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Nach wrote:
I'm not talking about nearly identical game versions, I'm talking nearly identical runs. I don't need to see HappyLee's SMB in under 5 minutes published on every Nintendo console, with a frame added here or there to account for minute timing differences.
That's what I mean as well. Though logically, if you get nearly identical runs from different game versions, then you can consider the versions nearly identical. We already do this with game versions that result in nearly identical runs. Just in this case, they would complete across platforms.
Nach wrote:
In China, Snes9x/Mednafen/VBA/whatever have a huge player base. It's how they remember those games that they have legally purchased in China from the creator of the Chinese ARM-based console, and are considered the copyright holder of that creation in China.
As an aside, I'm pretty sure some of the early NES games have outsold themselves on the NES compared to whatever sales the VC is currently doing for them.
If other publishers release their IP bundled with emulators they haven't created or contributed to, we don't need to support those "releases".
Nach wrote:
And despite not having offhand examples, I don't find it legitimate to exploit bugs in the emulator if there is such a thing.
That means you consider VC illegitimate altogether.
It has an emulation layer of some sort, which is perfectly fine. That layer may enhance or otherwise tweak the games, also fine. If the game is separated from that layer, even if it loses those enhancements or tweaks, it's fine. If separation makes it unplayable, it's not fine to separate it. But guess what? If it can't be safely separated, one has to play the VC version, with all the emulator bugs, abusing them like a maniac.
If you ban abusing emulator bugs in VC only in some situations, then you're allowing them in others. In which case you're not being consistent. And from what I've been saying so far, arbitrarily so, because you decide for the company who owns the IP for all those games as well as the console, that it's not official enough for us to bother approving of whatever they release for it.
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Nach wrote:
Again, you're missing the point. I don't know how many ways I can explain this. There is a subtle difference causing the obvious problem here. This subtle difference will exist in many games, even when it's not obvious.
How many times do I need to reply to this? If subtle differences don't cause problems in gameplay, audio, or graphics, then it's essentially the same superplay as on the original system, barring differences in randomness, which we've had zero problems with in our emulators. Yes, emulators also have subtle differences compared to actual consoles. Yes, it can affect randomness and other things that may not be obvious. And we only really ban bugs in emulators that aren't present on actual hardware if the emulator bug abuse is the only way to pull off some trick, fundamentally. If it can be easily resynced to work on console, it's not an emulator bug worth rejection, just slight inaccuracy. And if there are obvious problems, exactly as described in that thread, like games not working, not completing, or distracting audiovisual problems, we already have a rule against that:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#PlayGamesThatAreEmulatedWell
So this is all in line with what we've been doing for years.
Nach wrote:
How do you define normal gameplay?
The way it works in the original mode.
Nach wrote:
Terrific. Therefore you cannot consider "verification" made with only the new system to necessarily replicate the other one. You won't know if there's a bug or not until you do proper verification.
With how I worded the rule suggestion, one doesn't have to verify things that aren't obvious glitches.
Nach wrote:
It'd be better if the file format would include some information copied from the game's header.
Is distributing parts of ROMs like that legal?
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Nach wrote:
Why not just TAS the game on the original system?
No one is suggesting to ban TASing it on the original system.
Nach wrote:
Why are we publishing nearly identical runs for the same game twice?
If they're nearly identical, we can prefer some version we agree about.
Nach wrote:
If you're just looking to exploit bugs in the emulator, then what are you even doing?
Even you admit that VC is not simply emulation. It's some kind of a virtualization+expansion layer on top of the original games, tweaked or not, developed specifically for those games, packaged as an integral game image for Wii, and officially distributed by the copyright holder.
Nach wrote:
Then why not exploit bugs in any emulator? It's how people remember the game because more people have an emulator than the original.
VC releases have huge player base, it's how they remember those games that they have legally purchased from the creator of Wii and the copyright holder of those games. If other publishers release their IP bundled with emulators they haven't created or contributed to, and the player base is small, we don't need to support those "releases".
Oh and I still see no "examples of actual problems with the future of tasvideos if we still allow people to TAS VC images as they are, without extrapolating this to anything less known and common, like bundles where we know an existing emulator has been included" in your replies.
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Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
I finally read the linked thread about problems in GBx games in later modes. They don't seem to even discuss all those "subtledifferences" only old DMG experts can spot. They talk about games that either don't run at all, or have obvious glitches in audio or graphics.
