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I was referring to his fear of games being sped up. Dendy does the opposite. But yeah, to be consistent, one would need to allow all 3 regions to the user, and the user might pick NTSC for PAL games. Not that it's so much of a problem it must be solved the hardcode way :D
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Changes nothing. If I check "Wait for subprocess creation", it does run, but doesn't playback the movie. Need the log?
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The Japanese 1.00 version of this game, エリィのアクション, matches the original hash for this movie, but crashes for me before running under hourglass. Can anyone else try running this version, instead of U?
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Can you upload it to Mediafire or something like that?
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adelikat wrote:
As for a UI way, we could do that for an upcoming release, the reason I didn't want that until now, is because I don't like the idea of people being able to run PAL games in NTSC mode (and more precisely I"m tired of people submitting supposed SMB records via this technique!)
It's the opposite. PAL games in NTSC become faster, NTSC games in Dendy become slower (50 fps).
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Awesome, voted yes.
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To get a better idea of what kind of impact this would have, I decided to look at a number of NES games and see which access uninitialized RAM.
I modified Bizhawk slightly to monitor the RAM usage. If the game read from a RAM address before it has written to it, I recorded that. I also recorded what addresses were written to.
I took a list of NES games that the site has movies for, ran them for 600 frames each in that modified Bizhawk, and then outputted the data collected. I then turned the data into images to make it easier to digest the information.
Here is the image set (warning: large/long images)
Each 8x8 pixel block represents a RAM address, starting at 0x0000 at the top left, and ending at 0x07FF at the bottom right. The colors mean the following:
Black - RAM was not read from or written to (still uninitialized)
Green - RAM was written to first
Red - RAM was read from before it was initialized, and still hasn't been written to (still uninitialized)
Orange - RAM was read from before it was initialized, but has since been written to
Keep in mind that this data is from only 600 frames of the game, and with no input. The results may change if input is given or the analysis is run for longer.
You can tell from the images that a large number of games access uninitialized memory, but I'm not sure what they are doing with it. As other people have said, some games start up in a different way depending on the initial state of the RAM. Being able to control this initial state might be beneficial to movie authors, but I'll leave that up to other users who know more about each game to determine. This data was simply to get an idea of how many games might be impacted by this new policy.
Also, if anyone is interested in seeing my changes to Bizhawk or the raw data I made the pictures from I'll be happy to post it.
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Oh, yeah, spotted that one out when watching first time.
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Warp wrote:
I fail to see how setting RAM values even before the game has started constitutes speedrunning.
The difference between setting RAM values because they theoretically might be like that by chance, and setting them explicitly via external means while the game is running, is artificial at best. One is not any more "speedrunning" than the other, not even if we were to loosen up the definition and allow achieving some goal (other than getting to the end of the game) as fast as possible.
I would go so far as to say that "the console RAM must be set to all zeros (or whatever) before starting the run" is on par with "the run must start from powerup". (And, if it were up to me, also "resetting is not allowed.")
At least I want to see the game played with superhuman accuracy. Why would I want to see a different program being run?
You know what? It's way too similar to the attitude regular gamers sometimes have towards TASing. "Why overcome human skills in the first place? It's only interesting to see how a real human can handle that!" "Why overcome human skills to this exact extent? You must stick to only certain kinds of entertainment!"
And now it's this. "Okay, you are allowed to overcome certain aspects of human skills. But not that much, you intriguer!"
Warp, the ground that is now being discovered is expanding the very "overcome human skills to play a game" concept. If we are physically able to do trick A with assist of our tools (omnideveloped), then it is always exciting to try trick B, that we only could think of (arbitrary code on console), and then looking for some trick C that is not even known, but will open insane possibilities - that's what makes us evolve as a community!
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I think what exists is an empty object. You assign the value to it by saving something.
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adelikat wrote:
feos wrote:
That's where you will need test ROMs and quite some stats.
Well, that essentially achieves the same results as Derakon is suggesting. Because it has to be likely enough that a human could verify it to be possible or else we will never be able to verify it being possible.
It's not the same. He wants a proof it is frequent enough. I want a documentation that will directly help improving emulators in the needed way, and tell people it is possible at all (as in, even 1 chance in 123456 million years is possible "at all"). So stats are only needed to prove it to people so that we could start actually abusing the hell it of it with no more proofs. What hegyak says.
