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DrD2k9 wrote:
Won't whether or not a movie is published still ultimately be determined by the judge (even if allowing for more flexibility based on viewer feedback from the forum/poll)?
Sure.
DrD2k9 wrote:
I like your idea of condensing all 3 current polls (workbench yes/no/meh, post publication entertainment rating, and post publication tech rating) into a single rating. However, given that "Should this be Published?" doesn't really ask for a rating that fits on a variable scale; perhaps we could instead present viewers of workbench movies with a simple poll that just asks to "Rate This Movie" on the 0-10 rating scale?
Regardless of the poll question another consideration from a rating standpoint would be a 1-5 scale as that is another format many (if not most) users would be familiar with for rating things.
Maybe there's a better way to word the poll question. The main thing is it should be a unified thing.
For example, I got an idea about assigning meaning to entertainment based rating options:
0 - watching this makes me suffer
[...]
10 - this is one of my favorite movies on the site
Though this wouldn't address what record value the audience sees in an objective/internal goal/record movie. I think if we agree on principle, wording can be figured out later, so we don't cook a hare before catching him.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Bigbass wrote:
So say there was an any% submission, that was acceptable and had feedback that showed it was a very enjoyable movie, would there be any flags available to recognize that it had high entertainment value?
Since entertainment is also a scale, there's no sensible borderline for "okay now we certainly need to add this flag". What we do with this info in terms of site code depends on what the viewer wants with relation to this info.
Bigbass wrote:
Wait, I think I'm a bit lost, which independent concepts are you referring to?
Internal goals that the games explicitly represent/track and player imposed restrictions that don't relate to in-game concepts. I linked the text from Publisher Guidelines that describes this.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Regarding per-game rules.
We already have game based navigation, it's just not fully developed yet. There could be a tab that contains rules relevant to a specific game, and tags that describe which guidelines they are based on. And then there'd be a page listing those guidelines with a way to list all the relevant games/movies. Technically similar to the current movie class system. That would make it easy to find precedents and catalog judgment reasons better.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Bigbass wrote:
Is #1 saying that categories like any% wouldn't have any chance of having the Moons flag?
Since it wouldn't be tiers anymore, but 2 independent concepts, there's no negative connotations in "not having player imposed goals".
Bigbass wrote:
feos wrote:
4. Turn submission polls into a 0-10 scale
5. Change the poll question back to "Should this be published?"
I like the idea of #4, but does a scale really fit the question "Should this be published?" As in, would people be likely to primarily use 0 and 10 in place of no and yes? Additionally, if these results were to carry over as publication ratings, does that question also fit with what ratings are supposed to represent?
Perhaps more importantly, would judges prefer having a "Should this be published?" metric or an entertainment/enjoyment metric (like we have now, but as a scale)?
I forgot to mention that I also want technical an entertainment rating to be combined somehow, so it's one scale for submissions and a similar scale for publications, not 3 scales (submission's yes/no/meh, publication's technical 0-10, publication's entertainment 0-10).
The scale would represent how strongly you feel in either direction. For low entertainment games, the poll is almost irrelevant, and there's little to no feedback needed to determine if we want another record branch, because it's not allowed at all. If we want branch limit for records to be less strict, we need viewers' opinions, and we need a poll to represent them better.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Since I constantly ponder important tasvideos related puzzles offline, here's the system proposal I just came up with.
Turn Moons into a flag. Assign it to all external goals/player imposed restrictions/concepts that don't explicitly and officially exist in the game. Require them to meet acceptability reasons based on entertainment. As long as a side goal branch meets them, accept. Obsolete a different branch if needed.
If we're not sure whether we want it or not, reject.
If it contradicts some guidelines but we agree that we need it to be an exception because it's so impressive, accept. Probably that's when the Demo flag should come in.
Remove Vault as a tier with an icon, and turn it into a default movie collection. Movies without player imposed restrictions go there. Keep accepting new branches until rejectability reasons based on record value are met. Obsolete a different branch if needed.
If we agree that this is too many branches now, reject.
Turn Stars into a flag and assign it based on some automated rules. We have a concept of franchises in the code, so it can be arranged.
Turn submission polls into a 0-10 scale and carry over poll results to publications. That way the crowd that votes on submissions is no longer completely different from the crowd that rates publications.
Change the poll question back to "Should this be published?" and treat poll results according to presence of external goals, which is finally a clear borderline.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Playaround can't go to Vault.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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We learned about it from the manual.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The concept of "objective goal" is actually already used on the site, in branch labeling.