Have you been reading the same thread I have?
Sachen games are usually incompatible with anything newer than whatever was around when it was released. I have one of their mono 4 in 1s from the mid 90s which doesnt work on a GBC or up. And Beast Fighter, which is also a mono game - even though it was released in 2000 - does work on a GBC, but not a GBA.. unless you use a Game Genie, then it works maybe 1 out of 10 times. Sachen is weird.
Sounds like some randomness difference, which Alyosha mentioned earlier, so that's not obvious glitches in audio or graphics is it?
No, it's saying that the game "doesnt work on a GBC or up", does not work on a GBA, or "works maybe 1 out of 10 times".
Nach wrote:
Burai Fighter (the original monochrome one) doesn't work right on the GBA, and possibly the GBC. You die almost instantly as soon as the first boss appears.
Doesn't sound like obvious glitches in audio or graphics, does it?
No, it talks about the game not working, you die where you shouldn't be dying, and therefore you can't even complete the game.
Nach wrote:
I don't know why, but for some reason most of the replies in this thread again and again keep missing the main point. It's not about the A/V issues, those we can easily see. It's the differences we cannot easily see. If reading back from the output is being used, or something that relies on specific timings or something else, the CGB will act different from the DMG. There's ample evidence of this, the cause behind this is known. I don't get why you keep ignoring this. From the two comments I just quoted, you see it goes deeper than just what is being output.
If you can't play the game and complete it, it's not even remotely a "subtle difference we cannot easily see". It's an obvious problem.
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
[*]If glitches that are caused by newer mode can't be easily noticed and don't hinder gameplay, the newer mode is allowed for the sake of console verification.
Disagree. What does hinder even mean?
It means the bug is getting in the way of normal gameplay in some way.
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
[*]If newer mode doesn't cause any glitches at all, it's allowed.
What's considered a glitch here? Although if we know some game in particular runs identically down to the last detail on either platform, then I would agree we can run it on either platform.
Any bug in how a given mode replicates the other one
Nach wrote:
Does the file format include what system the game is supposed to be for?
It has the ROM name that the author used, but it can vary, and one has to match the hash (also contained in the header) against some list of games, and determine the intended mode from that.
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Well I get the impression that in your opinion, allowing people to TAS VC images as they are (even if the extracted game works properly) is absolutely fundamentally completely unacceptable and no one is allowed to ever question this, but I'm not seeing any examples of actual problems with the future of tasvideos if we still allow people to TAS VC images as they are, without extrapolating this to anything less known and common, like bundles where we know an existing emulator has been included.
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I think if a graphical glitch or a broken sound tone/tune is apparent for several seconds, or distributed around the run in an obvious way (say, you can't accidentally miss it if you're watching normally), and it generally sticks out, then a different, non-glitched mode is required, and console verification would need a resynced movie instead.
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I didn't enjoy it at all. The worst parts are the constant jumping sample and the slow speed. If you look closely, there's quite some stuff scattered around the levels that is meant to slow you down, but most of the time it feels like an autosroller. It gets old very quickly, and none of the gameplay differences in various levels was able to help with that impression. Voted No.
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So back to Gameboy.
I finally read the linked thread about problems in GBx games in later modes. They don't seem to even discuss all those "subtledifferences" only old DMG experts can spot. They talk about games that either don't run at all, or have obvious glitches in audio or graphics.
Some games weren't explicitly designed for GBC or GBA modes, even though those platforms try to enhance them explicitly, by having certain colors for certain games coded in the boot ROM. Previously, the rules didn't evenmean to stick to "platform the game was released for". And the latest revision doesn't address games with slightly enhanced graphics in GBC. But Mothrayas said that disallowing GB-in-GBC was an oversight, not an intention.
People that support GB-in-GBC are those who currently contribute to GBx emulator coding, to GBx console verification, and to GBx TASing. If that doesn't make the demand legitimate, I don't know what does. In addition to those, staff members also agreed (here and on discord) that unless there are obvious problems with newer modes, console verification is a good enough reason to allow those modes.
Suggested rule.
If glitches that are caused by newer mode hinder gameplay, we don't want that mode.
If glitches that are caused by newer mode are obvious to unarmed eye/ear in normal viewing conditions, we don't want that mode.
If glitches that are caused by newer mode can't be easily noticed and don't hinder gameplay, the newer mode is allowed for the sake of console verification.
If newer mode doesn't cause any glitches at all, it's allowed.