To Derakon:
If it expands the "laboratory" too much for you, what about setting such "over the line TAS content" in the Demo tier? It is unique, no one did it before, it requires deep programming knowledge, it is interesting what will it end up with - all what people do demos for!
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Derakon wrote:
For example, we could say that if you need to have more than 32 bits have precise values, then your movie is too demanding. After all, assuming random bit states that's a 1 in 4 billion chance -- if it took you 1 second to attempt each run, you'd be running, on average, for 136 years before you'd get a version that synced.
On the other hand, a run that only required 8 bits to be specific values would need, on average, 256 attempts, which isn't unreasonable.
To introduce something into TASing, we don't need to prove that something is likely enough to happen. We only need to prove it is possible at all. That's where you will need test ROMs and quite some stats.
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Read the post.
We can already start from presetting some mapper register to whatever value the devs did not care about and publishing it.
But to start abusing uninitialized RAM officially, we will need to make some real hardware tests with test ROMs written to flash cards. So that the very first values that are read from RAM are displayed on the screen as a table, allowing to scroll through it all and document (dump somehow?) For several copies of each console we TAS we need to run these tests to collect scientifically reliable stats. Then we can change the "default" RAM pattern to something verified by real life. That is for movies that don't rely on dirty RAM. And then we would allow to set the values arbitrarily, with a special tag in pubs.
So introducing some breaking and brand new concept only requires good statistical base and emulation support.
EDIT:
There is an omnipresent point of view that these tricks kill the spirit of tool-assisted speedrunning. Well, they don't kill anything as long as it is still here, public and available. But these features open a great room for that Demo tier thing. Will anyone consider its need when it's not playing the game, but fucking around with it? I can't pick an easier word when I hear about total control runs and uninitialized RAM potential.
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Before I read the post:
We should expand our TAS playground by all that is achievable in real life. It would require tricky emulation features (keeping the CD-drive open and whatnot), but as long as it happens, it is justified. If games fail to initialize something, it's their fault.
WST wrote:
However, I think that runs which abuse the initial state that differs from the emulator’s default, should not obsolete the «normal» ones when publishing.
They will have to, if the low-glitch versions are not entertaining.
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Personman wrote:
feos wrote:
It does skip more than half of the game at once. It in no way near the any% concept either. The game itself is just fucked up, so you don't even need to corrupt memory to break it to death and abuse.
This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. By this logic, the mario64 0-star run isn't an any% run. There are plenty of Vault examples too; that rpg that wins on the first frame comes to mind.
The entire point of any% is to complete the game as fast as possible. If we can skip 99% of the game, we absolutely should. Trying to separate it from memory corruption is one thing (that I personally don't agree with, and which certainly doesn't apply here), but trying to define a percentage of the intended game that must be completed is just crazy.
I think you missed the part where I said that no one bothers. Calling something ridiculous doesn't help, you know. Spawning a serious discussion about what you are interested in, does help though.
adelikat wrote:
feos wrote:
But currently it is just not the case. So I'm speaking in consistency with the current categorization.
That's fine, except that you must understand that the vault wording isn't based on that. Whether that is an error is up for debate, but the meaning of "any%" means fastest completion time at all costs.
I must not need to guess what a word means to someone. I look at the page, I read any%, I look at the published movies, any% is skipped from the branch name, glitched isn't. any% != glitched by what I see on the site.
Radiant wrote:
feos wrote:
I have no problems with calling "glitched" runs "any%" and the current "any%" ones that have the faster glitched versions something else, as long as the low-glitch versions are preserved if their entertainment value deserves separate publication.
I believe this is key, and this is also why the vault only allows Any% and 100% runs: "low-glitch versions are preserved for their entertainment value". They are: that's what moon tier is for. If a run shows off more of the game by not clipping through walls, not going out of bounds, and avoiding warp zones, then the run is judged on entertainment and eligible for moon tier if people like it.
But vault tier and any% are about reaching the end of the game using any and all tricks in the book, and regardless of how garbled ridiculous this looks in the video. And because of this, runs that exploit some glitch obsolete runs that don't use that glitch; as far as I've seen this is consistently applied.
That doesn't apply to runs who corrupt memory to execute an arbitrary program, but those are pretty rare. It does apply to any other glitch, because we can't objectively define a difference between a "high glitch" vs a "low glitch" run.
Great point. If something is once again adjusted at the Vault page, this run is even perfectly vaultable to obsolete the current one. Switching to the savestate discussion now.
