-during-save glitches are more debatable with respect to legitimacy, as they cannot be accessed entirely using controller input. (In a way, this defeats the main goal of a TAS, which is to beat a game entirely with controller input, no cheating or hardware modification or anything involved.) If I remember correctly, Pokémon disables the reset chord (A+B+Start+Select) during a save, thus the only way to get a save-glitched run is to cut the power to the console (e.g. using the physical power switch on a Game Boy Color). The game also outright tells you that doing this is a bad idea, implying thtat it can corrupt the game. So I don't think the "save glitch" is actually a glitch at all. It isn't something that the programmers failed to think about, and it isn't something that exploits a mistake that they made when programming. It's basically a case of using the game's power switch (not the controller) in a way that the developers were aware was possible, were aware could break the game, but were also aware that they couldn't guard against. If anything, it's an exploit of the console rather than the game (because the console gives the game no way to override the behaviour of the power switch). TASvideos has historically allowed runs that rely on oddly timed physical resets, but there's a case to be made that it shouldn't (and to me, it isn't interesting to see a game being beaten like that, because it's basically an exploit that I would expect to exist in any given game because there's only a limited amount a game can do about unless it greatly increases its SRAM usage). That argues that "fastest run without abusing physical resets" should be a legitimate category, probably more so than the fastest run that does.
Legitimacy is a valid reason to like/prefer a certain branch, but aside from personal preference it should also be entertaining with what it represents. Do you find this movie entertaining?
ais523 wrote:
For what it's worth, the category of this run should be "no reset during save", "controller input only", or something similar. What matters in terms of obsoletion is not which glitches are used, but which glitches are not used.
That wouldn't highlight its difference from the full run though. Branch labels are used to indicate what's unique about a given branch, or what explicit in-game feature it showcases (like "2 players").
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Check in MAME's memory viewer if the address you're editing is editable.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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It's not a hack, it's an unofficial port.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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That a rule for vaultable games, and if we agree that this game's quality is worthwhile, it's acceptable for Vault.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Sanqui wrote:
Personally, I just see save corruption as dull. It absolutely has technical merit, but since it showcases so little gameplay, I think there should always be space for a NSC run to stand out, even from an entertainment perspective: most viewers may not be sated after a 3 minute run and want to see more. I also don't think it's difficult for people to see the technical difference. Forget infosec, everybody knows you shouldn't turn off the power while saving! It's far more straightforward to explain than ACE, that's for sure.
I can rephrase this as "save glitch is too short, and full run is too long, so neither is really entertaining". Does CCG feel like enjoyable gameplay then? Having at least one Moons level branch for gen2 sounds like a pro.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I made 2 videos only consisting of gameplay, for each act it starts when the the player seemingly gets control, and ends when the boss dies and you get the score. Everything else was removed. It doesn't exactly match when IGT is ticking. The strangest part is that the video for Sonic ended up being longer than for Sonic and Tails. I expected IGT to correspond to gameplay better. But when setting absoletions, we're meant to figure out how actual gameplay of the 2 movies compares.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Increasing difficulty does not inherently mean new gameplay content in all cases. But those two are so closely related that we work with both. If the game is hard-coded to have an explicit, programmer-defined difficulty cap, we want that highest difficulty, and all unique content, to be reached and completed. If there's no programmer-defined difficulty cap, and it just keeps increasing until the number in memory overflows, we only require that all unique content has been completed. If a run reaches the point when the player can't proceed anymore, it's considered a kill screen and it's also a valid ending for such games.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Avoiding known significant time-saving techniques for the sake of entertainment isn't eligible for Vault. Speed/entertainment tradeoffs are somewhat ok, if they don't lose significant time. When deciding whether it's a primary goal or just a small trait, we check if that would look different enough to be published as a different branch. Speed/entertainment tradeoffs alone don't result in separate branches. Avoiding time-saving glitches often does.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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You visit Cave after Tank, not Dark Jungle. And by how long it takes, I question if that route is actually better for a TAS.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Just a reminder. The currently published CCG did obsolete the 1-hour save glitch movie originally, because it was a faster way to corrupt memory (strictly speaking, save data is also a part of accessible memory) and pull off the major skip glitch. The previous "save glitch" run didn't execute arbitrary code, but the current one does, the current CCG does, and this movie does too, and the new "save glitch" submission does too! Attack vectors are different, but the primary techniques showcased that make these runs this short are now basically the same.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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So we could have major-glitch-skip and no-major-glitch-skip branches and categorize them accordingly. [3863] Genesis Phantasy Star IV "macro glitch" by Jiseed in 20:33.04 [4184] Genesis Phantasy Star IV by janus in 1:25:29.44 That other one doesn't seem to have the tag, but it's needed for all movies where such a glitch is (now known to be) possible but hasn't been used. Better examples: [2047] SNES Chrono Trigger "save glitch" by turska & inichi in 03:28.06 [2592] SNES Chrono Trigger by keylie in 2:17:08.86
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Samsara wrote:
It really feels like interest in CCG as a whole is waning, at least in terms of people on the site.
This has been my impression as well, since it was novel at the time, and I think it was also the fastest way to beat the game back then.
Samsara wrote:
Going back to the first quote and the previous standards I brought up (SMB3 and Chrono Trigger), "game end glitch" is generally treated as a universal category despite what methods are used. Save corruption or no save corruption, both runs get to a point where they manipulate memory to reach the credits instantly. My arguments are upholding how the site has historically handled (coin) cases like these.
We have this movie class that covers different glitch types: http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html#MajorSkipGlitch And this term that talks about the same thing: http://tasvideos.org/Glossary.html#GameBreakingGlitch There is fundamental similarity in all such glitches, even if visually they may differ a lot. Someone probably needs to do a search through all movie branches on the site to tell if any other game has had "save glitch" alongside some other major skip glitch like "game end glitch". [1978] SNES Super Metroid "X-Ray glitch" by Cpadolf in 21:25.12 and [2558] SNES Super Metroid "GT code, game end glitch" by amaurea, Cpadolf, total in 14:52.88 co-existed for a short while, then [2600] SNES Super Metroid "game end glitch" by Cpadolf in 12:54.71 obsoleted both, and the GEG branch has since been reduced to [3768] SNES Super Metroid "game end glitch" by Sniq in 06:42.54 Comparable in its iconic status to this franchise, but it didn't have an exception for too long. And I must note that "GT code, game end glitch" was tremendously different from anything we've seen by then, so yes it was an exception.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I've read that and it doesn't answer my questions.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Please elaborate on your level routing, what is selected and why. Is there a way to skip Cave? Level options visible in RTA are not the same as here.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I agree that it's a good a2600 game, and after the speed boost it started looking much better than the previous part. Still not cool enough to excite me. Voting Meh.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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It can be delayed if gameplay will not be significantly different than in this run, and if it won't affect the feedback.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If gameplay will be significantly different than in this run, and if it may affect the feedback, it's better to have a new submission. File replacements are for minor tweaks.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If anyone disagrees with this, please speak up!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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You can still try to get it on mednafen that PS our core originates from. Just to be sure.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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