Categorization seems to need that publications of DMG games are labeled as GB, but how do we automate that in the parser?
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Screenshot suggestion?
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False alarm. Restored.
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Nach wrote:
You're opening up the door to quite a lot with this statement. Capcom has released their CPS-1 library multiple times with different versions of MAME. Their NES library with different NES emulators. I've seen Acclaim, Accolade, and Midway sell some of their SNES games bundled with Snes9x 1.43 - illegally at that, or Mednafen. I'm sure there's plenty more that I haven't seen.
We could also limit this to just VC, at least for now.
First of all, we can't even know if they used any of the emulators available on the internet, or made their own. Since randomly substituting games in the VC layer doesn't always result in a playable game, those could be either barebones emulators targeting only specific games, or not even emulators in the usual sense, but running some game programs on actual hardware. Nintendo said about VC SMB that “emulation program in question was created by Nintendo internally”, and I couldn't find evidence disproving that.
Second, I feel strongly against requiring people to fiddle with officially shipped game images. We've only ever allowed it in cases when the game would've been simply unTASable otherwise, and now outright require it unless the extracted image itself doesn't work? That breaks the authentic connection between the game image and the environment it was made for (using an existing game image as a foundation in this case, also belonging to that copyright holder). It's the same as requiring that the game gets patched. And most importantly, this "patch" may directly affect how the game was meant to be played on that platform.
Third, if we require extracting those games, we should ensure that it comes from the actual VC release, and that it was extracted cleanly, without additional edits. This will have to be verified by the judge, by reproducing the extraction process and comparing the results to what was used in the movie, or by comparing what was used in the movie to some "known good" database. Does such a database exist, like we have redump for example?
Finally, are we sure extracting games in this manner is perfectly legal?
Nach wrote:
This also gets into a gray area. Who is the publisher in various areas? Many Asian countries don't respect copyright law of other countries. In Iran or China you can walk into a store and purchase a DVD or flash drive from a respectable Iranian or Chinese company loaded up with many video games and popular emulators, and it's legal there. They're using various versions of FBA, MAME, Snes9x, mGBA, DeSmuME, Mupen64, PCSX, and more. Billions of people have access to these, and between that and those importing off of AliExpress, quite probably most people on the planet that have experienced the most popular games have done so via these emulators.
We don't want emulators to be illegally used in such bundles of course, and we don't want bootleg bundles. But we can't suspect VC releases in any of that so far.
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Here's the table I got, with framerate made to match nico's 30fps (gameplay mechanics aligned nicely):
https://files.tasvideos.org/common/SubmissionFiles/6866S/diff.png
Times in the nicovideo run where it's faster than you (level starts):
15:11.067
18:43.767
23:55.233
38:40.067
40:17.033
43:47.167
47:01.267
50:40.367
51:52.500
54:10.333
Can you elaborate why your run is slower there?
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Yeah it's always better to take your time and do everything properly (I'm totally not referencing tmnt4 here, lol).
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Nach wrote:
Why is it wrong when we publish a run which uses an emulator bug from one of our emulators?
And before you jump to answer that, bear in mind that some companies are reselling their old console games as PC games, making use of some of our emulators, bugs and all.
Should we be publishing the results of relying on emulator bugs?
I don't see a problem with TASing the officially released bundle, with or without bugs within that bundle. It's how it's been released by the publisher, so people are playing it that way and experiencing those same bugs. They could've fixed those bugs, but they haven't. Exactly how we TAS original games with bugs that devs could've fixed.
Bugs in unofficial emulators are not okay, because those don't belong to the release people are meant to be playing, on the original system without any extra layers.
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Nach wrote:
It's not that we know better. I'm sure Nintendo is aware of most of these bugs as well, and they just don't care about preserving the original game play. It's about the fact we are able to differentiate between the game itself, and other software. We know when a bug is part of the game itself or not.
Once again you're making it sound like publishing 2 different runs that look differently, on 2 different platforms, is completely impossible, unacceptable, bad for the site, and obviously wrong.
Also:
feos wrote:
Why exactly banning one of the options (the one where the resulting gameplay looks different enough) makes things better?
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I do not agree on limiting creativity on a legitimate environment the game has been officially released for. If they've introduced different bugs when preparing that release, why should we decide "no it's not a legitimate environment, don't trust the official publisher, we know better"? Why exactly banning one of the options (the one where the resulting gameplay looks different enough) makes things better?
