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Slowking wrote:
But I still think that is a weird decision to slap the fastest completion with extra labels. The fastest completion should always be any% (or how it is here, no label) and everything else should have qualifying labels why it is deliberatly slower than the fastest run.
Not just because most communities handle it that way (although why you need to do it differently than everybody else I don't know). But also for the sake of consistency. If somebody wants to obsolete Grunz's and Bloob' run, how should they know what they are allowed to do? They clearly can't use the fastest route. That would make it "game end glitch". What can they actually do to obsolete that run in a nameless, not clearly defined category?
Can you make clear rules what would obsolete Grunz's and Bloob's run and if so why not give it a label instead of giving one to the fastest run?
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It looks like [2671] NES Mario Bros. (Classic Serie) "2 players" by Spikestuff in 09:09.64 was generally preferred, in posts, votes, and ratings. I think that other movie is more complete, and I don't see the difference that would make the 2 versions look like obviously 2 different games. My personal impression is that the Classic Serie version should be the only version published, but we can instead just shift this one to Vault as fastest completion. Both are marked with the flag flag, but I think it's wrong, as it's not 2 different games or modes, just branch level variations.
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Can't you try to incorporate them and resync the rest? It doesn't look like the bosses are completely chaotic.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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That's my plan, yes.
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The problem is I don't actually want to TAS the whole game. My tests were still rather relaxed and sloppy, and I haven't tried other levels because they don't look slow. If reimplemented and resynced, I expect at least 800 frames of improvement, because all my timesaves combined were 953 frames. I feel it's significant, and ignoring such a visible potential improvement would be wrong.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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darkid wrote:
It does have a linux port, but it's not working nicely with libTAS. I checked the forums, and people are saying that Unity games mostly aren't supported (I suspect due to the complexity of the engine). I'm happy to keep poking at it, but it might be a lot of work to get this started.
Please ask Keylie directly, maybe he finds a way to make your game work.
DreamYao wrote:
If "Rush'n Attack" has pacifism, will it be accepted? I'd like to try to make it if I can
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I completely missed your ninja edit.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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This game seems to have a linux port, does it work in libTAS?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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If this setup unlocks something unique, it will be allowed eventually. However, I can't guarantee that including other games into the same movie will be considered vaultable full completion. My instant reaction is that it's not worth the insanity and simply doing stuff within the same one game is your best bet. While TASing two different games that are meant to be played together, I don't think we'd allow arbitrary combinations of goals. The same goal in both games would be probably worth considering. Also if an easter egg is so obscure, it doesn't sound like the game is explicitly meant to belong to another game's gameplay?
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How would one even sync the 2 movies running on 2 different emulators? I think the link cable setup only works because it's the same emu with one movie, running 2 games.
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If it's emulated and officially endorsed by the game developer/publisher, we should allow it in TASes. But I can imagine that making a TAS on 2 different consoles at once would be as complicated as judging such a thing. It looks like we only need this setup as a verification movie?
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They'd still be able to just write and read files from disk, similar to how save files are usually handled? It this process inherently interactive and parallel on a real device?
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Does it mean that actually transferring them across different devices can also be emulated, technically?
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Samsara wrote:
The closest analogue is the zipless any% run, and due to the soul collection, the routing, fighting and entertainment are still very different between the two runs.
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What about
feos wrote:
So as of right now, I don't think we need any extra rules that ban VC TASing in any form. All we might want to do is saying that if TASing the VC bundle results in similar gameplay as without it, we prefer without it, for the sake of originality. If TASing the VC bundle showcases gameplay as different from original as we require for Moons branches, be that features or glitches, we publish that separately. Same for differences that count as separate game modes (vaultable).
If some other company ever develops a comparable virtualization+enhancement layer from scratch, alloys it together with their previous game, and releases it as a uniform bundle for a certain console, similar to all other releases for that console, we can extrapolate this approach over and include that system in the VC rule.
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Poke Ilari on #lsnes irc.
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I don't see significant difference between the way you clip for a bit and the way you clip for the whole level. So it looks like a similar OOB technique, which would look out of place in a run that avoids OOB.
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
We also already allow different hardware revisions, for example the different PSX BIOS versions, for which in some aspects may feature even deeper differences than GB vs GBC. You insist that GB games haven't been designed for the GBC platform, but that also applies for any other platform game that was developed before introducing hardware revisions. Is there any reason why we should treat the Game Boy differently?