Publisher Guidelines wrote:
The point of branches is to highlight specific goals that runs may conform to. These goals are highlighted, because they introduce gameplay differences into TASes that are significant enough to be published as separate branches. Two kinds of goals exist:
Internal condition - something the game directly and unambiguously offers as an optional component of play which significantly affects what is seen from the game (warp usage, player amount, character choice).
External condition - something the players limit themselves to (exact completion percent, pacifist, certain glitch set).
In this post by Warp, those 2 concepts are called "goals" and "restrictions".
The proposal I had in mind is that we have more branches allowed for Vault (or whatever it ends up becoming) based on objective/internal goals, and then all the subjective/external restrictions intended for Moons would need to be entertaining to be published.
The good thing about objective/internal goals is that they have objective limit for every game. It's not like allowing them all would automatically mean that we need to accept infinite amount of arbitrarily esoteric branches.
Sure the number could be really high if there's a variety of options and their types, which leads to insanely high number of all possible permutations for compound goals. For example, all characters and their combinations for 1P, 2P, 3P, 4P, warps, warpless, hard, normal, easy, etc - that would be crazy to allow it all.
Yet, as long as it's not limited to just "fastest combination of all options" (the thing we call any%), it may become a nightmare to determine the borderline of acceptability. The borderline when "now it's actually too many branches".
"Too restrictive" is what we have now. It's painful to handle in way too many situations, and limits TASers in creativity. It depends on whatever the current judges agreed about, which may change over time and with different judges.
"Too loose" on the other hand results in indefinite amount of branches, even if it's tied to something objective. It may disappoint people because they feel it doesn't "make sense" to publish that many.
So maybe instead of defining hard rules for fine borderlines, we should instead come up with generalized guidelines for blurred borderlines? After all, the actual borderline between clear record and entertaining side goal is never this
but something closer to this
For the extremes, if it's a super clear record, we don't need it to be entertaining (game end glitch), and if it's super entertaining, we don't care about its record value (playarounds). But in the middle, there's some overlap of uncertainty (dunno how to draw it), when we're not sure about acceptace on either ground. And those are the worst to deal with. Which kinda means, if we invent a way to handle this middle ground gracefully, the system will be more satisfying and robust.
Indeed it looks like we just want to go back to pre-tier system, because those aren't even layers anymore, just 2 separate entities that sometimes have overlap. But what we need to adjust compared to old TASVideos is lowering the entertainment cutoff and increasing the branch count cap.
This is probably a nice reason to try switching from global and absolute rules to per-game rules? Per-game rules decided by judges and the TASers and the audience? Per-game rules that would reflect what makes sense for a given game?
At this point it's obvious that we can't come up with rules that work for all games. I've been doing this for years, together with admins and judges, and there's some progress. But it's at the cost of Movie Rules constantly expanding, making it impossible to remember them all for judges and to comprehend them all for TASers. And it gets gradually harder to adjust, because by becoming more complex, the system becomes more fragile. More aspects have to be considered every time, more mental resources are required to wrap your head around it. And finding the right balance between technicality and entertainment also becomes more difficult as fundamentally new situations pop up. And we can never be sure we have enough outlook and expertise to handle everything in a future-proof way.
So I'm starting to think that asking ourselves "What should be fine to accept?" is a question impossible to answer in a satisfiable way. And making rules out of it won't ever be an enjoyable endeavor.
Coming up with generalized guidelines based on "What we all agree we should keep rejecting?" is a much more helpful solution, that could then be applied on a per-game basis depending on what a given game has to offer.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
I did some work studying the RNG of this game and how it affected the pipe room wait.
[...]
tl;dr the shortest wait possible is 2617, which this TAS happens to get. It is not possible to my knowledge to shorten the wait.
Awesome job!
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
I am curious if anyone else feels positive towards this movie, or the reasons otherwise, and if it should belong in the Vault like the currently published movie.
I wasn't entertained, because platforming is slow paced and feels basic. There's nothing surprising in it if you just watch. Voted No.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Wow this was brilliant! So many new techniques, obviously much tougher optimization, intense weapon usage makes this feel daring and aggressive. Running away from bosses was my favorite! Voted Yes.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I believe the other save glitch TASes (which are essentially game end glitch TASes) (and maybe the Coin Case TAS too for consistency?) should have their branches renamed to "game end glitch", with the non-geg save glitch TASes staying as "save glitch".