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Nach wrote:
Yes, it's an official release. But it's an official derivative release in a buggier form. If we can extract and play it in its original platform, I think that's what we should do.
That same "unique gameplay" might even be possible in emulators that we non-Nintendo employees make, but we reject those because it's not true to the original. Sure these new Wii emulators are officially sanctioned by Nintendo's greed, but they're still not true to the original game. We're intelligent enough to differentiate a pure game release, and a game release that's really supposed to be for a different platform.
Your point is that the new release is not a part of the game anymore. Which is quite arbitrary to decide for the publisher of that game, based on which of their publications we like or not.
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If it's an extracted N64 image, we publish it as an N64. If it's a Wii image, we publish it as Wii. It remains consistent with what the game was meant for, there's no confusion and no false claims. If you run a VC release on Wii via some kind of a tasbot, it will look the same as in the TAS. Banning official releases is a much harder sell if you ask me. If it was released with glitches in its virtual machine, then that is the legitimate technique to abuse in speedruns, especially if it results in different gameplay. "We don't want unique gameplay because official release contains bugs" is the opposite of http://tasvideos.org/WelcomeToTASVideos.html#Why
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I guess it's more related to this rule then:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#UseTheCorrectVersion
Version exclusive glitches or anything else that makes the VC release special, would be okay. Identical gameplay would obviously be too similar to have both versions.
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Nach wrote:
So we plan for many games to just duplicate publish the exact same thing because we can relabel it Wii? Unless there's some significant in-game distinction, I don't see the point in us allowing this.
It's explained in the rule I linked.
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Nach wrote:
That seems awful to me. We're going to obsolete original games on their original platform because there's a poor emulator that makes it run faster?
No one is saying that they compete for the same platform. VC is Wii, and if TASed in Dolphin it's published as a Wii movie, with whatever is special about that new bundle. An extracted game though, if TASed on its original platform emulator (the rules use N64 as an example), is published as an N64 movie.
Nach wrote:
Those features, not that I know of. But SGB games have other improvements like better sound via the SNES. I think we may have had a run or two which did that, but I could be mistaken. Donkey Kong on an SGB has the game adjusting the color throughout, and AFAIK, does this better than a CGB, and has better sound, it baffles me the game was submitted using CGB.
So if the hardware and software background behind default SGB colors is essentially the same as CGB, are there SGB specific problems comparable to CGB with the same (or different) games?
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Nach wrote:
We're doing that now?
We're not banning VC relases, and I'm pretty sure we shouldn't. So the logical result is Post #472277Nach wrote:
It includes similar logic to what the CGB includes to auto color games, but it also has extensive controls to edit the palette while the game is running. SGB even allows you to draw on the screen, like your own map, or hide the boss you're fighting, or other stuff.
Have any SGB TASes on the site made use of this SGB-only functionality, current or obsoleted? I mean manually editing colors or drawing on the screen.
Nach wrote:
If the game itself was designed for SGB it usually looks good. Although we had a discussion several years back where we noticed some SGB games were designed for the television aspect ratio, and other SGB games were designed for the DMG aspect ratio. It seems some companies/studios/teams preferred things one way, and others another. So playing it on the correct system you'd get perfect squares and circles and the other would give you rectangles and ovals.
This isn't addresses in the rules, and it feels uneasy to try to guess developer's intent.
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That sounds a bit like VC releases of old consoles being TASed in Dolphin. Nintendo shipped an emulator inside the VC game bundle, and we're free to abuse bugs in that emulator, as it's part of the game now. And if we extract that game and run it on the original console emulator, it's fine too (unless it's the same as the original, non-extracted game).
Also now I have to ask if SGB also has any oddities in how it interprets things and assigns colors.
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Nach wrote:
The CGB firmware includes a list of somewhat popular DMG games to auto set their palette.
It's Nintendo who's made that boot ROM, right? Sounds like they officially support those games in the "simple color mode", even if it's not 100% bugless.
Nach wrote:
In some games though, if you don't manually select anything, it will indeed not look sensible. And as I said before, since it auto colors sprites different from background, in games where it was intended to blend together, that blend is now broken.
Does this happen with explicitly supported GB games too?
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
For these reasons, I'd like to pick this chance to reiterate my proposal: since the GBinGBC mode may make some games potentially uglier to look than GB, I think it should be allowed only for Moons & Stars.
I just think it doesn't make anything simpler or better.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