I generally feel the same, I don't see the fundamental difference between newer game modes and hardware revisions. Whatever we decide should benefit the TASers and the community, and the community have agreed with my suggestions. Our job is boiling down the logistical part of the rules to something we could use in the future, without contradicting existing rules. And I'm not seeing fundamental contradictions with the current rules either.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
It's not just for the sake of console verification. In my opinion, GB-in-GBC should be also considered as a stylistic choice for improving aesthetic of a movie, as well as be allowed to taking advantage of hardware differences that may allow for a more optimized movie (apart from the BIOS screen duration difference).
If there are no glitches at all caused by the newer mode, then it's an artistic choice. If there are slight but noticeable glitches, we want them to be justified.
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Nach wrote:
Everyone familiar with the situation finds it acceptable and valid way to play and consider it to be a reliable method for TASing purposes.
That definition has two fundamental problems:
Subjectivity. If I'm familiar with situations that are covered by our movie rules, and I stop considering some of them valid and acceptable, then the rule itself is not legitimate anymore?
Emergence. The more people you inform about the situation, the more variety of opinions you get. Those opinions may include notions that completely disprove your initial beliefs, leading to quality changes in the whole situation, which will then need to be reevaluated, and different questions will need to be asked. You may also opt to stick to just those few people that agree with you, but then that's called echo chamber.
Due to the above, I find this definition to be impossible: to use and rely on, and to even take seriously.
Nach wrote:
As you know, we often clarify how to handle new situations on the basis of how we handled previous situations. So how would you define our allowance of VC in such a way that it doesn't open the door to anything that may come along later?
You probably also know that over the years, the rules whose development I've been involved in, I've been trying to define in the most future-proof way we can pull off. And from having had tons of brainstorming sessions with staff members, I can say that 100% future-proof rules are impossible. We can't predict 100% of everything that happens in the future, and even if we could, accounting for it all would make the rules infinitely long, and coming up with perfect wording would also require infinite time. No one has resources for that at their disposal. So we limit this to what covers the most probable situations, however exotic they may be.
So as of right now, I don't think we need any extra rules that ban VC TASing in any form. All we might want to do is saying that if TASing the VC bundle results in similar gameplay as without it, we prefer without it, for the sake of originality. If TASing the VC bundle showcases gameplay as different from original as we require for Moons branches, be that features or glitches, we publish that separately. Some for differences that count as separate game modes (vaultable).
If some other company ever develops a comparable virtualization+enhancement layer from scratch, alloys it together with their previous game, and releases it as a uniform bundle for a certain console, similar to all other releases for that console, we can extrapolate this approach over and include that system in the VC rule.
Nach wrote:
That's because the platform itself is inconsistent.
Arbitrary purism may describe any platform as inconsistent.
Nach wrote:
You want to block DMG games on CGB when there's some noticeable issues, which I agree with. It's a combination Nintendo wants to support, but their success rate was not perfect. Same for VC, they want to support all these games they're bringing over, but their primary focus here is the $, not whether the game runs perfectly well or not. They're not extensively testing them like they would a brand new game. If there's AV issues in VC that aren't exhibited on the original platform, why should we support it?
Because I consider the VC layer a part of the game. The benefit being that we showcase two different things, and they have different superplay, not limiting creativity that can be applied to that newer platform, because that creativity would be unique: you can't replicate some of that stuff on just the original or extracted game. The original movie isn't hurt, and the movie on the extracted game isn't hurt.
With GBx, the new mode is not a part of the game that you buy from the publisher, and the enhancements aren't either, so the incompatibility bugs aren't inherent to the game image.
Nach wrote:
I spoke to a friend of mine over the weekend who is more familiar with some of these differences, and he told me the flickering in DMG Zelda on a CGB I mentioned earlier is due to the fact the game was made understanding the ghosting effects of the poor quality screen the DMG has. The CGB having a better screen without these ghosting effects has a flicker in several places. SGB or emulators with older televisions or computer screens had ghosting effects and also looked great, but playing them on a new higher quality screen has flickering issues unless you turn on some kind of frame blending or motion blur. The Zelda DX version fixed this by redoing some of the visual effects the game uses, and when necessary, draws these effects on more frames so it doesn't require the screen to exhibit ghosting issues to look right.
Although this differs to the situation when we talk about the randomness being different, and thus the enemies act differently, or somehow instantly kill you and become unbeatable. The game was made with a particular design in mind, and was tested that way.