While I agree that branch label wording is not obviously clear in this case, "X glitch" always means major skip glitch, and when save corruption is the primary technique used for it, there's no easy way to define the difference between two movies that use save-corruption-major-skip-glitch.
It's non-trivial to understand the difference between those two and also ACE usage even if you know Pokemon games decently well in terms of gameplay. I'm still unsure if this movie skips the final boss or not, and I haven't asked because I was busy trying to understand all the other aspects. If you have to be a Pokemon expert and a code expert to understand the difference, then technicality shadows entertainment.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Does it still corrupt RAM?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Almost as annoying to see and hear as the any% branch, barring the death abuse. Voting No.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Wow I didn't remember how bad this game felt. Sound effects and music are constantly out of tune, 20fps movement makes constant scrolling painful to watch, gameplay is really basic aside from some later levels, repeated dying is anti-climactic. If this is what technically impressive A2600 games look like, I think that console didn't age well at all. Voted No.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Indeed, a whole bunch of discussion is happening on Discord lately. But I feel we're not advertising it well enough in the Guidelines. I'll add the link now. Added.
Also if it was an actual WIP movie, ideally uploaded to userfiles and linked somewhere on the forum/wiki, it'd be a significant flaw to miss that and lose time to it. For a chat-only glitch demo, I think it's understandable to miss.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I can say that CasualPokePlayer's assessment looks correct regarding not reaching the game end, which it has.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Not sure. The routing is better except for the second-to-last level which is a few frames longer in this movie. So I tried to randomly tweak inputs and improved it by 29 frames by the start of the cutscene:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/72095754353028060
Midlevel crap turned 7-frame improvement on level 1 into 2-frame:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/72095741720032955
Some level in the middle is 18 frames shorter:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/72095753184632048
While I see that midlevel stuff advances at random pace depending on random input, I still improved 3 out of 3 that I tried to randomly tweak. I kinda suspect every level is like this.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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A peaceful resolution is possible if both parties are ready to discuss the problem, present their vision of it, accept each others' vision of it, and see what's still common and more important than sticking to their own visions. You can't resolve a conflict without some kind of a compromise. And you can't come to a compromise that would satisfy both sides without having a genuine discussion.
We tried to turn this into a productive discussion several times. We explained our motives, we admitted what we could have done wrong, we presented our values, we cared. But if the same doesn't come from the other side, there's no way to solve this.
It's not about us fighting back. It's about finding something more important than fighting. I think when you moderate a community, you need to know how to de-escalate problematic situations. If you don't, then you get constant fights among users.
And for people who don't want to participate in any fights, there's still a possibility that someone attacks their work or their character. We do not want them to be on their own in such situations. We also don't want to take sides. We want to be wise, and we want people to be wise. A wrote a page about this:
http://tasvideos.org/Feos/SoftSkills.htmlneo_omegon wrote:
As the New Testament says, "Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." Why don't you practice?
Not everyone on this site is into the New Testament, and they don't have to be! We don't want to preach some values by asking people to act in a certain way. We want to preach values by showing how they practically solve problems and remain relevant in the modern day.
My personal values are not out of tradition or conservatism. My personal values are meant to make people happier than they were. That requires understanding what they are coming from, regardless of their values. If I can be helpful to them regardless of their political views, religion, tastes, etc, then my values are met. Does this instantly boil down to a certain religion or political views? Do I look like a traditional democrat, republican, jew, buddhist, atheist, christian, marxist, liberal, libertarian? I don't have to!
This is important because creativity requires certain conditions. Inspiration requires a certain mood. If we can't help people keep that mood, we're a bad place for creativity and inspiration. I have another page on the matter:
http://tasvideos.org/TasingGuide/TASArt.html
If our users are getting bullied, they can't focus on creating art. And xipo did attack tasers. We don't want tasers to fight. We want them to co-operate. But we don't want them to force themselves to co-operate with someone they don't enjoy working with. If joy of friendly co-operation is not there anymore, and joy of friendly competition is not there anymore either, there's no more joy to have in tasing.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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It's even v87 currently.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
but something closer to this
For the extremes, if it's a super clear record, we don't need it to be entertaining (game end glitch), and if it's super entertaining, we don't care about its record value (playarounds). But in the middle, there's some overlap of uncertainty (dunno how to draw it), when we're not sure about acceptace on either ground. And those are the worst to deal with. Which kinda means, if we invent a way to handle this middle ground gracefully, the system will be more satisfying and robust.