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Not beating (or matching) all know records was the reason. If someone makes his won run and matches the time per room, it will be accepted.
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adelikat wrote:
Feos, you seem flat out wrong about something, or I am misunderstanding your posts. Vault rules say the categories are any% and 100%. The definition of any% in this case is THE FASTEST POSSIBLE COMPLETION TIME. Unfortunately, I have allowed the site to blur that simple definition of any% by having a "glitched" category that is faster than a "any%" category in some cases. I completely disagree with this categorization though. any% should be the fastest movie, then we should have a better naming of movies that forgo major skips/glitches.
The vault absolutely prefers the faster movie, not a (more ambiguous) movie that fails to do a time saving glitch.
For now it's your own opinion. I have no problems with calling "glitched" runs "any%" and the current "any%" ones that have the faster glitched versions something else, as long as the low-glitch versions are preserved if their entertainment value deserves separate publication. But currently it is just not the case. So I'm speaking in consistency with the current categorization.
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Suggestion taken. SoR2 now has more votes, but the ones from SoR3 are higher. Any thoughts which one deserves it more?
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Radiant wrote:
That's an interesting distinction; it does make sense but it would require some cleaning up, because as near as I can tell the category tag "heavy glitch abuse" and the label "glitched" in a run's title are used interchangeably, and for both of these.
As I said, no one really cares. It is mostly decided case by case.
Radiant wrote:
In the meantime, this Cheetahmen run clearly falls in the former category; it doesn't corrupt memory the way these other movies (or the famous Pokemon Pi Dance) do.
It does skip more than half of the game at once. It in no way near the any% concept either. The game itself is just fucked up, so you don't even need to corrupt memory to break it to death and abuse.
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Radiant wrote:
feos wrote:
Can someone list the runs that skip half of the game at once and are still any%? I only can remember any%'s that skip some levels from the middle to the next level start. And glitched runs either skip from the middle of the game to its end, or break the gameplay hard enough to deserve a glitched category.
There are several "glitched" runs in the vault, such as Chrono Trigger, Legendary Stafy, Earthbound Zero, and Wizardry III; all of these bypass most or all of the game, e.g. the last one does so by glitching the final quest item into a shop, then simply buying it. The Chrono Trigger run was also ruled to obsolete this non-glitched run, since both are "any%" and therefore the same branch.
Thanks. Actually, these runs being in vault is an oversight, since the Wiki: Vault page states that only 2 basic goals can be accepted to vault: any% and 100%. Recently there was an addition for runs that beat independent levelsets available from the beginning (such as chapters in DOS games). So these runs need to be moved to Moons, which was done to most of the auto-vaulted runs that appeared to have unvaultable goals.
Radiant wrote:
I'm not sure why "glitched" would be considered a separate goal. I would consider goals to be things like "any%", "100%", "pacifist", or "playaround", and each of these could be glitched or non-glitched. In addition to the Chrono Trigger run, it is generally the case that a run with the "heavy glitch abuse" tag will obsolete a run without the tag, instead of forming a separate branch; examples include Shining Soul and Spongebob.
So if this movie is glitched, it can't be vaulted (nor the feedback it got now is enough for Moons).
For what it's worth, it is likely that some or most of the negative feedback is either due to misunderstandings earlier in this thread, or predates Adelikat's post of evidence. After all, people are likely to vote when they first post in a thread, and cannot change it later.
People are asked whether or not they were entertained by the content of the run. Cheetahmen is just not the typeof the gameto enjoy. And when judging a movie on the matter of acceptability, when it appears to have an unvaultable branch, we can't "imagine" when the audience could think, or if it was honest or not. We need to rely on votes and forum posts. I don't see too much enjoyment in forum feedback about this movie either. Finally, if No and Yes votes tie, it means it's not a Moons content.
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I think it was proven that this run is valid in all terms, and must be judges as a real run. But it has a goal most people don't notice. It freaking skips half of the game!
Can someone list the runs that skip half of the game at once and are still any%? I only can remember any%'s that skip some levels from the middle to the next level start. And glitched runs either skip from the middle of the game to its end, or break the gameplay hard enough to deserve a glitched category.
So if this movie is glitched, it can't be vaulted (nor the feedback it got now is enough for Moons). And if it is not, it breaks its own goal in my eyes, since it skips half of the game.
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It most likely means "famous compared to ourselves" :D
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