We don't account for those "nuances" in how the games used to look when played on console. We don't apply NTSC artifacts to your video, we don't simulate luminophore glow, we don't put scanlines in our encodes. So in any encode of GB Zelda, you will see the same flickering when watching on your computer, regardless of the mode.
Nach wrote:
Most of the push back I've been getting on this thread appears to be about not understanding the situation. Why should I accept a differing viewpoint when I know the other viewpoint is missing information which I have?
How many people you want to come in and say "I'm fine with all those subtle differences" to finally understand that information you bring up is not being missed?
Nach wrote:
I have no problem where we say look we're using an emulator, it may have some differences from the original, but we try to avoid that.
I do have a problem where we say, nope it's perfect, because we compared it to something which is another emulator.
No one is saying GBx modes are perfect though. We're saying they're good enough, for the most part.
Nach wrote:
I agree with this. However, not all our judges are necessarily familiar with the game in the original mode to know if something even looks suspicious or not.
If it doesn't look suspicious for the judge who is looking closely, and for the audience who often knows the game, then it's not a significant difference.
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Nach wrote:
This is now taking my statement out of the original context. If you now deem the later emulated release as valid, you open it up to bugs and other kinds of new releases. The new releases we're talking about here isn't just the game, but all sorts of software added to the game. The point I was making is that we either have the exact same game (use the original), or it's not the same (is it then legitimate?).
I'm going to need your exhaustive definition of the word "legitimate", because it's becoming impossible to discuss anything without having the same questions asked over and over. You define it once and for all, and in the future I'll only refer to that definition when discussing anything "legitimate" with you.
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
If other publishers release their IP bundled with emulators they haven't created or contributed to, we don't need to support those "releases".
Why not? If a company legally releases their IP bundled with an emulator, why shouldn't we support the release? What difference does it make their level of involvement?
VC is quite clearly unique compared to all those bundles. Limiting a unique rule to the unique situation means you don't need to extrapolate anymore (hooray).
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
If the game is separated from that layer, even if it loses those enhancements or tweaks, it's fine.
I find this debatable.
You disagree with your own ruling?
Nach wrote:
My criteria is simple:
Is it the original game (can easily be verified by comparison of the files) - play on original.
Is it close to the original game which also works on the original console (differences might be a harder gameplay mode or something, can check to see if it works on original) - play on original.
Game has enhanced features only present on VC - play on VC.
If it's the original game, but VC still somehow enhances it on the VC - play on either.
Close to original game, works on original console, and VC enhances it - play on VC.
Except none of that helps with prejudice/inconsistency towards the platform itself.
Nach wrote:
I don't think we need to consider every kind of release and combination legitimate or the correct version to play. You yourself agreed which should disregard potential use cases if it causes A/V bugs.
VC games were explicitly re-released with this extra layer, I don't see any difference between them and non-VC games officially released for Wii. The point about AV bugs was about GB games that weren't explicitly re-released for newer modes, instead the console itself was tweaked to support them.
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Nach wrote:
Just because you don't easily see the issue doesn't mean it's essentially the same. If enemy patterns change, then you're not playing exactly the same game.
I wouldn't say we've had zero problems in our emulators, from working on emulators I know we've had emulators where the enemy in the game acts differently than on an actual console.
Why exactly are you not arguing for absolute purism regarding emulator accuracy though? If an enemy behaves differently, then you're not verifying how it works on console, so it's not the same game anymore. Consistency please.
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
So this is all in line with what we've been doing for years.
Except it isn't, because suddenly I'm hearing the DMG is being redefined as the CGB or AGB, and that verification on those later consoles is considered true verification. You're not longer comparing emulator with a console, but comparing an emulator with some other console which does pseudo-emulation.
What is being verified is how a game runs in GBC and then on console. If the differences between GB and GBC for a given game are subtle, then running it on actual GB would still fundamentally work after some resync. If the difference is significant, we prefer the original thing of course.
Nach wrote:
From my perspective, you have all absolutely lost your minds.
I won't tell you what people think about your posts from their perspective.
Nach wrote:
And how do you know that if you're verifying it against a non-original mode?
So now I see a run, and I suspect something, and it would force one to have to console verify it?
You ask the author to prove that whatever looks suspicious is also there in the original mode. If it's not there, and the difference is significant, reject.
Nach wrote:
If you're copying a single value describing something it should be legal.
Which value do we need here?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
